Groups - 第一回: Chunk 15

Hi derek,

Have you finished doing paperworks for tax reduction? I sincerely hope that a lot of money will be refunded to you! Anyway, thank you again for sparing your precious time to invite us into the world of 红楼梦.

再四 = 再三再四 = repeatedly

静极怂级 = 静极怂(极)？= 静极思动 = When their silence reaches its extremity, people begin to change or arouse. (In this case, the chengyu 静极思动 makes sense better than 静极怂级. I guess that 级 might be a typo in the original text, otherwise it doesn’t make sense.)   

无中生有(creation from nothing)之数(destiny, logic, order, reason, rule), which suggests the animated stone.

只是到不得意时 = 不过，当你(不得意, unpleasant)的时候

P/S.

＞ In this case, the chengyu 静极思动 makes sense
＞ better than 静极怂级. I guess that 级 might be a typo
＞ in the original text, otherwise it doesn’t make sense.

On second thought, this doesn’t seem to be so plausible, since the traditional form of 极 is 極, and it does not resemble 級 (which is the traditional character of 级). The character 级 also means “class, rank, hierarchy”, and 怂 means “surprise”, and therefore 静极怂级 could be interpreted as “after long and extreme silence, people surprise hierarchy (disturb order)”, although it sounds rather far-fetched. And this just reminds me of a bolt-from-the-blue terrorist attack. Just joking.

People who can both deal with figures and language amaze me!  Thanks, Derek, for sticking with the stone in the midst of managerial tasks!

And having sensei’s comments already is real luxury.  The 再四 threw me for a while.  There are so many eliptic /shrunk expressions here --- but expecting them, really helps.

Now, if I may make things more complicated...

My first little frown came with the 那里听得进这话去.

I keep wanting to see it as 哪 裡﹣﹣I know, things are the way they are, but the present translation sounds empty, somehow. Can you give it the twist where it convinces me?

 静极怂级

I am also reading a printed  version with the alternative 静极思动。 As far as meaning goes we are all leaning into the same direction:  The wise men know that you cannot force insight. Actually I am very happy with the first suggestion: „When their silence reaches its extremity, people begin to change or arouse“.  Might one risk shifting it a bit towards: „When silence reaches its extreme – (is perfect), that is the degree (when it begins) to effect change/convince.“  ?? Ｄoesn‘t it sound ﹣in spirit﹣ like something from the 道德經 or 易經？

Thank you for all the effort invested in this shared literary adventure!

Hi liansuo,

I also don’t know clearly why the 那里 is placed at 那里, which is why I “cleverly” didn’t mention it in my previous post…hehe! And I readily admit that your opinion about 哪里 is very suggestive and insightful. Let me try to translate the sentence again in both cases.

(A) 那里…在那里他(石头)听得进这话去，乃复苦求再四
There, the stone heard from them, then asked them repeatedly…..(In this case, as you pointed out, the 那里 doesn’t have much significance.)

(B) 哪里…这石凡心已炽，他哪里听得进这话去，乃(= 甚至)复苦求再四
The stone is already determined, how could he accept the suggestion? On the contrary, he desperately asked repeatedly…..

Hmmm, it is VERY highly possible that your intuition is right. And I’ve just found in my dictionaries that the character “那” was often used in the sense of “哪”, and vice versa, before simplified characters were introduced in China.

Furthermore, the original character of 哪 was 那 in ancient Chinese, and it later changed into 哪. In other words, 那 had two main meanings in the past, i.e. both 那 (there, that) and 哪 (where, how could...). How interesting it is!

For you information, I’ve just counted the number of 哪 used in 红楼梦 and found that there were only about ten 哪 in it. More importantly, they were all interjections with two exceptions. And of course, there are a great number of 那 used in the novel, although I didn’t count them!

That means it is very possible that not a few 那 are used in 红楼梦 in the sense of 哪 (where, how could..), and readers need to properly interpret them in context. Anyway, you should be careful when translating 那 in this classic novel.

P/S. You are very smart, Liansuo sensei!

I forgot to mention 静极思动, which I also think is an appropriate phrase in this context, in the above post. Let me give you a good example to understand this phrase.

“A volcano that has been dormant for a long time erupts violently.”

Talk about wishful thinking!  On a lucky day it even helps with Classical Chinese!  Thank you for all your careful research, Changye sensei -- I realize how much time you are investing in these answers and am a bit embarrassed.

But we have a neat Brownie project now:  looking out for the 那 and 哪 in the Red Chamber!

I am still struggling with the

无中生有之数也

from derek's translation I learned that 数 is "plan" here. But I am not certain what to do with the 无中...

Hi henning,

无中生有 = 从无生有
= 从(from)无(nothing)生(create)有(matter)
= create matter from nothing (It's a kind of Big Bang!)

～ 之数也 = ～ 就是天命啊！

无中生有 is one of the theories advocated by 庄子. Interestingly, this phrase (chengyu) also has another meaning "make up a story, frame". And surprisingly, 无中生有 is the seventh tactic out of 兵法三十六计.