Qing Wen - About Face! A Multi-faceted Look at 面子

Hi all,

Courtesy of Connie, here are today's phrases.

面子miànzi

你可以说：“爱面子”。或者“要面子”。

Nǐ kěyǐ shuō: “ài miànzi”. Huòzhě “yào miànzi”.

请朋友吃饭的时候，点很多很多菜，这就是很爱面子。

Qǐng péngyou chīfàn de shíhou, diǎn hěn duō hěn duō cài, zhè jiù shì hěn ài miànzi.

经常有人买东西要买最贵的。

Jīngcháng yǒu rén mǎi dōngxi yào mǎi zuì guì de.

《大腕》，不要最好就要最贵。

《Dàwàn》.  Bù yào zuì hǎo jiù yào zuì guì.

买假名牌，但是跟别人说这是真的。

Mǎi jiǎ míngpái, dànshì gēn biéren shuō zhè shì zhēn de.

还有一种是很爱面子的。比如说，你碰到一个不懂的东西，但是你说我懂，我懂，我知道。

就是不懂装懂。

Hái yǒu yī zhǒng shì hěn ài miànzi de. Bǐrú shuō, nǐ pèngdào yī ge bù dǒng de dōngxi, dànshì nǐ shuō wǒ dǒng, wǒ dǒng, wǒ zhīdao. Jiùshì bùdǒngzhuāngdǒng.

没面子méi miànzi

我们都很怕没面子。

Wǒmen dōu hěn pà méi miànzi.

比如说我开的车没有别人的好，我会觉得没面子。

Bǐrú shuō wǒ kāi de chē méiyǒu biéren de hǎo，wǒ huì juéde méi miànzi.

我小时候如果考试考得不好，我会觉得很没面子。

Wǒ xiǎoshíhou rúguǒ kǎoshì kǎo de bù hǎo，wǒ huì juéde hěn méi miànzi.

用很旧的手机。

Yòng hěn jiù de shǒujī.

有面子yǒu miànzi

如果我总是买新手机，我会觉得很有面子。

Rúguǒ wǒ zǒngshì mǎi xīnshǒu jī, wǒ huì juéde hěn yǒu miànzi.

给我个面子gěi wǒ ge miànzi

有的时候，我想请我的朋友去唱歌。但是她说我不想唱，不会唱。然后我就会说给我个面子吧，一起去。

Yǒude shíhou, wǒ xiǎng qǐng wǒ de péngyou qù chànggē. Dànshì tā shuō wǒ bù xiǎng chàng, bù huì chàng. Ránhòu wǒ jiù huì shuō gěi wǒ ge miànzi ba, yīqǐ qù.

This clip shows how the newly rich dream of showing off their money.

楼里站一英国管家，戴一假发，特绅士的那种。业主一进门甭管有事 没事都得跟人家说：May I help you thir？"一口地道的英国伦敦腔，倍有面子！

In the US we have face as well. We call it respect. We may not talk about it as much but it is certainly there. A quick way to loose respect (face) however is to be percieved as showing off your wealth, or pretending to be wealthier than you really are. Is being thought of as 爱面子 or 要面子 actually a loss of face?

When an in-law purchased a car he couldn't afford, my wife disapprovingly said, "死要面子/Sìyàomìanzi" or, "he's willing to die for face."  I don't know how accurate that translation is, but it was definitely a negative comment.

RJberki, I couldn't agree more.  I think face is in every culture, just different manifestations.

@rjberki @tvan I couldn't agree more. In fact I think you'll find a lot of luxury items for sale in China at prices much higher than they are else where in the world for the simple fact that those who can afford such items are happy to pay. Face.

Excellent QW!  Nice balance of grammar, vocabulary, and culture...for all levels I think.  And a 10 minute QW is just about right.

给你们个面子 :)

Is being thought of as 爱面子 or 要面子 actually a loss of face?

Reply rjberki:Yes .It is actually as you said.

And there is a dramatic adage  in our country : 打肿脸充胖子
I try to explain this  adage
打肿脸充胖子：There is  a people who is thin
and he want to be fat,so he beat himself to look fat.

My English is poor .I do my best to expression . Thanks

Face is something I do not like about Chinese culture.

My background and culture results in me regarding this behaviour as superficial, showing lack of maturity, and often vulgar.

Showing off your wealth is associated with nouveau riche who have 'no culture'.  It shows lack of self esteem by those who do it, and therefore has the reverse effect to that intended.

What is more, the incessant purchasing of new items is unnecessarily harmful to the planet.

Forcing people to drink to give you face shows a selfish attitude with lack of respect for them.

a384370452

you expressed it very well. you may have also said that being fat in china in the past was, and may still be to some extent,  linked with wealth and status.

I got a lot out of this Qing Wen.  Very insightful.  Loved the northern accent in the movie clip, too.  But I still struggle with understanding the northerners when the accent is that thick. 

I think a good English counterpart to a384370452's adage (打肿脸充胖子) is, "to put on airs".

打肿脸充胖子 =

不肿（懂）装肿（懂）

Thanks team for so very clearly rebranding (and rebuilding) QW. Dropping the jingles gives some more talk time perhaps, but its the care you've taken to add useful/interesting content that really shows through. We learn by doing!

Oh and it's really nice to have the language used written up and posted out front. Thanks Connie!

I don't want to rag on Chinese culture, but for the sake of letting people know my experience, I have to say this aspect of Chinese culture once in awhile causes me grief.  My girlfriend is Chinese, and she is often worried about what other people think, which means she sometimes asks me to do something that I see as impractical and pointless just for the sake of "face."  I have to remind myself that being in a relationship with someone from a different culture almost always results in differences that will boggle the minds of both sides.  But no matter how sensitive I am, it sure is annoying at times.

Oh well, it's all part of the excitement.

Qing Wen is back on track. Bravo!

Very interesting and informative lesson. Some background music would be nice though.

Pete, I agree with you a hundred percent. 白酒is the most disgusting liquid concoction that I've ever slirped.

I think that 面子has been a part of Chinese culture for a long time, but that it may be spiraling off to become a sociological problem for the Chinese middle and upper classes.  

Same great people, better QW. I have to agree with Reigau on all points. Im sure we have no idea how much goes into one of these, but know this, your efforts are appreciated.

Execllent lesson and grammatical explanation.  But I found the consipicuous consumption aspect of this lesson kind of gross.  Yuck.  I'm I the only one that thinks it might be problematic when a country of 1.3 billion people decides that deilberate waste is the best way to impress people?

Incidentally, at around 7:15, Pete says something like bènr 有面子！ What did he say?

I agree with mikeinewshot,and others.I believe respect should be a two way thing.I know Chinese culture would dictate that there are times you should drink for example,but I think at the same time it should be respected when people don't want to drink.I hope some of these attitudes change.For example wasting food is also not good for the planet.Also overeating of course leads to all sorts of health problems.It leads back to a question I've had about how much other cultures are tolerated in China,and also freedom of individual choice.Why is it so important that one drinks alcohol for example?

On a lighter note though,I do like the example of:

"有的时候，我想请我的朋友去唱歌。但是她说我不想唱，不会唱。然后我就会说给我个面子吧，一起去" ...when someone just needs a bit of gentle encouragement to come out of their shell for a bit of fun.

Great QW.

Interesting conversation.  Regarding drinking, I've found that fewer people drink in Taiwan (compared to the U.S.).  These have all been non-business related situations, but it's a refreshing change from the U.S.   Almost all social activities in the states revolve around drinking.  Gets old after the millionth time.

Hi mormon88

I said 倍儿有面子-- bèir yǒumiànzi, which means 很有面子！ This is Tianjin slang that has become popular around China. The guy says it in the film clip I posted.

倍 means "times"--- 五倍 is "five times," as in "five times more expensive."

a384370452

Thank you for your response.

Mike - I tend to agree with you but remember face has to do with a lot more than just money. Face can be a good thing too, when it deals with things like honesty, fairness, integrity, fidelity, fillial piety, loyalty, responsibility, work ethic, and dare I say chastity. Its basically involves your reputation and all parts of it. My father never had money to flash but he sure did worry about what the neighbors thought. I think face is everywhere. As for drinking in China, most of the drinking face related comments are pretty much "tongue in cheek" these days. You can handle it one of two ways, be clever, or drink it. Both are respected.

I'm a big fan of Qing Wen, but I wondered if I could 麻烦你们 to make good your promise to build up a comprehensive guide to that slippery fish 了。You did a couple of lessons on it a while back and there were promises of more. I'm sure with your help I could finally crack it.

calkins,

are you saying getting old is hard on your drinking, or drinking is hard on your getting old?

Ha, a little of both!  I'd love to hear some of those clever things to say to avoid the 白酒。

A similar phrase 丢脸 (diu1 lian3) also means "lose face/丢面子". Maybe 丢脸 sometimes sounds more reproachful/critical than 丢面子 in a given context. 他不要脸 means "he is shameless', and 我没脸见你 "I can't face you/I'm too embarrassed to see you."

By the way, there is an interesting word "面子工程" (face-saving project), and this indicates, for example, an extravagantly luxurious city hall or something like that. Of course, 面子工程 is a very good opportunity for corrupt bureaucrats to make big money.

Thanks everyone for your positive encouragement, we aim to provide the best service we can. Connie, Jenny, Pete have done a great job!

On the topic of face, just remember that we are judging these behaviours from our own culturally biased perspectives. And whilst I am also a subjective participant in this viewpoint by default, I must still urge everyone to try to look at these concepts from an objective point of view too. Despite some manifestations of such cultural concepts seeming wrong to us, we should attempt to assess such manifestations by the cultural standards from which the concepts themselves originated.

Interesting QW!

Certainly glad that in Western culture there is no or little of the cultural pressure to live accordingly in order to 'save face'. Rich people here buy expensive things not because they want to save face, but mainly because they can afford to own or enjoy the finest things in life.

And some of the very rich people in America don't even care for material things. A perfect example is Warren Buffet - second wealthiest person in the world who is only passionate about his work and has never cared for houses, cars, or any of the bling blings to show off that he is rich. 

The one person who probably personifies a person who is most care less of saving/having face would be Simon Cowell - wearing T-shirts and blue jeans and speaking his mind right from day one of American Idol

By the way, what are the ways of describing a person who is care less of saving/having face? 很不可怕没面子？         

paulinurus,

I wouldnt say there is no pressure in the west to maintain face. We used to call it '"keeping up with the joneses" (meaning your neighbors or peers).You are right about warren:

"The world's second richest man lives in the same five-bedroom, gray stucco house he bought in 1958 for $31,500."

This is not the norm however.

My father in law from my first marriage was a very wealthy and powerful man (yea I know). Anyway he always played down his status including how he dressed. I remember going with him to an apartment building he was building and the workers there, having never seen him before, refused to believe he was who he said he was, and did not want to follow his orders. They expected to see a rich man in a suit. A  mistake that cost them dearly. I of course enjoyed the show immensely.

No offense to the Chinese, but when I try to teach the concept of face by using terms, such as giving face and receiving face, my students think I'm talking about something nasty. I often replace face with the word respect instead. Just an FYI to anyone dealing with young people, the whole face thing sounds very very bad to them. It takes 15 minutes to gain back control of the class. Same thing happens when I try to teach the word for mouth in Japanese-kuchi. After 20 minutes of laughter, I give up.

I can't really reconcile the Chinese modesty with flaunting riches.  Are these both manifested by the same people, or are some Chinese modest while others are the reverse?

@mikeinewshot I think that you will find that some people are more modest and some less so in any culture. That being said, there are also many ways to gain, retain, save and/or project one's 'face'.

matt_c,

我同意你的意见. Tolerance of cultural differences is extremely important. We need to shed our cultural skins and look at the human aspect of things.

In my 68 years I've visited most countries in this world of ours, and the one thing that strikes is how similar we all are. I'm happy to say that I've good friends in almost every country I've visited, and when I sit down to dinner with them, and discuss their day-to-day lives, their concerns, these things are universal.

The notion of 面子 is not uniquely Chinese as has been pointed out. And it is a manifestation of so much of what makes us beautifully human that it makes me 笑.

Bless the fellow who buys me a delicious Chinese dinner for whatever reason. My only response would be, 很好吃, 多谢. And if he feels proud, happier, more comfortable, then wonderful ! I'm happy to see that.

Bill

Bill,
although I am far from having seen even a portion of that, I tend to agree. Sometimes it is extremly helpful to get sober and discover all those things that are universal rather than to just focus on differences. The latter easily leads to annoyance and arrogance. I found that I myself am not yet fully immune to this...

I also find it interesting how often you meet the same characters across all countries.

Culture is mostly about packaging. However, if you don't know how to handle that packaging properly, sometimes you can cut yourself severely. "Face" definately can become an issue. When my mother in law visited us in 2005 for 3 months, I once ran into serious problems for an irritated comment which I would have never suspected to have any "face-relation".

Hi henning,

I once ran into serious problems for an irritated comment which I would have never suspected to have any "face-relation".

I can also relate to this, and have even been in situations like that here in the US. I can recall several that occured when we lived in a black ghetto in Seattle when I was in graduate school at the University of Washington. I thought, "Yikes! Oh no. Trouble." Nothing really happened. I was just frightened because of my own "white guy" assumptions. It's so easy to trip on little cultural differences. Still, all was quickly forgiven with a laugh and usually followed by a neighborhood BBQ. I was in the end known as the "grey guy (-:" in the neighborhood.

Live and learn,

Bill

I can sense Pete's subtle disgust at this concept of mianzi. And I can relate to that.

But I don't think all Chinese people are that shallow. I'd like to think of mianzi as somewhat a form of courtesy and etiquette (that arises from elements specific to this culture). Like anything in excess, mianzi becomes a sore sticking point when it inflates the ego of the person asking it.

And I can tell more certainly that mianzi is not solely confined in Chinese culture. It can exist in ANY culture, in any person who likes to be flattered and fawned upon (people who have BIG egos). 

To say that mianzi does not exist in North American culture (Anglo-white society) is certainly a big false.

I hope that Chinese 面子, including 面子工程, would greatly contribute to expanding domestic demand, and consequently stimulate world economy.

Of course there are plenty of Americans who value face.  Then again, there is no short supply of people who have the "I am not concerned with that" attitude (and I am sure plenty of people from other countries are the same).  What I would like to know from a Chinese, is there a significant portion of Chinese society that shuns and looks down on paying attention to face?  I am also curious to know if Chinese people think 爱面子 has some value, as in people are better off with this outlook than without it?

Hi mikeinewshot and others who have expressed disgust at vulgar displays of wealth

I believe that a lot of the Western revulsion at conspicuous consumption is due to the relatively orderly transfer of wealth that has allowed the formation of "old money."

Due to the earth-shaking political upheavals of the last century, China really does not have the idea of old, established families who keep a low profile. Almost without exception, anyone in China who has money got it in the last thirty years. That is to say, almost anyone who is rich, used to be poor. Just as converts are the loudest evangelists, the newly rich are the most likely to flaunt their wealth.

So while there is definitely an aristocratic class here, it is not an old class. If the society stays stable long enough for fortunes to be inherited, we should see the wealthy begin to tone down their flashiness. This will generate a new kind of snobbery and social inequality, but may spare us from the spectacle of gilded toilets.

All this being said, the Western reverence for classy, low-key rich people is seen more in the breach than in the observance (check out John Thain's wastebasket.)

Chinese "vulgar prosperity" is not necessarily a bad thing. It's virtually an only way to redistribute the wealth in the PRC today, where the tax system doesn't work well especially in the fields of income tax and inheritance tax. The humble/frugal rich is much worse than the arrogant/spendthrift rich from the standpoint of wealth redistribution.

Hi changye

Thanks for an interesting and optimistic interpretation of "vulgar prosperity."

But it would be nice to see some of this wealth getting redistributed to peasants and workers, instead of ending up in the hands of Rolex, BMW, and Gucci (or the people who make knock-offs of these.)

It's not so much the money as the people who have or do not have the money. Humility, frugality, arrogance and spenders are qualities one find in across the financial spectrum. They are part and partial of human nature. Wealth and poverty are magnifying glasses that permit us to see exagerated views of these qualities.

Hey, this is the stuff out of which great plays and films are created ...

But remember, when it rains even the stone statues of buddha cry.

Bill

Such an interesting culture discussion - I liked Changye's view that 'vulgar prosperity' is a good thing. Many commentators & political leaders are hoping that such spending will help us out of this recession - in Australia the taxpayer has funded 'cash bonuses' but people have so far saved rather than spent.  (So it's not really working.) 

I think that face offers a good explanation for almost every aspect of Chinese behaviour (ie. national culture), it's not just about spending.  Face features in every culture but in China it is much more important. Sorry, we are not all the same; wouldn't it be boring if we were?

@Changye

 'Vulgar prosperity' sounds a bit like Reganomics trickling effect - allow the rich to be very rich so that their riches can trickle down to the poor when they spend.

@RJ,

I agree that there is some pressure in the West to keep up with the joneses, however the pressure is due to issues of personalities rather than due to national culture. People who buy things they cannot afford so as to keep up their appearances with the neighbors may perhaps need help from the likes of Dr. Phil? On the other hand, if people in China has to keep face even though they cannot afford to do so, then that's sad. Maybe (I'm just guessing) that's how the "哪里" culture emerged - as a counter balance to the 'keep face' gesture so that you can protect someone from overspending and offering you things you know they cannot afford to do so. As for the story of your ex-father-in-law, yes the very wealthy can afford to dress poorly since they are able to teach a lesson to the people who draw erroneous impressions on appearance alone.   

Paulinurus, I actually think that over-spending (or buying what you can't afford) is much worse in the U.S. than in China.

One big difference is that Americans use credit far more often than Chinese do.  Chinese tend to pay for most things using cash.  Credit is fake money, money that you don't have, lent out to you by banks at ridiculous interest rates. 

The problem is that we see that guy in his ridiculously massive Hummer (gas guzzler), driving down the streets of Chicago (the flattest city in the world!) and we think "Wow, that guy must be rich."  But what we don't know is that he's up to his neck in debt.

Take a look at the current world economic crisis.  It can all be linked back to greed in America...people (banks) spending money that they don't have, and lending to people who can't afford to pay it back.

It may not be called 面子 in the U.S., but I believe it is due to national culture.  It's in our advertising, it's in our movies and entertainment, our pop culture, etc....everywhere in the States there are messages telling us that "rich is better, buy buy buy, even if you can't afford it, you can pay for it next year when you have a better job, blah blah blah."

And at the end of the day, which country (China or the U.S.) owes the other country billions and billions of dollars?!

Just my 2 cents worth :)

Hi QW hosts -- I really liked this episode. 

The discussion about displays of face was very helpful.  That explains why some of the people I have seen seem to have new expensive hand phones. 

I would like to hear more the cultural aspects (especially) 面子。 I do have a question, does it seem that it is acceptable to make sport of foreigners in a way to cause then to lose face?

@ Calkins -- I appreciate your comments about our conspicuous consuption in the States.  I for one appreciate the Chinese sense of thrift and savings--which is why it is all the more surprizing to see people with $500 cell phones. 

i agree with bodawei.  to me this notion of 面子 is very Chinese, and i'm from the far eastern land of businesspeople and politicians who once upon a time used to exasperate westerners by always giving "saving someone's face" as the reason for decisions they couldn't comprehend.  at the time face was ridiculed as this "Japanese thing" that only served to obstruct good decision-making.  so, it is nice to see that two decades on westerners are so much more willing to try to empathize with the different kinds of thinking they will encounter in Asia (said w/just a touch of irony ...).

we've imported the word 面子 (メンツ pr. like menzi) into our language.  but almost as soon as i began studying Chinese and started knowing more about the society and culture, i could see that this Chinese 面子 is much more serious than メンツ (we do have other words for the more socially serious aspects of "face", but even then, the Chinese 面子 is different, much graver).  because "face" does not adequately stand for 面子 which is not the same thing as respect (though there is overlap of course), it deserves a lesson on its own.  even though one QW is too brief to describe all the manifestations of or thinking behind it.

acknowledging that something exists in another society that doesn't in your own isn't antagonistic in itself, even if in many ways you find the other impossibly mysterious and hard to understand at first.  the example of flaunting wealth and "superfluous" spending is only one aspect of 面子. anyway, the novelty of acquisition and material wealth will wear out in due course--as in any country (maybe not for all people).

in this case i do think we should acknowledge the difference, and acknowledge that not all people in the world think like westerners.  otherwise we keep ourselves from understanding better this very interesting thing called 面子.

in the post above

acknowledging that something exists in another society that doesn't in your own isn't antagonistic in itself

i meant judgmental, or intolerant, or critical--couldn't think of the words!

QING WEN is back!!

well done team, i really enjoyed it.

Great QW and great comments!

Thank you team, and thank you CPod Community!

totally agree with calkins

in terms of consumerism i think the US takes the cake. much of "conspicuous consumption" has to do with creating new needs in the mind of the consumer and creating false demand in turn. and a lot of that is what made the US an economic powerhouse for so long.

but the cultural concept of mianzi certainly extends beyond flaunting riches, which a few people have brought up. my mom came from a relatively wealthy, well-traveled family, who lost a lot of what they had when they fled to taiwan. this concept of buying things just to show-off was pretty disdainful to her, but other aspects of mianzi -- like behaving well and doing good by your family -- were pretty much indispensable when i was growing up.

and to matt_c, while we definitely have to respect other cultural notions as they arise in their contexts, i do think we can get lost in cultural relativism. there are certain aspects of rampant consumerism that i simply disagree with, and i think if the world is to be a more flourishing place, a lot of us -- all over the world -- need to rethink cultural values that have placed greed and excess over human and environmental good.

xemrac,

"while we definitely have to respect other cultural notions as they arise in their contexts, i do think we can get lost in cultural relativism"

I couldn't agree more.After all,what is culture? I think the best definition I can find is:

"the sum total of ways of living built up by a group of human beings and transmitted from one generation to another."

If I don't understand a culture or an aspect of a culture then I do try to look into it and understand it objectively,putting myself in others shoes so to speak.Of course one is going to be influenced by the culture that one has been brought up in but does this then completely invalidate one's opinion on aspects of another culture? I think not,and to suggest so is somewhat patronising in my opinion.I also believe in being tolerant and understanding of other cultures and for this very reason am probably in fact more tolerant of other cultures perceived shortcomings than aspects of my own culture I wouldn't subscribe to.So if we have inherited our cultures from our ancestors,are we saying that they never made any mistakes,and aspects should go without question? Certainly the fate of our planet depends upon us all having a rethink in many areas.I think culture is the wrapping as Henning has said,and our differences are to be celebrated[yes,otherwise life would be boring and it is one of the major reasons travel is so much fun;by and large other cultures enrich us],but underneath it all we are basically all human and share the same feelings and emotions,joys and pains.I think when it comes to face,one has to be specific as to what one is referring to as the above discussion makes it pretty obvious that there are both good and bad aspects to what is referred to as 面子。

Hi zhenlijiang

I'm a bit surprised that you didn't mention Japanese "世間体 (se-ken-tei)", a kind of 面子, in your above comments. I don't know how to properly translate 世間体 into English. Maybe it's "appearance/reputation" or something like that.

世間体 is similar to 面子, but I think the former often puts more importance on "avoid being different from others" than 面子. Haha, it's very Japanese. In this sense, Japanese 世間体 might be a little less costly than Chinese 面子.

Hi xemrac

I think if the world is to be a more flourishing place, a lot of us -- all over the world -- need to rethink cultural values that have placed greed and excess over human and environmental good.

Hear, hear. As Bob Dylan asked about mankind, "who's gonna take away his license to kill?"

As educators, we at ChinesePod have a responsibility to expose our listeners to a variety of aspects of Chinese history and culture, including things they may find distasteful.

Frankly, because of our sensitive position behind the "Bamboo Curtain," we are not able to talk as meaningfully about a lot of huge problems, events and trends as I would personally like.

Very interesting Qing Wen. The difference between western "face" and Chinese 面子 is quite remarkable when all the elements of each are weighed side by side. Nevertheless, I don't think it is inherently a Chinese "cultural" thing; as some of the discussion here has already shown, 面子 clearly means different things to different people. If I ever get to visit 中国 myself, I imagine that the very concept of 面子 will vary in its gravity, its importance and the things which define it for each social circle I come in contact with. 谢谢你! :)

@ acey83 - culture in simple terms means the way most people behave - it's a kind of average. There are sub-cultures in China like anywhere else but it is striking how important face is to most people.  I think it is ok to call it a cultural difference (when comparing one national culture with another.)  This much can be said without making judgements about whether the behaviour is 'good' or 'bad'.  

The whole idea of face comes from living in close contact with people. I feel it is a good thing if not taking too far. 

In the US, people have an absolute lack of interest in what others think or 'face'. Therefore, sleeping around, driving as if the world belong to them and bragging about things they bought of no worth are a common practice along with throwing insults back and forth among friends. I think this is because they live in large cities and have little to no connection to their neighbors or community.

Neither is good or bad, just different.

Hi tsulu

Interesting points, although I think you've painted Americans with a bit of a broad brush ;-)

I believe you're very right about face being the result of living in close contact with others, and seldom if ever going more than 50 km from your hometown. The sociologist I mentioned in the discussion, 费孝通 Fèi Xiàotōng, wrote very keenly about this in his book 乡土中国.

爱面子的人往往不给别人面子。

我靠，有你们这么说的那么搞笑吗？我看到那些汉语真的好想笑出来。不过你们上面说的是针对谁？其实你们能懂什么！那就是热情。请问有谁会不爱面子呢？爱面子的人会不给别人面子吗？

what do you know, junying? who are you to say what we understand and what we don't? Some people are just so arrogant. 真狗屎。

我怎么就不知道了呢，你又是那根葱？

Let's keep the conversation polite.

我们这边的人都很讲文明，对不对？

而且，junying, 你看一下这个discussion 就知道了，不爱面子的人还蛮多呢。爱面子的人给不给别人面子是另一回事。

比如？不爱面子

是啊！但我后面的那个人很不文明！

hi changye

"世間体"--yes, appearances--could be one of the terms i meant when i said we have words other than メンツ to refer to these concerns in our society but these, like you say, just don't carry the kind of  consequences that mianzi does in Chinese society.  by failing to care enough to meet 世間体 norms you risk being ostracized in Japanese society yeah because in general we are deathly afraid of standing out (not me though) in the group. very Japanese.

but that's something you do to your own appearance or reputation; no third party can do harm to your 世間体.  whereas they can 顔に泥を塗るput mud on your face, another thing i was thinking that we have in Japan.  but that's still not as  socially serious as violating the code of mianzi in China is it?

and it seems to me that there are so many more opportunities for even well-meaning foreigners who aren't clued in, to get in trouble with this.  like trying to be helpful and (in a friendly way) calling attention to someone's error in front of a group.  or unwittingly putting someone in a situation where they are not familiar w/the protocol.  a Chinese teacher here warns that (and i realize this is changing fast, but very generally) if we take business guests from China to dinner we should avoid western restaurants, because our guests may be unaccustomed to and made uncomfortable by the silverware and the table etiquette.  and that would not constitute a nice welcome even if it's at the best French restaurant in Tokyo, say, and we think the food is wonderful.

but the above are not hard for non-Chinese to understand.  what makes mianzi such a mystery (a wonder, even!) to me is the extreme, dark manifestation of it.  i guess i have to refrain here from describing the instance that really forced me  to think hard about this, as it has to do with a foreign ministry spokesman's comment on something to do with Japan ... but  because of that, i say mianzi is not something that "exists in all cultures".  that is not mianzi.

i think yào miànzi shows up more with folks who have acquired new money, rather the people who have grown up with it.

An interesting discussion - and a great Qing Wen. As an aside, the trick with mobile phones is to hold on to them for so long that they pass through the swamps of uncool (and the terrible, debilitating loss of face that results) to eventually come out the other side with an impressive aura of retro-chic. ;-)

Thanks for another great Qing Wen.  I hadn't realized that Mianzi was such a concept based on superficiality.  I always find these lessons really informative.

In Chinese, the meaning of 面子 has notihng to do with one part of you body---face.Do you understand?

                                      From Nanjing China.

Hi thinkbuddha

I like the way you think! Although to be honest, I just keep my battered old phone because I'm a contrary cuss. Marco from ItalianPod is the true master of retro-chic. He has the "CATS, the Musical" T-shirt to prove it.

Hi lvyauhua

I'm curious to know more about your comment on 面子. Would you please explain that specifically?

I have been re-reading Jane Austen's 'Pride and Predudice'. Written at the end of the 18th century I'm seeing similarities and differences with the Chinese concept of 'face'. Thank you for the language and the culture.

jes13,

I know what you mean.It's one of the greatest books ever written of course,and when you've finished it you must watch the 1995 tv miniseries version with Jennifer Ehle and Colin Firth.While I think Keira Kneightley is a fabulous actress,I don't think the 2005 movie was as good as the TV series.Sorry for the aside folks :)

Thanks for your feedback and support for Qing Wen! That's how we make the lessons and tools better for you.

Mikeinewshot,

Your point of the paradox of Chinese culture, ostentatious and humble. I think one word will provide some explanation, 礼/li3, which means ceremony, ritual, courtesy, norms,  discipline. I watched a program about this very concept. The scholar said this word  礼 with its multiple (and sometimes conflicting) implications defines Chinese cultrue. Come to think of the paradox, it does make sense.      

Jenny

What you say about 礼 is very interesting, but I confess I do not fully understand what you mean.  Maybe a subject for a lesson (I guess it would have to be an advanced one, which sadly I would have trouble in following :-().

Mike,

That's I was thinking too! But just to expand on what I said about 礼.  In essence, it was a code of conduct in feudalistic times and went through different stages of development. Its origin was largely a code of conduct regarding worshipping a higher being. It was very ostentatious, sacrificing animal, food and elaborate rituals. That started as early as in 夏朝/xia4 chao2/Xia Dynasty，which is 2070 BC to 1060 BC. But this tradition resulted in a rather corrupt set of beliefs and conduct in the society. So some key intellectuals and officials added a moral angle to 礼， emphasising on humility, respect and honor. End result is a dichotomy that is at the heart of Chinese culture.

Hi mike

Chinese 礼 is more a formality/ceremony than etiquette/manners/decency, and it's closely associated with 面子 in modern China. You can find a typical 礼 in the seating order at a banquet in China, which is very important in Chinese society. On the other hand, so called "table manners" (in the western sense) is not included in the concept of Chinese 礼.

lvyauhua wrote,

In Chinese, the meaning of 面子 has notihng to do with one part of you body---face.

What Ivyauhua said might be right. According to 现代汉语词典，the definitions of 面子 is as follows,

1. 物体的表面 / 这件袍子的表面很好看。
2. 表面的虚荣 / 爱面子，要面子，伤了他的面子
3. 情面 / 给面子，碍于面子，只好答应了。
4. 粉末 / 药面

The character 面 has a meaning "face", but judging from the definitions in the dictionary, 面子 does not necessarily indicates "a face", but it strongly connotes "superficial". 丢脸 and 丢面子 happen to have a similar meaning, but they seem to be "etymologically" different from each other.

Hi mikeinewshot, changye and jenny

It's often useful to look at the traditional forms of characters.  礼 used to be 禮. In both cases, the radical on the left is an altar. The right, according to Wenlin, shows

 乚 is simplified from 曲 over 豆, representing a vase full of flowers, offered as a sacrifice to the gods. This simplification dates back at least to 567 B.C. (Wieger p.383).

My nerdy scholarly side makes me reluctant to use any single word, no matter how complex, to define a culture. But I will be the first to say that 禮 is definitely huge in China.

I may have posted this before, but the scholar I mentioned in this podcast, 費孝通 describes three general types of social control.

人治 -- rule by men, i.e. strongmen, dicatorships.

法治 -- rule by law, the ideal in constitutional democracies

礼治 -- rule by ritual and custom, and the authority that these provide. The rulers are the ones who adhere best to 礼, and this is the source of their legitimacy. He felt that China was a 礼治 system.

For a modern example, the CCP insists on annual growth of at least 8%. In theory this is based on economic needs (low enough to avoid crazy inflation, high enough to absorb the new graduates/migrant workers.) In reality, it is because Deng Xiaoping set this goal in the early 1980s, and no leader has dared to depart from this precedent, which has been successful so far. It's a tradition disguised as a policy.

Hi pete

Seeing the traditional form "禮" and its etymology reminded me of a Chinese proverb, "仓廪实则知礼节，衣食足则知荣辱" (Well fed, well bred). I must agree with this. That said, "well fed" doesn't necessarily lead to "well bred", haha.

I really enjoyed this Qing Wen. 沒面子 is the same as 丟臉 right? 丟臉 to throw your face, shameful. My father would monitor my grades in school because 不及格很丟臉

Hi ewong

Great question. Actually there are distinctions between 面子 and 脸. We will talk about these in a Qing Wen to be released very soon.

Great lesson ! I like the personal (and hillarious) touch of conversations like the one on Pete's mobile phone. I also like the fact that QW is discussing a lot of cultural aspects nowadays. I wasn't aware that 面子 is that negatively connotated. I really thought of it more like 'respect' in general...I would have come up with situations like praising someone publicly as giving him or her face and criticising someone publicly as making him or her loose face. Just my random associations, anyways...

面子 ever so often leads to people on the street just pointing me in a random direction when i ask for the way, instead of admitting they have no idea..

I believe that this face saving or showing off is part of every culture not only Chinese culture.  One time or another, each of us is guilty of this.  It is just a matter of degree how much we indulge ourselves in this negative human behavior. 

Another great 请问lesson!

孩子在学校表现优秀，家长很有面子！^_^

Sometimes we will use“赏脸” to mean kindly accept/show appreciation.

Anyway给面子and赏脸（shang3lian3）have the same meaning.

研究新老師您好﹗

今天給你的大盤走勢預測沒錯吧﹖

現在同你講下面子

有人說面子是亞洲特產

其實國外對面子操縱程度還厲害

有過之而不及的境界。

有個故事﹕

"我發誓﹐我從來沒有跟那個女子相愛過"

他不要面子當眾說了這句話﹐

人家愛面子﹐要面子﹐就給了他面子

最後他沒有丟面子 安然下台了。

不過那個第三者就被傷了面子 嗚呼﹗

相愛二字是代詞 原本詞是十八禁。

第二節﹕

狡辯 ( 讓自己好下台 )

辦法如下:-

說謊、否認、強詞奪理、

牙尖嘴銳、不顧一切。

陳博士您好！

故事寫得非常優美

還有，如果想要有這樣的本領（狡辯），還需要學會怎么去

反咬一口、將錯就錯、死不改悔、無理取鬧

也要有卑鄙無恥的品質

若做到，就是天下無雙了

葉老師您好﹗

剛剛再看我寫那個故事才發覺

原來果效是一石二鳥

本來是用來諷刺 "阿彪"的

依家貓貓都有份 簡直屬意外收穫

謝謝指點。

我們哥們兒品學兼優 絕對不會

做缺德、無修養的事情﹐更加

不會做擦鞋仔、契弟之類吧﹗

有時間一齊出來嘆番下

一盅兩件 好嗎﹖

你要龍井還是大紅袍﹖

娜溫絲姬

好啊！都要，還有 普洱、鐵觀音、碧螺春 隨便您選

跟你說說輕鬆話﹕

狡辯 = 攪便 好臭啊﹗