How to use 的？

Uh ... only that I fear it!
Maybe that post can wait a bit though ... I don't want to like burn out on grammar before summer is over, hehe. And 了 is going to be so much heavier.

Thanks for sponsoring this very fruitful one!

zhenlijiang

Thanks so much.  I get your drift.  As for the 了 post, I actually don't have a burning desire for that one (yet).  However, if you have something to say, I'll gladly make one.  What do you say?

Xiaophil, I think I understand your meaning.

The general rule I brought up deals with 'relational' (is that the right term?) 的s--my mother's coworker's son's fiancee's company, that kind of sequence--and what sun758816 explained for us was about noun attributes which are each separate items in a list of modifiers.

We already know that we can drop relational (but not possessional) 的s--when the relationship is familial or an otherwise close one, or when speaking of a group or organization one belongs to.
As far as the relationals go I'm saying that where possible, you drop as many as you can, and the ones you drop tend to be the ones that come first--always, the 'sound and feel' having to be your guide.
This really is how my teacher explained it to us: 'where you can' and 'tend to be'.

The example with Changye's sentence I think shows how you often can't simply drop those 的s and still have the sentence work as is; rather you need to re-work it so that you aren't dealing with three or more 的s in one sentence to begin with.

Clearer?  Maybe not, after all!
So when are you going to put up a "how to use 了?" post?

sgn316, 你真的真的过奖了。希望有一天能说得流利，听得清楚，跟更多中国人互相加深理解。
My English is fine (it had better be; I've been a translator for over ten years now).
I'm certainly not now, but hope someday I can be an example of one who starts studying Mandarin later in life and then doesn't give up!

Sometimes 的 is equal to "of", but in english you would never say "new of red of sunroof of stretch of germany of car of his." I think that is why it is tricky for us chinese language learners. We are taught 的 is "of", and that is a useful description of it's function, but does not tell you how to use it in chinese. On the flip side I was trying to explain how to use "of" and "for" to a chinese friend.... after much futile discussion I heard my self say "You just have to get used to the patterns, eventually it will become natural." Argh!!

This discussion thread has been very helpful to examine the patterns. Thanks xiaophil and everyone!

的 is equal to of and shows what it belongs to.

The function of z  de

The function of z 

The function of z

The function of de

The function of de

The function of de

The function of

The

@zhenlijiang

确实有些意外,你的汉语说的真是太好了.英语也非常的棒.

你是一个好榜样.

@xiaophil

上句话中的"意外"你能够理解吧? ^_^

Thanks 1700!  And by the way, your English is great.  It takes time to become like a native, but you'll get there if you keep practicing.

Everybody

I was a 笨蛋.  I posted this above:

Hi everybody

I made some flascards using the idioms and sayings from above. Click here to use them.  欢迎你们来用!  (Feel free to contribute more.  I can always add to the flashcards.)

But it was supposed to be posted here.  I have too many posts!

 Hi Xiaophil

"我得到一次 意外免费的旅游机会" it's good .you can say that...

and you can say "我得到一次意外的免费的旅游的机会" 。。。you can say this too..

if you add "的"behind the 意外，免费，旅游。just emphasize 意外，免费，旅游 this three words.

sorry about my poor english!

 Hi Xiaophil

"我得到一次 意外免费的旅游机会" it's good .you can say that...

and you can say "我得到一次意外的免费的旅游的机会" 。。。you can say this too..

if you add "的"behind the 意外，免费，旅游。just emphasize 意外，免费，旅游 this three words.

sorry about my poor english!

Hi everybody

I made some flascards using the idioms and sayings from above. Click here to use them.  欢迎你们来用!  (Feel free to contribute more.  I can always add to the flashcards.)

PS: Thanks Sun!  If you ever have any English questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

hi Xiaophil,

我有一辆新的红色的汽车

yes you right, and i want to say "Chinese usually speak in disyllables, not one syllable." -------sorry

and

我有一辆新汽车

我有一辆新的红汽车

我有一辆新的红色的汽车

all ok

Sun

I think I get most of everything you said except perhaps this part:

3) Sometimes"的"can not be removed:

新的--Modern Chinese used to speak in two-syllable, not one syllable, the "新" is monosyllabic, when put the"的"can make the whole a two-syllable, which is consistent with the language habits, and, this is for the situation when a sentences have many attributives. However, if There is only one attribute, you can say"一个新汽车"、"一栋旧楼"。

I think you mean, "Chinese usually speak in disyllables, not one syllable."  (You said ‘used to', which means the situation is no longer true.)  Now from what you said, I take it I can say, "我有一辆新汽车," but if I add 红色的 to this sentence, I have to add 的 to 新, i.e. "我有一辆新的红色的汽车."  Am I right?

Zhenlijiang

So what you are saying is, if there are a string of attributives, and we determine that none of the attributives are special cases that require 的, then the only 的 that is needed is the one that comes before the noun.  Do you get my meaning?  Is that right?

Ｔｈａｎｋｓ　ａｇａｉｎ　ｅｖｅｒｙｂｏｄｙ！

"的" sometimes stands for the ownership...

"的" usually makes noun to be a adj or adv (could be neglected)...

"红色"--noun，“红色的”--adj...

“我”->"我的"---ownership...

In addition to sun758816's great posting above, here is a rough rule for placement order of modifiers I heard somewhere before.

(1) possessive modifier 我的
(2) measure word 一辆
(3) superficial characteristic modifier 新的红色
(4) essential characteristic modifier 日本
(5) noun 汽车

The below example also "roughly" follows this rule.

他的/一辆/新的红色的有天窗的/加长型德国汽车。

Changye, I thought of that too later, yes. Shorter and better (provided that that is the nuance you want to convey).

小李，他老板的姐姐的朋友是个日本人。
小李，他老板的姐姐有一个朋友，是个日本人。
小李，他老板的姐姐有一个日本朋友。

The way these sentences are written implies, it seems to me, that people are talking about who among them or their circle of acquaintances has/had a Japanese friend. And one of them thinks of XiaoLi.
Oh you know XiaoLi--his boss's (agh, how do you do this? does Strunk and White tell you?? too lazy now to get up and look it up) older sister has a Japanese friend.

Almost as if it were remarkable, to befriend a Japanese, hahaha.
(OK that's reading too much into it, I know)

Hi zhenlijiang

Thanks! That's a very clever solution. Actually, finding another way to say the same thing is often the best way to reduce the number of 的 used in a sentence. How about this one?

小李，他老板的姐姐有一个日本朋友。

sgn316  是啊，感到意外吗？　　（＾ｖ＾）

Xiaophil, going back yet again on what I said re 意外.
☝ is an example of how it can 的-lessly be an Adj, isn't it.
And what do you mean you don't deserve a thorough explanation?
All Chinese language and grammar questions deserve utmost attention here!

Pete, I am glad you left a note encouraging this (kind of) discussion. 
I think we enjoy it, don't consider it labor, but support from CPod staff is appreciated!

Wow! sun758816, orangina, athrun200, sgn316, changye, zhenlijiang and last but not least the illustrious Pete (I do hope I got everyone), thanks again for all the help.  I really don't deserve such a thorough explanation, so I hope it is useful to others besides me.  It is almost bed time, so I can't sift through this all now, but I will do so tomorrow.  Have a good night (or morning or afternoon, depending on where you are at.)

@zhenlijiang 

哇...你是日本人?

Pete, 我也是个很爱读词典的 nerd, and I too of course advocate dictionary use.
I mention goulnik's News because he always lists the vocab and says (here) the term is used meaning XX, and is XX part of speech. It's very clear and helpful, and I don't know the technical aspect of it but didn't seem too hard to achieve in CPod vocab lists.
And I agree, there's a lot of good info here.

Hi xiaophil,

The decision not to include the part of speech for words on the vocab lists was a conscious one. Many words can take multiple roles （ex: 发现 is both the verb "to discover" and the noun "discovery"). Even more confusing are things like 有 which can be "to have," "there are/is", or can be combined with other verbs--我没有听懂。How would we classify such a word?

Tricky, ambiguous words like this are very common. It's more helpful for learners to understand them as they appear in a particular dialogue.

Our vocab lists are basically intended to show you how each word is used in a lesson. When that usage is different from its most common usage, we point out the more common usage as well.

To really learn all you need to know about each word, we strongly recommend using a dictionary. This is obviously a lot of work, but it is an unavoidable part of language learning. And in my experience, it's actually kind of fun. But then, I'm a bit of a nerd.

To everyone who has participated in this discussion,

Thank you all for your conscientious contributions. There is a lot of good information being exchanged on this page.

We covered this in a class two years ago, I dug and found my notes. Given that developing an ear for the language is what we have to do, the pointer we were given is that in such a series of multiple 的s, generally the first 的s in order of appearance are the first we can let go, leaving the last one(s) till the end. And it seems obvious, but the other unmentioned rule is that your meaning needs to still be understood after you've dropped the 的s.

So with a phrase like
我的高中的同学的妈妈
I guess you could drop the first two:  我高中同学的妈妈

However with the sentence Changye brought up
小李的老板的姐姐的朋友是个日本人。
it is a problem, as you're not talking about yourself but about a third person. So yeah I guess here, you can't really drop any of them. You might choose to split it up into two sentences, or depending on what the point of your saying this is, you might also do something like
小李，他老板的姐姐的朋友是个日本人。   or even
小李，他老板的姐姐有一个朋友，是个日本人。

I guess I'm saying that I would prefer, even if that means a longer sentence and more words, to avoid the serial 的s.

Xiaophil, regarding 意外, I believe athrun200 means 'make an adjective out of', not 'emphasize' really in this case. And I didn't make my point well. I should have said not that contextual support is needed for the meaning to be clear, but that you need the 的 for this word to be the adjective 'unexpected'.
Like you've said, I've suggested too before, that CPod lesson vocab lists indicate part of speech (in the lesson context, like goulnik does in his News-- where we can see it doesn't take much space).

sun758816, that chunk about the multiple attributives describing a noun is really helpful, cheers!

Hi xiophil

Sorry for do not have enough time to write the whole things out yesterday, now here it is:

“的”Usage

1, for the attribution: xiaophil

我的爸爸，我的叔叔，姐姐朋友……for people, if have a good relationship,do not have to say“的”。 such as “我朋友”, often in the north, this means“我男朋友/我女朋友”.

他的电脑，老王的狗……for things and animals, must have“的”.

2, use in the structure of the attributive - Please take your time to read:

Attributive + 的 + noun

Learning Chinese friends Note: In Chinese, this structure is the most commonly used! ! this structure infact stand for a noun：

(Attributive + 的 + noun1) ≈ noun1

Or: （Attributive 1+ Attributive 2+ Attributive 3+……+的+ noun1）≈noun1

eg: 红色的汽车 新的汽车 德国的汽车……these thing all talk about car, so Chinese people often say:

他买了一辆新的红色德国汽车。Instead of: 他买了一辆新的红色的德国的汽车。

他买了一辆新的红色的有天窗的加长型德国汽车。 Instead of: 他买了一辆新的红色的有天窗的加长型的德国的汽车。

Here, we should pay attention to:

1) the order of attributive: 新旧→颜色→性状→国籍……Of course, this order is not very strict

2) use“的”as less as possible, such sentences have a lot of attributive, if keep a lot of “的”will make it sounds long-winded.

3) Sometimes“的”can not be removed:

新的——Modern Chinese used to speak in two-syllable, not one syllable, the "新" is monosyllabic, when put the“的”can make the whole a two-syllable, which is consistent with the language habits, and, this is for the situation when a sentences have many attributives. However, if There is only one attribute, you can say“一个新汽车”、“一栋旧楼”。

红色的——to emphasize the color of car, this “的”don’t have always to say, but if you do not speak,the “red” will not be stressed. Here, is better to have it then not.

有天窗的——“有 天窗”This attributive in fact is a small “verb object” structure, if you directly put it into the larger sentence structure, it will sounds very confuse; but with a “的”, the level syntax can be marked clearly.

Back, 我 得到 一次意外的免费旅游机会。——意外的，这个“的”emphasis on "意外".

Hi xiophil

I'll show you my own rule for the usage of 的. When you're not sure if you should put 的, it's recommended you should put it. At least, you can show the meaning more clearly by putting 的, even if it makes the phrase look a little clumsy.

At least I know I'm not alone.  Now that I know there isn't a concrete rule, I can at least know I have an excuse for writing incorrectly.  Incidentally, can you share the rule of thumb?  (Only if it is convenient.)

"To put 的 or not to put 的" is always a big headache for us learners of Mandarin, along with the "了" problem. I usually try to use only one 的 in a phrase, or at most two. I hate to see more than three 的s in one Chinese phrase, but sometimes it's inevitable, like "小李的老板的姐姐的朋友是个日本人". One of my grammar books shows a rule of thumb, but it's followed by a remark such as "However, you need to develop a feeling of Chinese language in order to correctly use 的". Looks like there is a long way to go.

athrun200

Actually, I guess I do have another question.  Do you mean emphasize or transform, i.e. is 的 required to make a non-adjective into an adjective?

Anyway, this got me thinking.  If 的 is used to emphasize a non-adjective is acting as an adjective, it would be helpful to know a word's function.  ChinesePod's vocabulary lists never mention the function of the words.  Maybe ChinesePod should start doing this (wink, wink staff).

Yeah, you did mention that.  I should have thought more carefully before responding.  Thanks!

also
some word in chinese have totally different meaning between adj and n

e.g.  意外=accident(n)
       意外的= unexpected (adj)

As I said 的 is to emphasise the word is adj
e.g. 期待=expect(v)
      期待的=expected(adj)

sometime you can consider 的=ed
just in english, we add "ed" behind some words to make it becomes adj

zhenlijiang

Could be, but actually, I don't see how 的 would make it any easier to comprehend.  I figure the problem is my fault, though.  Maybe if I give my head a rest, it will all sink in.

Xiaophil, I think it's because those words 免费、旅游、机会 are all easy to understand the meaning of (not really possible to think of any other meanings), whereas 意外 is subjective--unexpected according to the speaker--and requires the contextual support to indicate if it is indeed "unexpected", or "an accident".

Thanks sun758816

Actually, my problem is I don't understand why there is a 的 behind 意外 but not 免费, 旅游, and 机会.  For example, can we say, "我得到一次 意外免费的旅游机会"?  Do you (or somebody else) have an explanation?

take care,

the two "de" in the two sentances are diffrent,

in daily spoken,

我  有   一次意外的免费旅游机会。——is ok

我   得到   一次 意外的 免费 旅游机会

S  Verb   --------object----------

or

我    意外地 得到    一次 免费 旅游机会

S   adj 地 Verb  --------object----------

两个都可以。

谢谢大家！我刚才把你们一切评论看完了，大概的意思我看得懂。

My email is athrun200@yahoo.com.hk
You can mail me if you have any question

I am going to school now
See you guys later

@athrun200

我要出去一下. 有机会我们再聊. 如果你想聊天,可以给我发e-mail..  sgn316@gmail.com  很高兴认识你! 嘿嘿.

@xiaophil

 I got to go. If you have any questions ,you can e-mail me. My e-mail address is ' sgn316@gmail.com'

@athrun200

国内比较流行的是搜狗拼音法, 不知道你会不会汉语拼音.

据我了解,台湾地区用注音法多一些.

@xiaophil

It's a quite difficult question for me. but i think you can say " 我有一次免费旅游的机会" if you want to emphasize "unexpected". you can use two sentences to express it. 我英语很烂.见谅..呵呵.

In fact, 意外can mean "accident" in Chinese too.
e.g.  an accident occur=意外發生了

So 我有意外免费旅游的机会? cause some misunderstand.

I think
我有一個意想不到的免費旅遊機會
is better

我有一個=I have an

意想不到的=unexpected(adj)
免費= free
旅遊機會 =traveling opportunity

Thanks guys.  I was surprised to see so much help in a short amount of time.  Yes, I can read what you guys said, but as I am in a hurry, I haven't completely absorbed all that has been said.

How about this sentence: I have an unexpected free traveling opportunity.  No, it isn't very graceful, but it still can be said.  Can I say this: 我有意外免费旅游的机会?

I'll check back later.  Thanks again!

我用的叫做 倉頡
在香港大部分人是用倉頡或者速成的
只有少部分人用注音法

他們的注音法好像是廣東話的注音
我未用過,不太清楚

恩,我也能看懂繁體字. 我用的輸入法既能輸入簡體,也能輸入繁體. 你打字的時候用拼音法還是注音法?

那麼 sgn316 你看不看懂繁體中文?

会看就非常好了. 普通话在国内普及度越来越广. 想到内地投资发展,或者旅游. 学学普通话还是很好的.  :)

我是香港人
很久也沒有說普通話
已經差不多忘掉怎樣說

所以我來這裡也是學普通話的
還有我不懂寫簡體中文
但我會看

@xiaophil 

您能看懂我和athrun200的谈话吗?

我来自上海, 您是香港人还是住在香港的外国朋友?

我只不過覺得比較通順而已.
我從不按语法规则来寫的. 哈哈
sgn316 你住在中國哪一個地方?
我是住在香港的

'意外地' 按语法规则来讲是副词. 修饰动词'得到'. 你的语法很好.呵呵.

是的,和你们一样.我也是为了学习语言. 不过我是来学习英语的.

lol

arthrun200

thanks! I didn't do too bad, could do better... that is a good place to be!

orangina

It is better to say 我有意外的机会免费旅游 instead of 我有意外的机会旅游免费的.

Because Chinese usually put adjectives in front of the nouns.

我意外的得到了一次免费旅游的机会.

Wow! It is a very good sentence to express "I have unexpectedly got an opportunity to travel for free."

But it is better to say 我意外地得到了一次免费旅游的机会. I think

You can even translate it better than me.
sgn316, are you Chinese ?

"I have unexpectedly got an opportunity to travel for free."

我 想不到 我能有一個免費的旅遊機會

我= I
想不到= Can't imagine

我能= I can
有一個= have a
免費= Free
旅遊機會= chance of travel


So 免費的旅遊機會= travel for free

The的 of 免費的 is to emphasize it is a adjective

免費的旅遊 can be express as 旅遊是免費的(this travel is free)

Sometime 的is to emphasize it is adjective
e.g.  XX的(xx can be anyword)

Then the word probably is a adjective

我意外的得到了一次免费旅游的机会.

I think I would inexpert的 say: 我有意外的机会旅游免费的。

Together, we will figure out 的。

I live in Hong Kong and use Chinese everyday. So let me tell you how to use 的.

His pen=他的筆
If you miss 的i.e. 他筆= He pen

Mary's lunch=Mary的午餐

So 的 can represent " 's "

Tom's = Tom 的
his= 他的
her=她的

It is the simple use of 的

by the way what do you mean 我 有意的免费的旅游的机会 in English? I can't get you meaning.

Can you say it in English and I help you to translate?

oragina

Perhaps, um, the problem is I forgot a character.

Should be: 我有外意的免费的旅游的机会.

I'm trying to say, "I have unexpectedly got an opportunity to travel for free."

How fun.  We are commenting on each other's 的 posts.

oh! also if the modifier is only one character you don't need 的。

I think the no 的 for close relationships only applies to people. But if you have a long string of modifiers you only need the 的 just before the noun... but using it between the modifiers is not wrong. But I am not entirely sure what your sentance means (probably says more about my skills than yours.) Can you give me the english?

Okay, I'll talk to myself for a minute. 

I know that we don't need to place 的 between 我 and 妈妈. I have been told before it is because the 的 would imply a weaker relationship between the mother and I. Perhaps this is it: if a strong relationship has been established between modifier and noun, then the 的 becomes unnecessary.  Right?  Are there any other factors?