Open letter to the Chinese language

Orangina hehe,yeah nice dori philosophy,but i wouldn't want her memory

Whoah! I certainly am pleased that I struck a chord for you Daniel, but zhen knows me so well it seems, my writer's 'prayer' was not really an offering to Kali! (But then when all's said and done, all aspects of the divine are probably coming from the same source, aren't they?)

Truth is, I'm too 浪漫 for my own good! Doesn't get me anywhere! Mandarin generally only speaks to me in dream! But I hope zhen will go on talking sense to me, that I do need! ;)

daniel70, Tal would be pleased I imagine--even if it wasn't a Kali-esque woman he had in mind. Writers, once they publish, fully expect their readers to go off and do their own thing with what they take away from a story, don't they. I too am an appreciative reader, even though I am 不浪漫 and able only to talk sense much of the time (that's called 'being female').

If I may,

The reason I like Tal's characterization is her ambivalence. The impossible question "are you sure you know what you're doing?", followed by the rhetorical "maybe I'm too alien for you." The childlike bravado of the answer "maybe not," a defiant answer to a question half understand. "aren't you just a language." More ambivalence. The unfathomable nature of the creature with dark pools for eyes. Personified as a woman, but not like any I've ever known, or ever will know. Alive, but not a life, the life-breath of billions of lives and thousands of years. Kali.

If you're planning to kick her ass, you may be trapped in the veil of Maya.

Apologies to Tal for taking such liberties with his dream.

Simon,

You obviously have a very effective study technique, which works well for you, but I just want to share a thought.  I find that working on any one aspect of learning Chinese (reading,writing,speaking,listening) helps reinforce all the others, and increases the rate of progress of all the rest of them.  I don't think studying one comes at the expense of any of the others.

xiaohu:

This was my first attempt writing in Chinese, but I've been studying the language for some time. Speaking and writing is not part of my study method. I find it a waste of time at the level I'm at. Right now I'm learning. When I come to China in March, I will have plenty of practice with expressing things in Chinese. Until then, I'm trying to maximize the efficiency of my study time, and I'd rather spend hours on end studying vocabulary now than do it when I'm in China (I'll only be there for a year). If I've got a large vocab and a good passive understanding when I get there, I have no doubt my active skills will improve fast enough.

I'm very pleased with the progress I'm making with this method. When I'm in China, and after I get back, I might start writing in Chinese on these forums. But until then, I'm afraid this is the only Chinese post you'll see from me. :)

simonpettersson

So your right, it was Lao Tzu!

I take it this wasn't your first step writing something in Chinese?

You've reached the summit of one mountain, are you ready to climb another?

Hi simon

Congratulations on your debut on John's blog "Sinosplice"!!

A Message to Mandarin
http://www.sinosplice.com/life/archives/2009/12/08/a-message-to-mandarin#comments

Hi simon

Just interesting. I heard the similar thing happened in the history of French, but in French the masculine and neutral merged, both of which originated in Latin. German should've merged all the three genders, hehe!

In ancient times, there were three, as in German today, but at some point the masculine and feminine merged together to form one

Hey orangina, I believe in that dori philosophy too. And apparently Confucius also said: It doesn't matter how slowly you go - so long as you do not stop!

And zhen you're talking sense too as usual. But you know how we drew animals on cave walls way back when? It was the shaman's job to find the path to the spirit world, and the path home, and I'm still on that journey. ;)

Hi Simon,

In fact, "language" in french could also be masculine (un langage) : "le langage des fleurs" (the language of flowers 花语) "le langage de la raison" (the voice of reason 理智的声音).

Feminine

langue

Masculine

langage / dialecte / patois / pidgin / argot

baba, sure, the memory had drawbacks, but she could speak whale and read english. Not to bad, I say.

Changye: In Swedish there are two genders: "utrum" (sometimes called "common gender" in English) and "neutrum" (neuter). In ancient times, there were three, as in German today, but at some point the masculine and feminine merged together to form one, which is called "utrum" by Swedish linguists. "Utrum" means "one (of the two)", whereas "neutrum" means "neither".

I guess you could call them "either" and "neither". :)

Orangina

hehe,yeah nice dori philosophy,but i wouldn't want her memory

Hi simon

In Swedish, by the way, "Kinesiska" is utrum, which is both male and female merged together into a single gender.

Is "utrum" a kind of "neuter noun"?

It seems the same is true in German. "Sprache" (language) is feminine. Guys, thanks for a piece of interesting information

kimiik, yeah, but I think that famous example is bull. If that counts, then Chinese is also feminine: "la langue des Chinois". :)

EDIT: You added that last bit as I was writing! Anyway, it's pretty weird how the word "language" is feminine, but the languages themselves are masculine.

Hi simon

If so, you'd better not to write a love letter to "中文" in French, hehe.

Hi Simon,

Sorry there's a famous exception to the rule. The sign language is called "la langue des signes".

In the same way, you can also use "la langue française" or "la  langue chinoise" to speak about literature.

According to this guy Chinese is surprisingly easy...so maybe Mandarin is your friend really?!

http://www.educationreview.org/education/mandarin-chinese-is-surprisingly-easy-future-tense-verbs/

In Swedish, by the way, "Kinesiska" is utrum, which is both male and female merged together into a single gender.

In French, all languages are male. "Le Chinois".

Hi zhenlijiang

Your claim makes sense. Now I know why "Chinesisch" is a neuter noun in German. What about in French?

Yeah actually I don't see a person, male or female, in Mandarin. To me it is a foreign language and my interest in it is not romantic (fighting, loving, accepting the position of slave).

I guess what I mean is that any love-hate or fear-awe or slave-master "relationship with Mandarin" is all one-way. No matter how strongly or deeply we may feel and give of ourselves there isn't anybody out there to reciprocate or acknowledge. The 对象 has no emotions.

We each find our own reward in this pursuit though.

I empathize with the attitudes expressed by Henning, and Orangina.

haha, zhen, good point!

I have been giving this some thought... I like the romance of tal's vision, and I like the never say die attitude of simonpettersson's letter. But when it comes right down to it my philosophy is closer to henning's.

I was watching Finding Nemo one day and decided that's it! Dori is my mentor. "Just keep swimming, swimming, swimming. What do we do? We swim! swimming, swimming..." "You speak whale? I wish I could speak whale..." Really, just contentedly going in the right direction and being numb to the pain seems like the best route to me. I am not out to prove anything. I just want to speak Mandarin, that is all. But I am not in a race to learn it fastest.

zhenlijiang, like I said, she has a thousand faces. She is a love to a lover, an opponent to a fighter and a mistress to a ... ahem, nevermind. :)

The last thing Mandarin wants is to fight or befriend you. The only way she will associate with you is if you become her slave. And slaves die but they can't retire.

Surely we all know this?

xiaohu: My mandarin learning journey began some time ago and I'm taking steps every day. This was not a step. This was climbing a mountain to see how far I've come. (Also, I believe that quote is from Lao Zi, not Confucious).

baba: I respect a man who knows his Bruce Lee. The bit you quote can certainly be used for language learning. Here's how I'd paraphrase it:

Before I learned Mandarin, a character was just a character and a tone was just a tone. When I studied Mandarin, a character was no longer just a character and a tone was no longer just a tone. Now I understand Mandarin, and a character is just a character and a tone is just a tone.

In the context of this discussion, I'd sooner use the line "Always move with a purpose". That's what I'm trying to do here.

tal_: The Mandarin you know is not the Mandarin I know; she has a thousand faces. To a lover like yourself, she is the ultimate love affair. To a fighter like me, she is the ultimate fight.

For what it's worth, I never mailed that letter to Mandarin. I would never dare, I respect her too much. It was meant for me, not for her.

Guys, are you serious? She is the oldest "woman" in the world!

I agree! I want to be friends with Mandarin, she just takes time to get to know.

You're welcome! *bows*

You're right bodawei, wooing not whacking!

Tal ... I really enjoyed that post ... thank you!

This woman needs to wooed, not whacked.  

We're all different.  

Hey RJ,

Mandarin is definitely a woman, for me anyway. I think she even spoke to me in a dream once. I'd guess that's the only place she'll break the existential silence!

I'd been browsing in the National Gallery, and then suddenly I was in Trafalgar Square. There she was, sitting by the fountain, dressed in some kind of smoky black ethnic jacket with tiny gold buttons, but her skirt was long and looked like blue silk. On her lap she cradled a zither, which twanged listlessly. She seemed to be tuning it.

"I heard you were looking for me," she said, only looking up for a moment, her attention fixed on the sound of one tingling string.

"It's true I've been thinking about you," I replied, "but I never expected to find you here."

"I get out and about these days. They used to crush my feet and squeeze them into tiny shoes so I could barely walk, but right now I'm breaking the bonds." And then for the first time she looked me full in the face and smiled, and I was awed by the dark pools of her eyes, her long shining hair gathered in a braid on one shoulder.

"Are you sure you know what you're doing?" she asked. "Maybe I'm too alien for you."

"Maybe not," I said, but actually I wasn't sure which sentence I was answering. "Anyway, aren't you just a language?"

"That's an easy mistake to make," she said, and then music began. It was coming from the instrument she held of course, and to my surprise I recognized it. 在那遥远的地方. Such a pretty tune.

Your turn!

Actually,I loved the gritty die hard attitude in this post.Jiayou Simon.But I think Henning has a good point.Some folk [ok not you Simon] may get dispirited if they become too results/progress focussed.His comment reminded me of the famous Bruce Lee quote [which I think you may appreciate Simon]:

"Before I learned martial arts, a punch was just a punch and a kick was just a kick. When I studied martial arts, a punch was no longer just a punch and a kick was no longer just a kick. Now I understand martial arts, and a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick."

Lee had many other quotes about the mind being blank in a fight.Boy he not only had the moves but he also was in the zone mentally.

simonpettersson

Pretty good, pretty good!  很不错！Obviously a few errors, but at least your making an attempt (and a very good one at that) which is great!

As Confucious said, A journey of a thousand miles begins in one step.

千里之行，始于足下

A couple of notes,

1- You can call "Mandarin" 普通话, 国语，中文 and 中国话 if you want to change it up a bit.

2- In keeping with the poetic spirit, you might want to stay away from the word 您 nín, because it's the formal way to say it, better to stick with the less formal 你 nǐ.

3- Be aware that in Chinese the possessive particle 的 works in reverse of the English "of", so it's better to always equate that in your mind to the English apostrophe S ('s).  Also it works to modify whole phrases, so it acually works like the English structure, "the...that", IE: 我知道您打死了所有的人来跟您打架 you need to change to the following, 我知道你已经把所有来跟你打架的人都给打败了。

IE: I know you've defeated all the people that have come to fight you.

A better way to say it might be, 我知道所有来的挑战者都已经被你打败了。(Passive structure: every challenger has been defeated by you)

Oh and you need to use 不 for the negative instead of 部.

Those are some things that stick out to me at first, I'm at work right now, so I can go over it in more detail later.  Overall, extremely good first effort. I'm definately impressed!

You will learn much young grasshopper. hehe

Today was not a good day, either, but I couldn't very well put it off anymore, could I? This has made me neglect my Mandarin studies a bit today.

Now, keep in mind that this is the first time I've ever tried to express something in Mandarin or use it to communicate.

I'm sure anyone who can be bothered can find several places where I had to do some reformulation in order to express what I wanted to say with the words I know. There are also places where I got a bit experimental, and one place (the French b*tch) where I couldn't help myself but do a direct translation.

(I have not proofread. Errors are likely abundant. I need to sleep.)

普通话，您很害怕， 是不是？ 您已经有一身汉。您听说我二十岁当时就踩死了英文。您自己看到了我跟法文的打架，看到了发生什么事情。法文现在是我的泼妇。那，普通话，我现在来找您。

我知道您感觉您是世界上的最有权力。我知道您打死了所有的人来跟您打架。您连我也给很严重的伤口，让我很久部来找您。但是我可不是像别人一样。我部会停止，每天都给我更多的权力。您从来没遇到我人之类。还有，您在开始明白了。

您把所有的困难放在我的路上，我都能跨越。您跑掉了，可是您感觉了我越来越近地走。现在您试试让我看不到了您，但我听得到您的呼吸。我来找您， 我找得到您的时候，就发生什么不太好看的。我要用我所有的能耐来给您多么痛。您才求求我了我就助手。

您给过我好多的疼，但是我总是坚持，每次回来的时候，有多一点劲儿。因为我是MUY MACHO，您给我什么，我就还给什么。您在赢战斗，但是最终，我要跨越。

您看得到我，是不是？您害怕。应该的，普通话。应该的。

In defense of my friend Mandarin:

Mandarin has been a great companion on my language learning journey. Mandarin does not want enemies; it wants friends.

I am convinced that strong feelings don't help. If you play "mind games" (as John put it) think about how many real players there are in that game. There certainly is one loser.

Only when you reach that state of devine indifference towards your progress you are ready for the fate of eternally trotting forward. Let your mind go blank.

simonpettersson

I'm looking forward to seeing your Mandarin version.

加油！

Tal,

So Mandarin is a woman you say. Hmmm, I would have written it differently then. Existential silence indeed. Glad to see you are feeling better.

Hmm... well simon it seems I owe you an apology. My earlier assessment of your post was clearly wrong.

What at first I took to be a piece of vulgar, self-indulgent, juvenile drivel, is actually some kind of sublime 'street poetry', worthy of being praised and immortalised on Teach's blog! Well done old sport!

Now I am indeed breathlessly hoping that Mandarin gets back to you, but if she's really got any class her response may well be an existential silence.

I'm famous!

John, that's pretty cool of you.  By the way, I thought it was funny that it mentions you have been in China for 9.3 years.  So exact!  Go ahead--say you have been in China for 10 years.  I think you've earned it.  Haha.

Simon,

I wrote about this post on my blog.  I hope that's OK!

There is no way I have time for this today. Not one way. However, probably tomorrow.

加油！

Tell you what, xiaophil, I have to go to work now, but before I go to bed tonight, I'll write this up to the best of my ability, without using a dictionary. It'll give me a good measure of where my Chinese is at the moment.

Ha great letter! Looking forward to reading the Chinese version :)

Hi xiaophil

I believe that simon will be able to write this letter in good Chinese in one year or so. What an awesome guy he really is!

This post is really amazing.  I gotta say, though, I don't think Mandarin hears you very well because you ain't speakin' her language.  You gotta imagine the first time the Romans called out to the Gauls to surrender, they had no idea what the other was saying. You have to say it clearly on her turf.  Rewrite it in Mandarin, dude! 哈哈哈

Ha ha, great post. The mental game is essential.

加油！

I would say you are experienced. Good luck with your studies in Foshan. I did post a link to some pictures and videos here that you might find interesting, if you have never seen them.

http://chinesepod.com/community/conversations/post/4945

It depends on how you look at it. I've been practicing martial arts for about nine years, so in that regard, I'm not really a novice. However, during these nine years, only six months were spent training wing chun. So with regards to that particular style, I'm still very much a novice. I was, however, very impressed with the style's no-nonsense philosophy and its practice methods. I've long been wanting to reacquaint myself with the style, but there are no teachers in my vicinity.

Simon,

Hmmm, talk to me after you get to Foshan. I have spent some time in Foshan btw and it is a nice place. I like Foshan very much. They do have a marital arts history there. So are you practicing martial arts now, or do you enter Foshan as a novice?

掌聲鼓勵！你學中文的能力令我非常驚訝。我覺得你什麼語言都會學得很好。我希望你到了中國後一切如意。

christian,

hehe,excellent observation.Yeah,classic scene.Looking at that again now it's amazing how young De Niro looks,and for a sec he reminded me of Tom Cruise.

无聊。

simonpettersson, you should save some of this attitude for the southern-style Kung Fu you're going to take, especially when your shifu has been taking it since he was 5.....

I can imagine you saying this to the mirror every morning à la Taxi Driver...