The Jenny Zhu Show - China Street Smart with John Chan

Check most dictionaries, you will get someting like '懂得城市生存之道’ （knowledge to survice in an urban environment' for 'street smart'. It's far too awkward a translation to be useful. I've seen it translated as街头智慧/jie1 tou2 zhi4 hui4, which is quite colloquail, but still doesn't fully convey the meaning and somehow suggests a thuggish kind of street knowledge. I think maybe the less colorful word 灵活/ling2 huo2/flexible, adaptive works well in this context.

This show was a great idea.  Not only do I live here as an expat and struggle with language, but the hope is to encounter more and more work and cultural successes too.  This show was made with me in mind (not on purpose I'm sure).

Beijing vs. Shanghai is a very interesting topic to me.  I chose a life here in Beijing, but I often think about switching to China's other big city.  I wonder if Shanghai life would be more suitable to my personality.  I wonder of Shanghaihua might be more understandable than Beijinghua. Is the expat scene different?  Etc.,etc., etc. I'll bet a show on this subject would be really great.

Thanks for everything Jenny.  Your enthusiasm, ambition and energy have made Chinesepod great for me since I first joined.  Good luck with this show.

@quasifrog,

Thank you so much for your kind words and great show idea. A friend of mine has a brilliant observation about Shanghai and Bejing, 'Shanghai makes Chinese foreigners, Beijing makes foreigners Chinese'.  I think many will nod with a smile.

Hi Jenny,

Congratulations on your new show. Here's wishing you a long, successful run.

@John Chan

Thanks for your insight! Great interview!

Do you speak Chinese? If so, what was your experience learning it for all these years?

Can you give some advice when a business is faced with a sketchy deal? You said not to focus on the negative, or more so not to dwell on the negative. However pollution and corruption are a reality and have been going unchecked for years.

Thanks,

@Jenny

Will there be any interviews in Chinese? Or is the target audience only English speakers?...

Great interview...Have been here 5 years now, but still learnt a lot from that discussion!

Hi Jenny

Thanks for the great interview with John Chan.  (And thank you too, John.)

I felt John sort of avoided dealing with the question, "Where do you draw the line?"  I wish he would have confronted ethics problems here, but I understand that maybe that is a bit much for a short interview. 

Anyway, it got me thinking about my (Chinese) wife's work.  She works for a foreign company.  She says that many of the workers say that the foreign bosses were pretty upright right after arriving in China, but over time they slowly got corrupted.  Just from a personal conduct standpoint, one married a bar girl (aka prostitute), and another has a mistress.  This is quite public knowledge, except for the wife and family in his homeland I presume.  Who knows if they are corrupted financially wise, but given how Chinese mid-level managers there seem to think bribes are a part of their salary, I guess those foreigners might be padding their pockets as well. 

Because of the riciculous behavior of these people, my wife says many of the workers openly say, "I hate foreigners."  To be honest, it pisses me off too.  I hate being lumped in with these immoral bastards. 

So I'm like xuchen, I would like to hear John's views on ethics.  Even if John doesn't stop in to comment, I would be interested in other people's experiences.

PS: Street smarts would be 街头智慧, right?

Jenny thanks for the show.  I hope it has a good long run.  

Jenny and all ChinesePod team,

Thank you very much for the idea of this show. I have just started a Guided subscription and, besides the assigned lessons every week, I plan to listen to this show for sure! It is very, very interesting.

Greetings from Spain!

@xiaophil I too agree to a certain degree that immoral behavior by a certain foreign element could make the rest of us look bad... BUT...

1. As long as you yourself set a good example, are confident that you are a good person and act morally (despite moral compasses varying from culture to culture) then other foreigners' behavior shoudln't effect you. Self-confidence is key.

2. What is wrong with someone marrying a bar girl? One could even argue that the man who marries the bar-girl is more open minded and tolerant than one who wouldn't - and has a bigger back-bone considering the flack they are bound to cop.

3. I don't think one can really compare the actions of foreigners and Chinese people when it comes to extramarital affairs, licentious behavior, and houses of ill repute - there are elements in every society that partake in such activities. Moreover in China having affairs, attending KTV clubs and 'saunas' is much more out in the open than the West - and from what I hear, the biggest market for these establishments is the local market.

Thanks Jenny, I liked that.

That attitude is everything is good advice. I like what he said about turning negatives to your advantage.

Its like the word crisis in chinese is 危机, first character 危 means danger second character means opportunity. There are two sides to everything, you just have to be able to see the opportunity.

Its so easy to get bogged down in negatives. While looking for articles on 王安石 recently, I randomly came across this article on Wang Shi, I think he is a perfect example of positive attitude. Although he isnt an expat.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-01/09/content_7381707.htm

Wow Matt!  That's some very enlightened thought from a technical guy.  You're like a poet-engineer.  Some of the most memorable women I have ever known were met in bars.  Never met one in a sauna though.

xiaophill I think matt pretty much said it, these people that say they hate foreigners for being sleazy are just feeding their own racist preconceptions.

These days I dont know what to believe. I used to think that as soon as a chinese male gets rich they take on a mistress, and that the majority went to the hairdresses but not for haircuts. But I soon realised that this kind of thinking is precisely what leads to foreigners becoming corrupted, they 'think' that all the chinese do it, so its alright for them to follow suit. This is a gross mistake though. Actually its quite likely that most chinese husbands are faithful to there wives, even after they have a bit of spare cash. I might be wrong though...no stats, just my biased-catalogued observations.

Jenny what do you think honestly?

quasifrog

I am sure they were memorable for their edifying conversation and deep knowledge of the universe.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

What's a bar pickup without establishing a better grasp of the universe?

:)

Hi Matt

About number one.  Yup, I agree, but... 'is' and 'should' are two different things.  It is without a doubt that some people will dislike certain other people, no matter how honest and upright those certain people are, due to association.  In this case, I resent both people who started this and the people who are now unfairly judging.  That said, please understand this isn't a burning issue with me.  I don't lose sleep and walk around with rage and paranoia about it.  Still, it is displeasing.

I had to pause and think about number 2.  Actually, I can't say your reasoning is wrong (although I do find something troubling that I haven't quite pinpointed).  But I guess I would have to say you would have to know the entire background.  If it was just the prostitute issue, maybe I would say, yeah, you are right.  But these guys I'm talking about leave a trail of bad behavior.  I guess for time consideration, I'll have to leave it at that.

As for three, yep again.  Actually, I am equally offended by this behavior by anyone from anywhere.  But the topic is about foreigners doing business in China, so I thought I would forgo criticizing Chinese people.  At any rate, being universal doesn't really make it less awful, does it?

Back to business, I think you have to be smart and canny and be ready to fight fire with fire. Otherwise from a pragmatic point of view, you will not succeed.

Once you reaches a certain degree of success, I think there is also a social responsibility you must fulfill.

@quasifrog BTW I'm the Product Manager (ie. Management, process streamlining etc) - I'm not a tech guy, but I wish I was, so thanks. :p

It has been ChinesePod's ethos to bring you not only the language, but also the cultural and social dimensions of China. So I am very glad that you like this show.

I've met some really interesting expats since doing the interview. What struck me most is their resilience and the ability of taking things with a sense of humor in China.

Hi xiaophil

I was just thinking about the guy who married the prostitute. I assume the work mates of the guy called her a prostitute, I wonder how accurate their own knowledge of the girls professional life was. They may even be overjudgemental of her.

From what I have seen it seems alot of young women in china have engaged in prostitution at some point in their lives, I am not talking about the girls in the ktv or hairdressers, I am talking about the girls who have a sugardaddy. or any mistress. I have met or observed quite a few seemingly well educated and charming women who sleep with mature wealthy chinese man for presents and the odd financial help, even though they dont consider themselves pros, they are selling their bodies for wealth, thats a prostitute as far as I am concerned. Although some may feel some emotional contact the prime motive is money.

Later after one or two abortions they will probably settle down with a stable guy and continue to look down their nose at other people.

There I go focusing on the negatives, the lesson is taking a while to sink in maybe.

 Please disregard my negative comments.

I agree with John that success comes to those that are hungry to learn and open to it. He also mentioned something that I have found to be very true- understanding the Chinese culture is not enough, the hard part is convincing your bosses back home what their expectations should be.

Phil

You are judging with very little factual information. Why care what other people do? I know plenty of ex-pats (and Chinese) that are quite "moral." This is a complex issue. All you can do is live your life the way you see fit. Comments such as yours only serve to spread bad perceptions about Ex-pats, and Chinese. In my experience, this behavior is not predominant.

yingshilangbu

Like I said, there is more to the picture.  I'm not willing to give them the benifit of the doubt.  But yes, your points are reasonable.

RJ

I'll have to mull over what you said.  But my initial reaction is, yes, it can spread misconceptions, but I also think that not discussing something also in a way condones it in many people's minds.  Furthermore, in this case, it relates to the question, "Where do we draw the line?" which I think is a very  worthwhile question.  And as to "why worry about why care what other people do?"  These guys being on top set the tone and standard for my wife's company, and believe me, the effect has been negative. 

I'm glad to hear that you feel it isn't predominant, though.  I really don't know many foreigners that work that high up.  I always respect your straight shooting style, so I'll think about it.

Ok, seems I shouldn't have propagated a particular thread within this discussion that is actually unrelated to the topic, so again - LETS FOCUS ON BUSINESS.

I think that being able to speak Chinese, or at least making a sincere effort to speak SOME Chinese goes a long way toward building great relationships with government and business people alike. By this I mean, it gets your foot in the door, the rest is up to your abilities and finances of course.

@xiaophil and yingshilangbu,

Re moral corruption, it's a severe problem widely ackowledged in China. There are many reasons (caused by the lack of an effective or just legal system or a religious belief to act as checks and balances on people's behavior) why many people draw no limit to what they will do in order to achieve their goals. The kind of 'wild West' behavior is quite prevalent. But of course, not everyone is like that. Your point of foreigners gone 'astray', my take is that China is a place with a lot of temptation. It's probably a lot easier to render because your roots are not here, you don't need to worry about what people in your community think and say. But I also think at the end of the day, temptation has no bias. Chinese and foreigners are the same in the face of temptation. But there is definitely a lot more of it here.

Phil

Of course you have to draw the line at not doing unethical business deals. I work for a rather large company, and one that insists on no unethical business, so maybe its easier for us. My sample size is not all inclusive, the same as yours is not.

As for Chinese, Im not sure how much speaking Chinese helps in actually doing business. Speaking a little Chinese can help you socially, which is important to business, but I would think to really benefit from Chinese in the business world, you would have to be quite fluent.

RJ,
personally, it sometimes helped me to get the gist of what is being said, especially when the rest of the table 以为ed that I was still in the 你好 stage (however, those were no hard-core business meetings).

Jenny congratulations with you new show, I loved it!

In reaction to the interview, I do not think China is “hostile” at all. The longer I’m here and more I learn the more (universal) similarities there are I think.
If you ask me what it takes I would say: first Language! You need the language to understand the culture, without that you miss subtleties and cannot integrate (and do business) well.
Next, kindness, if you follow the Golden Rule you cannot go wrong anywhere even in China. I never met anyone who was offended by a smile. Also, I do not think you should adopt the local conditions too much, just be yourself and follow you inner compass. You will never be “one of them” anyway, so why not be yourself, that makes things much easier.
Third and last, humor, that will help you (and the other person/s) and put things in perspective and overcome issues.

I won’t get into details or start a discussion, but corruption is everywhere and you cannot avoid it always and sometimes it is even necessary or useful. I see China as a system and that system works rather well as a whole.

Just follow the one eyed Buddha, sometimes you look, sometimes you don’t. It’s not that difficult! There is no absolute truth anyway ;-).

Now learning Chinese for business situations.  That reminds me of something.  I had a Chinese student who works for a foreign company.  One of the foreigners was always around.  The Chinese staff would complain about the company around him in Chinese thinking that he couldn't speak or understand Mandarin well.  Oops.  He could speak Mandarin very well, and he was taking notes.  Let's just say, he didn't have many friends with the Chinese staff after they found out about his abilities.  I can't decide if what he was doing was right or not. 

Jenny

Thanks for your insight.  It is nice to get a native's perspective.  Sorry to draw so much attention to one small aspect of your new show.  I guess the problem with me is that I am not in China to do business or run businesses, so the other parts I don't have much to say about.

great show!

Jenny thanks again for taking the time, it was great visiting you guys + gals ^_^

The benefit for a foreigner of speaking Chinese is that it shows you have made an effort.  

If the native Chinese speakers have reason to believe that your effort is serious, then their respect for you rises noticably and is obvious.  Doors open that would otherwise be closed.

This is the social benefit, but it certainly impacts any business relationships as well, since those are largely social as well.

All this is aside from the great personal benefit of learning an interesting and fun language.  Maybe some day I'll be good enough to read  红楼梦 in the original..  ;)

Great site, good comments.  Agree with Jenny on the temptations - always up to you which ones are harmless fun and which are dangerous to your heart.

@Jenny,

A very big 恭喜恭喜 to you on your new show!  Is great to hear this, after spending the last two years just reading about doing business in China and China's economics/politics to get my masters, yet now to really see how things work in China first-hand, as I prepare to move back to Shanghai.  China sure is changing, and enjoy being part of that.

Rich

Great show, Jenny, and a worthy successor to my former favourite 'Dear Amber'.

Jenny is sampled on a song by Curious Onlookers from Los Angeles called "Do You Like to Eat Tofu?".  Here is the link:

http://www.myspace.com/iksomray

Excellent show, Jenny!  Looking forward to more interesting stuff.

It's really awesome to see comments from Poddies who havn't commented for a while. Excuter, Rich, Yase, thank you for your encouragement and hope to see you around more!

@yarmoski,

Thanks for the link! Cool song.

@jennyzhu @yarmoski LOL I've been singing that to my self all day, "你喜欢吃豆腐吗？喜欢，喜欢!" "Nǐ xǐhuān chī dòufu ma? Xǐhuān, xǐhuān!"

哈哈! I like that song. Maybe they can compose more CPod-songs? What about 它不是活在白垩纪吗？

Or maybe one song per vocab entry - think about the mnemonic potential!

;)

Jenny - Wonderful show!  You're definitely my favorite <g>.  I watched your interview with the Malaysian news several times.

Knowing even limited Chinese has multiple impacts on business.  Most importantly, it shows deep respect, particularly when they learn you are self-taught.  It creates instant chemistry.  I'm still astonished how speaking some Chinese creates an instant rapport.    

With outside business partners, if you begin in Chinese, they won't know exactly how much you understand and it will reduce their ability to engage in sidebar discussions in your presence. 

A non-Chinese example:  An Indian colleague had to do an audit in a Tamil-speaking area of India.  Beforehand, he learned some Tamil to begin the discussion.  Then he switched to English.  They had no idea how much Tamil he knew.  He wanted to prevent them from saying to each other "Hide this.  Don't tell him that..."  He didn't need to show fluency, but just enough to create doubt in their minds.  

Hi, Jenny,Matt and other CPoders:  I just got back from spending a few weeks in Costa Rica.  I took 2 years of Spanish in high school so understand some of the language,  and was ready to switch to SpanishPod after that vacation.  But then I listened to this great Jenny show and so will stick with Chinese for now. Looking forward to more installments in the series!  --Mystic

@Mystic I'm so glad to hear that, this show is pretty awesome. :) Both Spanish and Chinese are important languages, but since you've got a foundation in Spanish, focusing on Chinese is a good decision. Once you get more comfortable with Chinese you can always brush up with SpanishPod. 

@dawei1,

Thank you! Very interesting observation of using Chinese in businesss and non-biz context. But I definitely think your point of building an instant rapport is true in both situations. 

@mystic,

I am very flattered. You won't regret your decision^_^

Hi Jenny

I know i havent been around lately but i after listening to this i felt like i needed to give praise where it is deserved...Just wanted to say 谢谢 for a new show on Chinese culture. Its awesome and really helps to inspire me to keep on learning this great language. Also, I plan on doing business over there someday so it helps to know what to expect!

You are simply charming and I'm looking forward to more Jenny Zhu show! keep up the good work.

Hi Jenny,

Thanks for this very informative show !

I have a friend who just went to Shanghai to teach English. Unfortunately, the Chinese government will not grant him a visa since he is older than 55.

Is there any way around this age restriction ?

Thanks !

pchenery

That is stupid.  I just thought I would mention a lot of people work here on travel visas.  Every few months they go to Hong Kong to renew.  Just thought I would mention it as an option...

It would be nice to have interviews with people from academia, politics etc. that live in China to make things happen. Their goals probably aren't so much in the money but equally or even more rewarding.

@Joachim - being hopelessly unbusinesslike by nature, I'd be up for this, too. There's probably a wider range of stories out there to be told. But I look forward to seeing how the show takes shape, Jenny.

@pchenery

That is not only stupid (as Xiaophil says) but i think that it is also incorrect.  The critical age is 60 I am told, and thereafter you can get a work visa but only as a 'foreign expert'. 

I am over 55 and working in China with a valid Z visa.  Of course a sample of one does not prove anything, but I have met many foreigners older than me on valid work visas.  :-)

The launch of this show is great news and I look forward to listening regularly. It has very good potential.

Another potential advantage for using even limited Chinese in a business discussion is giving face. If you start in English and the other side has to switch into Chinese at some point, they may feel that they've lost face by exposing their weaker language skills. But if you start in Chinese and then switch to English, they have gained face by accomodating the foreigners.

@urbandweller,

Very nice to have you back in the community. Thank you for your encouragement. China is a very dynamic and highly stimulating place to be right now. I am very glad to have the opportunity to showcase it in my small ways.

@pchenery,

I have very little idea about visa regulations in China. But I've seen the very resourceful community has helped you out. It's something I should cover in the show.

@Joachim,

You will indeed hear from people from other fields. I have interviewed singer, architect, founder of non-profit organizations, etc. But what I've learned is that there is an entrepreneurial aspect to those too.       

Hi Jenny,

Your approach is great.

After ten years of frequent travelling to China I learned that you need to understand people and establish suitable way of communication first. It is not about the language, only. It is about basic comprehension.

So on one hand you must learn or at least have some idea what makes your partners tick. That is a cultural matter. E.G.: Most German customers refrain from having a business lunch or dinner, in China you never can do business without. To understand that is the first step to mutual consent.

To learn at least some basic Chinese language is very helpful on the other hand. It teaches you that people think different because their language is different. All Roman languages lead to the same logic. We tend to think our language is very civilized because it is defining everything, even the tiniest matter by tenses, conjunction and declension. But Chinese are more efficient through their language. In many cases one word is enough. That is a very nice fact about Chinese language and makes the access to people more easy than most westerners think.

Following this I must say: Chinese pod is a helpful source to find a better comprehension of China by learning the language and the cultural background.

Ha, i had a few pints with John Chan last night.  He is the man...

Thanks Jenny.

@ bodawei and xiaophil...i checked this story out further...seems that my friend failed the aptitude test for teaching that the school gave him, then denied him employment and therefore he made up a the visa story, probably just to save face...

anyway, he's off to try his luck teaching in Thailand...