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Groups - 第一回: Chunk 22

Tags: 红楼梦, 第一回, 古文, classic,

Posted by henning August 10, 2008 in the Group 红楼梦 .

Comments (10) RSS
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changye says

Hi henning,

我真佩服你!我喝醉了,明天再见。

August 10, 2008 from the Web.
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liansuo says

Henning -- compliments, you must be a fast packer!!  And do not worry -- already your boil-down version is very convincing! ;)  Actually, I have been thinking, we should do that from time to time --sum up the ponderous statements and see whether they make sense in sequence.

What I like so much is the humour and the vigour of the language -- you can see the grin and the twinkle in the eye of the-- boulder.  No mean feat, very disneylike indeed!!

August 10, 2008 from the Web.
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derek says

An incredible effort Henning, dont know how you could do it so quickly!

I will try to finish the paragraph by tomorrow.

August 10, 2008 from the Web.
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changye says

Hi henning,

I've found that just “nitpicking” is a rather hard job this time, so I believe that translating this paragraph from scratch was really tough, which I thank you very much. Now let me just add supplementary explanations about words and characters. Look forward to reading derek's posting!

我师何太痴(ye2)
(ye2) = (xie2) = interrogative, irony

It is said that was originally a typo of . Interestingly, sometimes meant “father” in old Chinese, because its reading is the same as that of (ye2, father, grandpa). And therefore this might be a reason why Jesus was transliterated as (ye1, father) (su1, revive) in Chinese. I know, I know, Jesus is a CHILD of God! It’s just a wild guess.

Just for the record, 假借 is one of 六书 (Six categories of Chinese characters), as well as 象形,指事,会意,形声,转注. The relationship between and I mentioned above is an example of 假借. In the 六书, 假借 means “to borrow other character which has the same or similar pronunciation and make it have a different meaning”.

野史 (= 稗史, bai4 shi3) is the antonym of 正式 (official historiography) such as 史记,汉书 and 三国志. It’s a kind of anthology of 民间故事,街谈巷议 and 传说.

皆蹈一辙 Everyone falls into the same rut.

莫如我这不借 (this)(method, way)(thing)

不过只取其事体(= 事情)情理(人情 and 道理)罢了(而已)

再者 (furthermore), 今者 (now), 昔者 (before), 不者 (= 要不, otherwise)

市井(town, on the street)俗人喜看理治之书者甚少

讪谤君相 (君子 and 丞相等等, Emperor and ministers)

至若( = 至如 = 至于 = as for ,as to)

佳人(beautiful woman)才子(talented man)等书
才子佳人小说 is a novel category that was popular in the Qing dynasty, featuring love affairs between a beautiful woman and a talented man. I think that they were just like today’s “Korean soap operas”!

(就是)(again)千部共出一套 (= 千篇一律, They are all the same, i.e. stereotyped)

西子 (= 西施) 中国四大美女之一,They say 西施 is the most beautiful woman in Chinese history. There is a well-known saying, 情人眼里出西施. (Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.) Just for the record, my chubby dog is a 西施犬 (or 狮子狗, Shih Tzu), and her favorite saying is “Love me, love my dog”.

写出自己的两首情诗艳赋(two poems = symbolize two leading characters?)来. 首 also means "head, or leaders".

(= 一定)假拟出(invent)男女二人名姓

亦如剧中之小丑(= 然似的, just like)
鬟婢(female servant)开口即者(= 即是,就是)(also)(this = as follows)(interjection!)

= (this or not > simple-minded)

(all)(all)自相矛盾  e.g. 熟悉 (shu2 xi1, be very familiar with)

熟话 same old stories, banal stories

August 10, 2008 from the Web.
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changye says

P/S correction

非文即理 = 非此即彼 (this or that > simple-minded)

August 10, 2008 from the Web.
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henning says
Thanks for your comments, Changye and please apologize my faulty post. I am well aware that I am two levels below the rest of the members here. ;) Sitting at the Frankfurt AirPort now. Keep up the posting guys, so I have something to read when I come back!
August 10, 2008 from the Web.
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changye says

P/S 2. Correction, again.

野史(= 稗史, bai4 shi3) is the antonym of 正史 (official historiography, such as 史记,汉书 and 三国志.) It’s a kind of anthology of 民间故事,街谈巷议 and 传说.

August 11, 2008 from the Web.
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liansuo says

Impossible to respond more than globally to all the above except with the usual formulae of thanks and admiration.  I have to study it in detail.

But the part about 耶 really fascinates me.  I have always thought what you say here, Changye sensei -- and you know, the title for Jesus is "Lord" -- which is not "childlike" but very much in the vein of 耶 in the patriarchal society.  And then --- perhaps for a rainy Sunday without new anime--- who came up with these transliterations -- like "Jesus" in the case mentioned? Missionary fathers?  Because, look at the character  穌 --there is a fish and an oar of grain (Christian symbols) -- and it means "resurrect "-- this just does not look like a coincidence.  Except that there seems to be an older different way of writing it --  certainly to be found in your dictionaries.  (I am not being pious, by the way -- just etymologically fascinated.)

August 11, 2008 from the Web.
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marcelbdt says

A partial alternative:


--------------


更有一种风月笔墨,

*There are also romances*

其淫秽污臭,

*filled of foul obscenities*

屠毒笔墨,

*character murders*

(http://dict.revised.moe.edu.tw has "屠毒笔墨" = "以文詞攻擊他人,使人身敗名裂的行為")


坏人子弟,

*bad bad people*

(http://dict.revised.moe.edu.tw has the seemingly similar "風月子弟" ="在風月場所中打混的男人" -
something like "people wallowing in carnal pleasures")

又不可胜数.

*and many other such.*

至若佳人才子等书,

*as for the Korean Soaps :)*

则又千部共出一套,

*they are all the same*

且其中终不能不涉于淫滥,

*they are always smutty,*

以致满纸

 *full of*

潘安,

子建, also known as 曹植, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cao_Zhi.

西子, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xishi

文君,

*clever and beautiful people*

不过作者要写出自己的那两首情诗艳赋来,

*However, this author wants to write*

故假拟出男女二人名姓,

*hiding the names of the lovers*

又必旁出一小人其间拨乱.

*And of a person from an inferior branch of the family who causes turmoil.*

(旁出 = "side branch of family"

August 11, 2008 from the Web.
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changye says

Hi marcelbdt,

> 屠毒笔墨 "以文詞攻擊他人,使人身敗名裂的行為"

The online dictionary you introduced above is very comprehensive, which I thank you. I couldn’t find this phrase in any of my dictionaries. This should be translated as “barbed/venomous writings (remarks)”, I suppose.

坏人子弟 = 弄坏【人家子弟】
I’ve found the similar phrase “
误人子弟”, which means that 耽误[人家子弟] (waste, interfere with people’s children). This is commonly used when criticizing an incapable teacher.

不可胜数 = 不可 + (can, endure)(shu3, count) = innumerable

假拟(= 虚构, fictitious)出名姓 = invent fictional names

旁出(butt in, pop up)一小人其间拨乱
I think this line
should be translated as “a peanut butt in and .

August 11, 2008 from the Web.

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