"ba" -- Qing Wen (吧 and 把)

I think CPod staff posts might be sparse this week due to the National Holiday when everyone has the week off.

There has been a discussion on 把 recently on last week's "Getting Reimbursed" lesson. There's a lot to wade through, but you can give it a shot. http://chinesepod.com/learnchinese/getting-reimbursed/discussion To summarize what I added: The 把 construction is 把 + object + method of disposing of the object For example: 把 那本书 给我. (Give me that book.) 把 你的鞋 拿过来. (Bring your shoes over here.) 把 这些钱 拿回去. (Take this money back.) Concerning 吧: 吧 is generally used as a particle placed at the end of sentences in oral Mandarin to make the tone of the sentence more relaxed. For example, 咱们开始. (zan2men kai1shi3) 咱们开始吧. (zan2men kai1shi3 ba5) The meaning of both sentences is the same: "Let's begin / start." However, the second sentence using 吧 has a more relaxed tone because of the use of 吧. Another example: say you're being harassed by a beggar and you want to tell them to leave... 走! is better than 走吧! because the 吧 adds a tinge of informality and/or familiarity. Hope this clears things up for you.

Also, it should be noted that they are pronounced completely differently and are completely unrelated. One is third tone, the other is "neutra" tone.

I agree, a Qing Wen on ba would be great. Kyle, I appreciate your filling in over Golden Week. Good job!

thanks for the post, Kyle! I guess learning on when to use "ba" at the end of the sentence just takes time and experience to get to use it better. When you want the bill at the end of a meal, do you normally say to the waiter, "Mai dan" or "Mai dan ba" ???

Kyle's explanation of 吧 is good, but not quite right. 咱们开始 means "we start." There is no "let's" implied. It states a fact, almost. You sorta need the "ba" to say "let's start." "Ba" is a suggestive particle, I would say, and I think the "ba" can be translated in most situations as "how about..." So, 走吧 means "how about you leave" and 咱们开始吧 means "how about we start." To answer rehkcts, you wouldn't use "ba" to ask for the maidan, because you aren't suggesting it, you are asking for it directly. To be polite, and to use the OTHER ba, you could say "qing3 ba3 mai3dan1 dai4 guo4 lai2" or "ma2fan2 ni3 ba3 mai3dan1 dai4 guo4 lai2" Of course, any of these will show you are a foreigner...you should just shout "mai3dan1!!!" (in cantonese, people are sometimes more polite and say "mm goi maidan" (bill, thanks) ) Hope this helps (until there is a proper lesson on this!)

You would say 'mai dan ba' to your friends, at the end of the meal. It means "well, let's get the bill then, shall we?" or thereabouts.

Thank you Pulosm and Maxiewawa! I appreciate the help. :)

Hey rehkcts, Throughout many of the lessons John has given a great device (which he calls a crutch) to get used to the usage of 把. Remember that old song, "Take this job and shove it"? I always thought of this song as I was getting used to the usage of 把。 My old Mandarin teacher always said the 把 is the particle to shift the Object before the Verb. This is a bit of a vague way of explaining it that I don't think makes it quite clear in the mind of us 老外， so if you want to quickly get used to how to use 把 in your mind substitute 把 for the word, "take" in the context of, "Take this job and shove it". (or let's say "take this bill and give it to the customer at table 12", or "take your homework and put it on the teachers desk" etc., etc.) So in the case of, "Take this job and shove it", it wouldn't sound right if you said, "Shove this job". It's the same thing in Mandarin.