Intermediate - Birth by Chinese Zodiac

Hi zhenlijiang,

As wchan nicely explained, the date of 春节 in the solar calendar varies from year to year, and the new zodiac animal takes effect on the first day of the Chinese lunar calendar, which automatically means that it's still the year of rat (鼠年) here in China as of now, 3:20 p.m. January 25, 2009. It sounds a bit funny to modern Japanese people, but not to Chinese people.

Tomorrow is a double celebration for me and fellow Aussie Poddies;Chinese New Year and Australia day;woo hoo.I'm not too sure how often they coincide but Australia Day is always Jan 26.I'm wondering how the mix will go.I've seen Chinese wear red and gold,but red,green and gold?Chinese Emperors hat with stubbies and thongs? Dim sums and meat pies?Yum cha and bbq's?

長夜老師您好﹗

你們日本的新年和我們中國的有什麼分別﹖

你們的十二生肖跟我們一樣嗎﹖

祝 老師和你的狗狗新春大吉 牛年好運﹗

陳博士

Hi Bababardwan!

Happy Australia Day tomorrow mate!

I suppose green is the colour for Australia?

文采漢

PS Are you following the Australian Open? Please keep an eye for Zheng Jie 鄭潔 for us

Hi Bababardwan!

BTW if you happen to bump into John Llyod (the AO tennis commentator) tell him its the year of the the Ox not Goat as he had said on the TV yesterday

Thanks mate

Wchan

Hi 陈博士，

日本十二生肖基本上跟中国的一样。但是，在日本民间习俗中第十二个动物“猪” (pig, boar)变成为“野猪” (wild boar). 这是因为古代日本没有养猪文化，也就是说古代日本人不吃猪肉而吃野猪肉。据说，西藏/越南/泰国的十二生肖里没有“兔”而有“猫”，哈哈，太有意思了。不过，我想老鼠肯定觉得有点紧张，再说猫也不敢站在狗的旁边。

Hi zhenlijiang,

Describing characters by blood types is sometimes very harmful, as you pointed out, because it's often disguised as "science", and therefore, even un-superstitious people are often easily taken in. In fact, it's just nothing more than pseudoscience.

On the other hand, astrology is basically innocent. It's just for fun and can become a good conversation piece for most modern people unless you are very superstitous, since they know that it's scientifically nonsense.

That said, astrology was actually a genuine science in ancient times. In a way, astrology was equal to astronomy. You can say that astrology promoted the development of astronomy, just like the close relationship between alchemy and chemistry.

hi wchan and changye thank you for your very helpful replies--你们真牛啊！

changye i believe you answered the question i originally had which was, on what date did the incoming animal take effect in my birthyear? i see that if i wanted to be a snake i should have arrived 9 days earlier. so i am resigned now, to living w/the curse (!) of the fire-horse ...

wchan 我的名字是"眞利江"写的。没有"中文名字" per se, like most Japanese students of Chinese (we just learn how to read our kanji names in 中文 and go by that).  where you are, how do you eat 年糕 at new years?  toasted or in broths, like we do?

祝大家合家欢乐  笑口常开 

hi changye, had missed your last post.

我并不是不敬重科学的。同时，要我说，科学也并不是绝对的。as i see it, something agreed to have been "proven" in science doesn't actually prove anything that matters to me. i think of science as the common ground on which people can continue asking questions and seeking answers to de-mystify our world.  i'm just comfortable i guess, with not ever being able to really truly know about anything.

oh and another silly conversation-starter i quite like is palm-reading 呵呵

G'day wchan,

xie xie pengyou.Yeah,green and gold are the Aussie colours.You guessed right;I am following the Australian open.Mostly I like to play tennis but I have found a renewed interest in watching the tennis lately since they opened a new tennis centre here in Brisbane earlier this month and I went and checked it out.It's great watching how the pros do it first hand.It helps visualise what you should be doing.I saw briefly on tellie there was a Zheng jie entered in the open and I was naturally interested.Someone mentioned she may be from Taiwan but they weren't too sure.Can you confirm where she's from? I'll have to find out more about her.Should be interesting. I'll definitely have to see if I can catch her play.I didn't hear John Lloyd say that.The open is on down in Melbourne and I don't move in those circles,but in that unlikely event that I do rub shoulders I will be sure to point it out.hehe.

Ok,up to speed now via google.I was getting my wires crossed.It appears there is a male Taiwanese player in the open;Lu Yen-Hsun.Zheng4 Jie2 is from Chengdu and is ranked world number 24.She reached the semi's at Wimbledon last year,beating the world no.1 Ana Ivanovic on the way [and she donated her winnings to the victims of the 2008 Sichuan Earthquake..must be a wonderful person].Also got a bronze medal in doubles at the olympics last year.Wow,she has the talent then.It would be great to see her do well here then.Oh yeah,and she was born in 1983,the year of the pig [water,- yin to be precise]

Ok,up to speed now via google.I was getting my wires crossed.It appears there is a male Taiwanese player in the open;Lu Yen-Hsun.Zheng4 Jie2 is from Chengdu and is ranked world number 24.She reached the semi's at Wimbledon last year,beating the world no.1 Ana Ivanovic on the way [and she donated her winnings to the victims of the 2008 Sichuan Earthquake..must be a wonderful person].Also got a bronze medal in doubles at the olympics last year.Wow,she has the talent then.It would be great to see her do well here then.Looks like she's seeded 22 in the Australian Open and has made it through to the fourth round where she will be up against 8th seed Svetlana Kuznetsova.Jiayou Zheng4Jie2.Oh yeah,and she was born in 1983,the year of the pig [water,- yin to be precise]

Hi zhenlijiang,

You are very right. Nobody knows that even the Big Bang theory can survive the 21st century. What really matters is an inquiring mind of human beings. That said, in reality, I'm just busy digesting and memorizing something other clever guys offers, often without thinking for myself, haha.

By the way, I have an interesting book titled "汉字中的动物" (Animals in Chinese characters), where the author explains a person's typical character based on zodiac animals. Of course, it's merely superstition, but studying the cultural aspect and history of superstition is a social science.

The author says the people belong to "午马" (horse, your animal) is 灵魂自由的忙人，奔放洒脱，志在千里，喜欢表达自己，具有梦想，具有独立精神，自信心强，待人和气，精力充沛，但有时显得比较急躁和鲁莽。不喜欢受任何限制的人，老说"我反对.....。" 属马的人天性具有叛逆的成分，生性不服输。在感情上喜欢独享秘密，不愿受人管教。缺点：自负，不考虑他人的观点。优点：洞察力强，自制力强。 It's not so bad.

I belong to 亥豕 (pig), and "my character" is  无拘无束的游人，坦率，洒脱，温顺，大度，有福，温和而又与人为善的猪老说，"我喜欢.....。" 属猪的人总是追求舒适的生活，总怕没有安全感，注重物质享受。属猪的人表面温顺，但又有其刚毅的一面。"毅"字中就有"豕"。属猪的人坚韧不拔，勇往直前的拼劲。缺点：有些优柔寡断。优点：刚毅淳朴，心地善良。 Wow, I didn't know I was 淳朴 and 善良！

All I can say is that "a horse" and "a pig" can get along very well, at least, at my home. My wife is "火马", just like you, haha.

hi changye,

shouldn't you be busy right about now helping make 饺子 and stuff? anyway ... 有趣得很。 now i will need to get my dictionary and figure out everything the passage says about the horse (and pig), but i do understand 老说"我反对..." which makes me laugh (even though i don't say that nearly as much as 我真受不了...), as does 不考虑他人的观点.  this reminds me, a palm-reader once took one look at my hands and told me i had such a じゃじゃ馬の相！ both hands. meaning i'm disposed to leave home, get out and go all over the world and not be tied down, that i'm unsuited to settle down.  but i haven't lived like a じゃじゃ馬.

a very happy 牛年 to you and your fire-horse wife and tiger daughter (tiger girls are good!)!

Hi zhenlijiang,

You guessed it right. I'm going to 包饺子 with some of my friends in about an hour. I can hear the sounds of Chinese firecrackers (鞭炮) outside now. My friends are watching 春节晚会, but I must say it's just as boring as 紅白歌合戦 in Japan.

The last line in your above comment reminds me of "じゃじゃ馬億万長者" (The Beverly Hillbillies), a famous American comedy drama I often saw when I was a child in 1960s. Maybe "じゃじゃ馬" (a restive horse) could be translated as "男人婆" in Chinese.

それにしても「じゃじゃ馬の相」とは、さすがに丙午だけのことはありますな、ご本人は承服していない模様ですが。笑　私の「ひのえ馬」の妻も子供のころはかなりの「お転婆」だったようです。では、日本人にとりましては今年二回目となりますが、よい年をお迎えください。

真利江同学您好！

恭喜发财

Our Cantonese 年糕 is made of glutinous rice flour and brown cane sugar. So eaten freshly made, its some sort of chewy like toffee. When the cake has hardened, we will cut it into small pieces and shallow fry 煎年糕。 We do not eat it in broths. However there is a上海年糕which we can buy in the shop all year round and eat either in broths or stir fry. Yummy !

So, as I understand, 真利江is the Kanji of your 日本名字吗？

Good day Bababardwan！

恭喜发财！

谢谢for posting Zheng Jie's lovely photo.

Did you know that she had won the 2006 Australian Open Ladies Doubles with Zi Yan who is also from 成都。

And in the same year they also won the Wimbledon Ladies Doubles

Wow its cool mate!

Have a wonderful day ( double celebrations) today 朋友

新年好 wchan!

那你们广东的年糕是一种甜食。mmm... 听起来很好吃。

i know you can't use the 眞 character in simplified, but this is precisely the kanji used in my 日本名字。用罗马字，写 marie。

恭喜发财

新年好 for the second round changye,

my dictionary gives me 悍妇 for じゃじゃ馬.  男人婆 looks scarier, like a transsexual--i don't know!

i know Beverly Hillbillies but have never seen it. and yes 紅白歌合戦 is ridiculously bad, but at least it only drags on for 3-4 hours.

Hi wchan,

Please be noted that 眞理絵 is a given name. Three-character names, both family and given names, are not uncommon in Japan, while the most common pattern of Japanese names is "a two-character family name + a two character given name".

Hi zhenlijiang,

悍妇 seems to be a somewhat formal/classical way of saying "じゃじゃ馬". You can even find the word in a poem of 白居易. Furthermore, 悍妇 connotes much more negative than 男人婆. There should be some guys who like 男人婆, but very few who makes a pass at 悍妇!

P/S. 中国春节晚会 is also a doodling "four-hour" show!

谢谢长夜老师

无论是悍妇或男人婆 小生怕怕！

Hi wchan,

Correction : It's not 眞理絵 (ma-ri-e), but 眞利江 (ma-ri-e). FYI, there are a lot of "marie" in Japan, such as 真理江,　麻里江,　万理江,　万里江,　麻理江,　麻利江,　真理絵,　麻里絵,　万理絵,　万里絵,　麻理絵,　and so on. Flood of homonyms is one of the characteristics of the Japanese langugage.

hi changye

thx much for clearing things up about my name, and making the correction!  i guess i was missing the point of wchan's question.  yes even friends i've had since childhood often get the 利 or the 江, or both, characters wrong, when they send me new year cards for instance.  but it never happens when they send wedding invitations!   and i had wondered about the connotations of 悍妇.  see what i mean about dictionaries frequently being useless--still, you can't do w/out them.

Hi zhenlijiang,

I've found other translations for "じゃじゃ馬", 野丫头 (ue3 ya1 tou) and 淘气姑娘 (tao2 qi4 ku1 niang). I feel that 野丫头 might be the best translation for じゃじゃ馬、and 男人婆 for お転婆 (hoyden, tomboy), perhaps, although there is no guarantee, hehe.

As for dictionaries, yeah, you are very right. So you need to look up, at least, two or three dictionaries, preferably including a synonym dictionary. Internet is also a useful tool for finding whether a word is frequently used or not in modern Chinese.

By the way, what Chinese dictionary (published in Japan) do you use now? Mines are 中日/日中词典（小学館, 初版）.

hi changye,

i also use the same dictionaries you do (第2版, on the CASIO Ex-Word which also has 大修館's 中日大辞典 but i don't turn to that one as often for some reason). i also have in printed form 東方書店's 東方中国語辞典and 講談社's 日中辞典 as well as the 岩波 中国語辞典簡体字版, which i haven't looked at in ages. though i've been lazy and impatient and rarely consult mine lately, i am a printed-book dictionary snob at heart.   last year i thought i would take on the 講談社 日中辞典 as i would an epic novel, hoping to read 5 pages a day and complete it in 8 months or so. but gave up very quickly!  discovering that it takes HOURS of concentration to read one page of the reams of information contained w/in all that small print ...  i mean to try again someday. maybe with another dictionary.

it's important to try to find the answers on your own, but best to then also have good people to ask.  问问热心的老师们师兄们师姐们还是最好的！ Cpod 棒极了

wchan,

你也是；恭喜发财，恭喜发财。新年快乐。

Yeah,I saw all of Zheng Jie's amazing achievements including the ones you mentioned.There were just too many to enumerate.I looked out for her today but didn't see her.I'll have to try and work out when she's playing as I'm very interested now.I had a great day thanks and I hope you did too.Cheers mate :)

Hi zhenlijiang,

I envy you for having such good dictionaries. I didn't know at all that CASIO sells an electronic dictionary that contains 中日大辞典（大修館）. That's just great. The prestigious dictionary lists more than 200,000 words, including archaic words, which must be helpful when reading classical Chinese. 

Haha, it must have been a rather tough job to "read" a dictionary, even if it's a nicely edited one. Why didn't you "read" 東方中国語辞典 instead of that. I hear 東方辞典 is a good dictionary. It's not thick, but shows you a lot of tips about grammar/eymologies and Chinese culture. It was edited by 相原先生, wasn't it?

I guess that 中日/日中辞典 published by 講談社 are very good. Honestly, I've long been wanting both of them, but they are too expensive. I wish Chinese dictionaries sold in Japan were as inexpensive as English ones. I can't afford them, much less an electronic dictionary. So I basically buy dictionaries here in China. Their prices are reasonable.

Speaking of 岩波中国語辞典、I happened to come across its counterpart, the first edition of 岩波日中辞典 (by 倉石先生) at a used bookstore here in China a few years ago. I was very delighted when I found it. I thought that maybe it was fated, so I immediately bought it without thinking.

Just like you, I'm also an ardent fan of paper dictionaries. Lately I've been reading 甲骨文辞典 bit by bit in bed every night, haha. In China, you can get a lot of good dictionaries, modern and classical ones included, that you can never find in Japan. This is one of the advantages of living in China. Let's enjoy learning! Good night.

hi changye,

i'm sure there are so many great dictionaries to be found over there. i've only been to a used bookstore once but was thrilled to find 4 of the series of children's illustrated 辞典 from the late 80s-early 90s i was hoping to find in China. yes, books in general are just so expensive in Japan.  i wasn't going to buy an electronic dictionary at all (being completely disdainful of them), but got nervous at my impending trip to Shanghai--my first time on the 大陆--after only a year of studying Chinese. so at the last minute i ran out and got the then latest model Ex-Word which i guess had just incorporated the 中日大辞典 as a new feature, that was in 2007.

the 東方 is pretty thick actually. it's edited by a team including 相原先生. 相原先生 edited, or looks like he practically wrote, the 講談社 日中辞典. both these are full of cultural notes. but i think i shall first read my 岩波, as it's a smaller volume giving more concise definitions and just looks a lot more accomplish-able.

for anyone who thinks it's a waste of time to read a dictionary, it's worthwhile to me because i believe it takes us the second encounter with a 生词 for it to actually "stick", even if you are a reasonably earnest student. so if you feel like you haven't learned anything the first time--OK. the next time you hear or see a word already once encountered should be payola (but yes i know this is a geeky kind of thing to do ...).

Hi zhenlijiang and changye

Reading dictionaries is absolutely not a waste of time. It is my favorite way of forming connections among words, which can hop and jump in amazing and wonderful ways in Chinese.

hi pete

one of the reasons i came to Chinesepod--i had this feeling i would find other "geeks" like me here  !(^^)!  很高兴认识你

Hi zhenlijiang,

I've also used 岩波中国語辞典 bofere. I remember it's a rather unique dictionary, where all the words are shown in piinyin alphabetical order just like ordinary English dictionaries, regardless of what Chinese character a word begins with.

This dictionary was edited around 1960, so I guess the author was probably deeply influenced by the "get rid of Chinese characters" movement in China at that time, which led to him to employ this system. If 毛泽东 had known the dictionary, he would have loved it.

I have two a little uncommon Chinese dictioinaries. One is 基礎中国語辞典（by 講談社）, where all the words are arranged in order of A-I-U-E-O (Hiragana) based on Japanese readings of Chinese characters. This might be helpful for beginners, but I don't think using this dictionary would enbale you to make progress in learning Chinese. Don't ask me why I bought it, haha.

Another one is so-called "reverse dictionary" (逆引き辞典). It's called "逆序词典" in Chinese. This is very useful for me, at least. You can see a lot of related words in the same page, for example, 鲍鱼，比目鱼，黄花鱼，鲸鱼 under the character "鱼", or 办法，兵法，方法，做法 under "法". Furthermore, it's also convenient when you don't know how to read the first character in your target word.

Hi zhenlinjiang,

You are right. I have a very poor memory, so repeated "encounters" with a big word is the only way for me to memorize it. I'm afraid that I'm not diligent enough to read a Chinese dictionary page by page, but I always try to glance over other words listed under a direction character when I look up in a Chinese dictionary.

I don't recommend that elementary learners do this, but it would be beneficial for intermediate and higher level learners. Honestly, I still have a lot of (easy) characters that I can never correctly remember their tones. I sometimes think learning languages is just a matter of memory. I wish I had a good memory!

Hi zhenlijiang,

P/S. That said, a poor memory sometimes works favorably for you. For instance, you can enjoy reading the same mystery novel several times. This is not a joke, at least. for me.

hi changye,

岩波中国語辞典 is an irregular dictionary for sure. i didn't realize such a movement could be behind it though--how interesting.

entries by order of hiragana would probably be very annoying for me; also i happen to think that the pinyin system is a very good one that enables foreign (limited though? to those who speak English or other Latin languages like natives?) learners to reproduce the 普通话 sounds accurately.

a 逆序词典 i should get. i do waste quite a bit of time looking for certain compound words.

unlike small children just learning to speak, we mature students of foreign languages lack terribly in vocabulary in relation to all the things we want to say.  so i feel it's valid to do something a little drastic in an effort to make up for that.  i just think it takes that much work, to become fluent like you all.

i envy your "ability" to enjoy the same mystery novel multiple times--also, i bet that you would have to be scrupulously honest at all times, with a memory like that!

Hi zhenlijiang,

Yeah, you are right. I'm a very honest guy, hehe. As you know, a liar should have a good memory, unlike me. Speaking of Hanyu pinyin, actually it's a big help for us foreign learners of modern Mandarin, however, at the same time, the alphabetical phonetic symbols sometimes confuse learners.

For example, there are three slightly different sounds for pinyin "i", such as "shi", "si", and "xi". Those three sounds are cleverly represented by different signs in bopomofo (注音符号, ㄅㄆㄇㄈ), another pinyin system used in Taiwan, but not in Hanyu pinyin. In short, it's a kind of unwritten rules.

Hi zhenlijiang,

Chinese inteligencia traditionaly love editing and publishing dictionaries.

The oldest one dates back to more than two thousand years ago, however, the ways of arranging entry characters and words differ from age to age. In general, finding your target word in ancient dictionaries is rather difficult. It takes academic knowledge to use them efficiently.

The characters/words arrangement in modern Chinese dictionaries are originated in an ancient dictionary titled "字汇", edited in China about four hundred years ago, where all the radicals, direction characters and entry words are arranged in stroke count order.

So the first character listed in this type of dictionaries is, of course, "一" (one). This was an epoch-making innovation in the history of Chinese dictionaries. That famous 康熙字典 (1716) also followed this innovative format.

Most Chinese character dictionaries (漢和辞典) in modern Japan are edited based on 康熙字典. Ironically enough, you usually can't find this kind of "authentic/traditional" Chinese dictionaries anymore in modern China (the PRC), the kingdom of Chinese characters.

Almost all the dictionaries published after the introducation of Hanyu pinyin employ "alphabetical order arrangement", fortunately and thankfully for us foreign learners. If ancient Chinese scholars knew about this, they would certainly be astonished!

hi changye

(btw this discussion has long had nothing to do w/生肖...)   just the thought of all those dictionaries left to read has my head spinning. the things i don't know that would fill libraries ...

in pinyin, it's true the shi si xi pronunciations of "i" aren't apparent to the eye. but once taught, you know it and don't have to be taught again. i was thinking about things like ju qu xu, where i think anyone who speaks English or another Latin language would know to make the ü sound whereas Japanese-only students seem to need to be taught, then make an effort to remember.

my teacher told us our 漢和辞典s are very interesting, which i hadn't appreciated until she pointed it out.  btw she was looking up the recurring line from the anime 一休さん--the zen catechism-opener 「そもさん」. she was surprised to learn, as i'm sure you know, that it's 作麼生 / 怎麼生 (or 什么生?). そもさん is also listed in 広辞苑 as an adverb.  but that's just one example, of even highly-educated Chinese who have studied Japanese or lived here for years surprisingly unaware of the extent that our culture has benefited from Chinese culture.  it is ironic indeed. you would think they would know, being so proud of theirs (i don't mean this as a sarcastic dig on the Chinese people. it is simply true).

and of course, there's also a lot of un-awareness on our side.  so much to learn and life so short!

Hi zhenlijiang,

Dont't worry, we are talking about something related to languages, at least. So I believe pete wouldn't warn us ... unless we begin to post comments written only in Japanese, haha.

Yeah, Hanyu pinyin are rather tricky phonetic symbols. It seems to be easy for foreign learners to master, but actually there are a lot of "traps" or "pitfalls" waiting for you in them.

You need to correctly learn them at the very early stage of learning Mandarin, otherwise 一辈子就完蛋了！ "Pinyin/IPA symbols" comparison tables are helpful for understanding 汉语拼音.

Hi zhenlijiang,

一休さん (Ikkyu-san) is very popular among Chinese children, too. It's called "聪明的一休" in Chinese. The pre-modern reading of 作麼生 was something like "tso-mo-shan", and therefore its Japanese transliteration そもさん (so-mo-san) really makes phonetic sense.

Your comment reminded me of a word "なむさん" (na-mu-san, 南無三) used in the theme song rylics of the Japanese anime. 広辞苑 says it also ogirinated in a Chinese buddhist term "南無三宝", but とんちんかん seems to be a made-in-Japan word, unfortunately (?). 

Come to think of it, Japanese 国語辞典 is a rather "unique" dictionary. Frustratingly (especially for foreing learners of Japanese), you can't look up a word without knowing how to read it beforehand. If you don't know it, you have to go get a Kanji dictionary (漢和辞典).....gee.

Hi zhenlijiang,

I understand how your Chinese teacher feels about Japanese. Modern Japanese language still preserves not only ancient readings and meanings of Chinese characters, but also archaic Chinese words and phrases that are only used in formal Chinese writings today.

For example, 今日/昨日, both are frequently used in Japan, are also used in China, but they are rather formal words in modern Chinese. Chinese people commonly use 今天/昨天 instead of them. Conversely speaking, serious Chinese writings are not necessarily very difficult for Japanese people to read.

The same goes for some sayings. "羹に懲りて膾を吹く" is occasionaly heard in Japan, but its counterpart chengyu "惩羹吹齑" is rarely used in modern Chinese. Another good example is "龙头蛇尾" in Japanese. Chinese people usually use "虎头蛇尾", which is the newer version of 龙头蛇尾. In short, the 龙头-version is already "out of date" in China.

As you know, ancient Japanese inteligencia absorbed Chinese culture mainly through books, dictionaries and Buddhist scriptures, which means that our ancients primarily learned written Chinese words. And those words have survived over more than thousand years and are still used in modern Japanese.

哎呀，没完没了，今天到此为止了！

Just came back from Japan and was amazed to see so many "familiar" characters and also recognise some sounds. Somehow Japanese seemed easier than Chinese (to understand), but I could be completely wrong here!

Hi chanelle77,

Did you enjoy staying in Japan? I'm sure that 鎌倉大仏 (Kamakura Daibutsu) gave you a big welcome there!

chanelle, Japanese seeming easier to understand than Chinese?--wow i can't imagine.  might also depend on where in Japan you were.  for instance i will sometimes be on the street and think i'm hearing Korean being spoken, then get closer and realize my ears had tricked me and that it's some Tohoku (northeastern) dialect of Japanese and not Korean at all.  but if a language seems  comparatively easy to your ears, maybe if you ever decide to study it you'll find you have the aptitude for it.  hope you enjoyed your trip here.

Hi all (mostly Changye and zhenlijiang)

While I suppose the best thing would be for you guys to start a "Dictionaries" conversation of your own, Changye is indeed right that talking about languages is fine here.

I am following the discussion with some interest, as I am also starting to study Japanese. Serious research in East Asia requires at least the ability to read Japanese. The difficulty is daunting, but few things worth doing are easy.

hi changye 老师，

hm, i guess i'd assumed incorrectly that all English-speaking students of Chinese felt like i do about pinyin.  it must be personal; for me it just works.

国語辞典s are frustrating for me to use. i'm not half as accomplished in my mother tongue as i should be and have to work at the reading/writing.  not that it's any excuse but i've never been through the Japanese school system and so did not receive any education in 漢文／古文.  just before i began Chinese, i picked up a high-school reference book to crash-teach myself some rudimentary 漢文 and found it interesting, but didn't really go into it any further.  if i went back to that book now i'm sure i would find it a breeze, with my basic knowledge of Chinese.  studying Chinese will get me studying Japanese in depth eventually, and i'm really looking forward to that.

pete, 祝你成功！ which i hope doesn't sound flippant, because it's not meant to be.  i do think Japanese is a difficult language to get started on; i think it's difficult to teach.  i think we all know that 普通话 in this aspect is much more accessible to foreigners.  but also know it's not impossible to learn, mostly because of my Chinese teachers who are so good at it, some of them only having studied Japanese 5 years or so.  your having Chinese as an acquired  language is an obvious advantage, i think better than if it were your mother tongue. 

i think of language learning like free climbing--tough and arduous work, but as long as you keep finding even one spot in the rock to get your fingers or foot in, you can keep going upward. and people who have two or more languages already have more of those spots (could even be fun in that case, not arduous).

Changye and Zhenlijiang: My husband had to drag me to the airport to catch our flight back to China ;-). Did not want to go back Nanjing: me and Japan is love at first sight. The language is fascinating as well as the people and culture.

China and Japan cannot be more different I think after this little trip. This became very obvious when I saw Chinese "queue" at the check-in for the flight back or at least sortof haha. As soon as there is a JPod I'll be the first to subscribe.

ps Changye 鎌倉大仏 was very impressive!

hi chanelle--glad to hear you liked Japan!

if you or anyone else are/is interested, i just started a conversation called 日语 汉语 英文 中文 that is mainly Japan-related so we can move over there 坐一坐聊一聊

Hi chenelle77,

I'm please to hear you've enjoyed your trip to Japan. Yeah, your are very right, Japan is very different from China in many ways, and difference makes things even more interesting!