URLLesson Introduction
When you are drowning in the language pool where fours become tens... or was that a ten becoming a four?? And was 'laji' trash, or garbage, or rubbish? And where are all those 'r's coming from? It is not time to panic. It is time for ear refinement. Yes, it is time for this podcast--part two in the intrigue of the uncommon sounds of the 'common language', Mandarin Chinese.
changye says
May 25, 2008
It’s somewhat difficult for me, and probably for most Japanese, to tell the difference between the pronunciations of “n” and “ng”, therefore listening to “影响” uttered by the southerner in the dialogue really makes me feel relieved! It takes “much energy” for me to precisely say “ying3 xiang3”!! In standard Chinese, at least in a dictionary, 地方 (di4 fang1) means “local”, and 地方 (di4 fang) “place”. I hear that Chinese words frequently used in everyday conversation tend to be often neutralized, such as 孩子 (hai2 zi) and 学生 (xue2 sheng), probably to save energy when pronouncing them.
djsneaky says
May 25, 2008
It'd be nice to hear some western 口音, such as 四川话 or 湖北话. Another random point of interest, sparked by Chanye's mention of the 'ng' sound - I have always wondered how that is pronounced when not preceded by an 'i'? For example, how the Tibetans and Cantonese pronounce 我.
jennyzhu says
May 25, 2008
The differences in accents and speech habits are even more prominent in this lesson than the first one.
dave says
May 25, 2008
I like it.
andrew_c says
May 25, 2008
I find this series of lessons extremely helpful. I think this is the hardest part of understanding Chinese in real life. I noticed that the Chinese words for vegetables have great regional variation, and the different names are not mutually understood between regions. For example, 油菜 vs. 上海青菜.
jennyzhu says
May 25, 2008
acorrigan, The same goes for deep fried twisted dough. In most parts of China, it's 油条/you2 tiao2, but in ceratin parts of Fujian province, they call it 油炸鬼/you2 zha4 gui3/deep fried ghost. Errrr
andrewm says
May 25, 2008
This is really good stuff. This helps me to confirm the various pronunciations that I been hearing. I've been hearing the Taiwanese Mandarin accent quite often, so that the Taiwanese fellow's voice sounds somewhat familiar. However, I don't usually here the word "扔 rēng" as often as I hear the word "丟 diū". I also notice Taiwanese Mandarin that the initial "sh" very often sounds more like the initial "s" and the initial "ch" sometimes sounds like the initial "c" or "s". However, the initial "z" sometimes sounds more like the intial "zh" and the initial "c" sometimes sounds more like the initial "ch". I heard this immediately when the fellow said the word "gōngzuò" which sounded more like "gōngzhuò" to my ears. Whenever I speak I try not to speak this way but it is always fun to switch out to this pronunciation when talking to the teacher. Of course, when it's time to take an oral exam I wound not do this. Off topic, but I was wondering how you would say something that you eat is "chewy" in Mandarin? I just know how to say "Q" or "kiū" which is the Taiwanese-Mandarin word for "chewy". Also why does Amber keep saying "下雨再見 xià yǔ zài jiàn" "See you the next time it rains" at the end of the podcasts?
sushan says
May 25, 2008
see you next time = 下次见 xia4ci4 jian4. Someone tell me if I am hearing an 一 in there somewhere. (下一次） Think your question is very on topic since it illustrates the difficulties in mentally converting heard language into words!
swansong says
May 25, 2008
I've been living in Guangdong since I came to China 4 years ago. I studied Mandarin a little bit with tapes and stuff before I came, and was disappointed (and ashamed!) that I had such difficulty communicating with and understanding the locals. Chinese people who befriended me were kind. "We can help you learn Chinese," they told me! And they did! Everytime I said 我是 for instance, they'd say: "No, no, no. Not Wo3shi4, say wo3si4". "But it doesn't sound like that on the tapes I studied in England," I'd say! If I wanted to buy 四个香蕉 I'd always be offered 10, and if I wanted ten of something, guess how many I'd get? That's right. 4. After I finally got used to people tittering whenever I opened my mouth I guess I'd just decided that I really would never get the hang of this language! Oh ChinesePod is really cool btw. Maximum respect to all you guys who work so hard to make it what it is, I wish I'd discovered it sooner. I only have 2 suggestions right now. One thing is I've just started seriously learning 汉字 and I find the size of the characters (especially on the expansion page) really small. It'd be neat if you could redesign that page so it was more like a Powerpoint slide or some such. Oh and could you do a lesson on getting clothing altered by a seamstress, like shortening trousers for example? That'd be cool.
artkho says
May 26, 2008
The lesson reminded me of my last days in Chicago. 5 colleagues from China took me out for Yunnan food. One of them grew up in Shanghai. He was telling the whole group about his recent trip to the Charlotte office where he met one of our female Chinese colleagues. She refused to believe that he is from China because she insisted that his Mandarin doesn't sound right. He was so frustrated that he asked my four other Chicago Chinese colleagues what was wrong with his accent. There was nothing wrong. He must have caught our unique Charlotte Chinese colleague on a bad day. :D
amber says
May 26, 2008
hi andrewm, At the end of Dear Amber I always say: 下一次见 (Xià yīcì jiàn) Which means "See you next time". It is also OK to say: 下次见 (Xiàcì jiàn)
huan9 says
May 26, 2008
I agree it would be good if the characters were bigger on the vocabulary list and expansion. I can change the text size on my screen to make it bigger but it's still too tiny to see all the strokes when I print of the vocabulary list. The Cantonese say laap saap for garbage. I suspect those are the same characters as what the Taiwanese people say (if the Taiwanese people were to use the characters). Hong Kong people also say 油炸鬼 (yau ja gwai) instead of 油条. There seem to be tons of these different word choices between Mandarin and Cantonese. To read a legend connected with this food, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youtiao
thedaojeff says
May 26, 2008
That si 四 （4）, shi 十 (4) thing, mentioned in the above intro, has gotten me into loud pointless arguments a number of times. I also remember last time was in 上海 meeting someone who was a proclaiming to be a "SangHaiRen" (lacking the 'h", very cute). I think these accent lessons are very useful. I remember learning so much Mandarin and then going out in ShanXi and I couldn't understand anyone. They could understand me, but I couldn't understand them for about 2 years. I suppose it would be like someone studying American English and then walking into a Scottish pub in Scotland and attempting to converse using English for the first time. Being someone who lives in the PRC (and not in Shanghai, I don't often (or actually ever) meet people who speak with the Taiwan accent, just movies and TV shows, (So, thank you. These lessons should help me understand those crazy Taiwan soaps better. I am not sure if I want to or not though.) Can anyone recommend any really good Taiwan movies or TV shows?
jlramsey75 says
May 26, 2008
Hi, I've just signed up and I have to say your system is genius. It's by far the best language course I have ever come across. I lived in Taiwan for three years so speak a fair amount of mandarin. However, having been back in the UK for 6 years now I have been frustrated by the lack of opportunity to keep up the lingo. I am so pleased to have discovered this site. Brilliant and alot of fun! Thanks, James UK
dpay02 says
May 26, 2008
Loving these lessons, I have friends from all over China including these three areas as I'm studying in Chinese at university, it's a great way to hear different accents and variations. I definitely think you need to keep this series going:) Soon you have to introduce some Guangdong mandarin since they are the most commonly seen Chinese people abroad. Li hao!!!
badfish3885 says
May 26, 2008
People say that the most 标准 Mandarin is in the North, but man, is it difficult to understand those Beijing taxi drivers. Not only do they say 哪儿, but make it sound like "rar." Ahh...Beijing 儿音. I hope this visa madness works itself out, so I can go back this summer. I recently met some girls from Taipei, and we talked about some of the Mainland-Taiwan language differences. They cracked up when I said 汉堡包. Apparently the "包" isn't tagged on in Taiwan. In our text message exchanges, I noticed a couple more things. Instead of saying 有没有, they said 有有. The other thing was ending questions with that "Y" character.
sarahjs says
May 26, 2008
These lessons are great. On the program Chinese School (On the BBC in the UK) there was a girl from a province (can't remember the name) and she went to Beijing for a three day course on broadcasting. the people there said they couldn't understand her and even asked her if she was speaking Mandarin!!, the only difference was that she spoke quite nasally when the Beijing were more throaty, when she went back home she was told she spoke posh! Please can we have more examples of regional accents, and maybe some Shanghainese, that would be lovely!
maxiewawa says
May 26, 2008
I'm from Australia, one of the farthest flung outposts of the english ln the world, so I admit that I am a little biased when I say that there is no "correct" accent in any language. I think that it's a myth perpetuated by midwest americans, beijingers, tokyoites, and parisians; that their accent is "correct" and that others should speak like them. It was mentioned that Jenny's accent isn't "correct"... I was mildly offended by that... To say that Jenny's accent marks her as Shanghainese, I'd say "of course", but to say that there's something wrong with that, I'd say "of course not". Do others feel the same?
tvan says
May 26, 2008
badfish3885, I think Beijing always claims it's standard, but they have their own dialect as well.
aaaa0441 says
May 26, 2008
I would like to point out a mistake. There is a gramatical difference with the occurrence of the character "le" (了). It explicitly changes the tense of the sentence to past tense, whereas the sentences without "le" are more like simple present tense. "垃圾扔哪去了?" means "Where was the garbage thrown?" or "Where did you throw the garbage?" But "垃圾扔到哪里去?" means "Where to throw the garbage?" So, if somebody threw your garbage but you want to retrieve something important that you misplaced in it, use the former one. If you are new to a place and have no idea where to threw garbage, use the latter one.
andrewyong says
May 26, 2008
油條 in Minnan is 油炸粿 iu-tsa-kue. 粿 means cake/dough. We don't say 河粉 but instead 粿條 kue-tiau, however when it is printed on menus in Cantonese restaurants they write it 贵刁
jiajie says
May 26, 2008
Maxiewawa, I agree with your sentiment on accents, as a Kiwi I find that most Europeans think I'm from Australia, most Americans think I'm from the UK but Chinese generally have no clue, they just guess, American? British?. Yet when our school sells classes to corporate client some of the clients specifically request American trainers as though they have some standard accent. Load of 垃圾 if you ask me! :) . If I don't tell them where I am from they often tell me they like my English because it is very clear and easy to understand. so I think someone with a regional Chinese accent can communicate clearly if they want to. I studied Chinese for 3 years at University in NZ and I can understand most of the Upper Int and some of the avdanced listening material on Chinesepod and can also have quite fluent conversations with some Chinese. But as I have been living in China for only two months and I am in Shanghai, I really do struggle sometimes to communicate even simple instructions to taxi drivers. Some of the people in Shanghai use 普通话 with a very 上海话 influenced accent, which as you say is not wrong but it certainly presents a challenge for me. This kind of lesson is great, more please, how about one with a Shanghai taxi driver?
andrew_c says
May 26, 2008
maxiewawa, Unlike English, I was under the impression that there is some official standard of what constitutes standard Mandarin. When John said that Jenny's accent is not perfect, it's just with respect to some artificial standard.
lunetta says
May 26, 2008
There's a big difference between pointing out that someone's accent is non-standard and saying it's not correct. Unfortunately people do judge you on basis of your accent, sometimes not even consciously. A part of language learning is also learning about the different assumptions people make based on a certain accent or choice of words.
badfish3885 says
May 26, 2008
tvan, While 北京话 technically is a different dialect, it's almost exactly the same as Mandarin. Beijing cab drivers are speaking Mandarin, just with a heavy "r" accent. This contrasts with Cantonese and other dialects, which are de facto totally different languages.
antoniov says
May 26, 2008
Good lesson
mark says
May 26, 2008
Question: Where is a standard accent spoken? It is a bit hard to believe 北京. Small grumble: I'm feeling input deprived this week. Sun-Sun there was no UI lesson, and this lesson feels like its not quite a CPOD lesson. That said, I like having material on accents alot. So, I'm conflicted.
ancalagon says
May 26, 2008
Apologies in advance for this question being unrelated to the podcast. Is there some way for a member to 'stay' logged into to Chinese Pod? It's pretty frustrating and a bit cumbersome to have to log in every single time I visit the site.
jtanzer says
May 26, 2008
You ask if this subject is useful. YES! I took three years of college Chinese and got pretty good, but once I used it in the real world (i.e. mainly among immigrants in New York), I found it really hard to understand people from different areas, especially the south and Taiwan. (I still can barely understand Shanghai people.) So learning to hear the accents was a really important step in the learning process, and these lessons are really helpful.
andrewm says
May 26, 2008
Thank you Sushan and Amber for clearing that up for me. That was like a thorn stuck in my foot. I usually say 下次再见 xià cì zài jiàn, so now I can see that I have interpreted "次 cì" as "再 zài". However, it's already too late. Now every time it rains I ask myself where is Amber. I just remember that little avatar picture with her name beside it. ;-)
skyblue888 says
May 26, 2008
hi does jenny have a regional accent? which part of china is she from? thanks
adineichler says
May 26, 2008
Now it's clear why I had such a difficult time understanding Taiwan speech! I had learned Beijing-based 普通话 at UC Berkeley and - as a beginner - I was floored by the lack of retroflex sounds in Taiwanese speech. Now at the very least I know what to look for. Thanks for this valuable lesson!
skyblue888 says
May 26, 2008
is there a way to edit the comments? i was wondering what the people in the northeast sound like, as i hear they have the most "biao zhun pu tong hua"....
curmudgy says
May 26, 2008
Appreciate these! Very useful in New York where the 口音 is all over the place, least frequently the 标准 北京话 普通话 my teacher speaks.
xiaohu says
May 26, 2008
I love this series! The study of different accents is really fascinating. I think it's very important for all of our friends out there learning Mandarin to be well equipped from the very beginning to understand different accents. In fact, different accents is something that tripped me up for years, I could understand the standard Beijing Mandarin just fine, but maybe someone from Taiwan saying the very same sentence in their Taiwanese accent was lost on me, it's a very strange phenomenon. Keep this series coming! It also might help to throw in some 北方话 because of the popularity of 赵本山。 北方话 is in many ways different from the standard 北京普通话, in that they don't use nearly as much 卷舌, however they use a lot of 儿话音. Maybe even explore some of their colloquial sayings. I remember a lesson a couple of years ago with LeGuan and Jenny in which they explored a lot of different accents, and 北方话 was one of those. However that series just explored it without analyzing it, I like how this series is analyzing the differences and letting the listener know what to watch out for. Anyway, keep it up Jenny, John and the rest of the C-Pod crew!
chunmeim says
May 26, 2008
I've got two lessons' pdf, they are very good and helpful. Thank you.
minshirui says
May 26, 2008
我想让你们主持人放心吧！这些关于口音的课是我非常非常喜欢的（好像别的同学也是满同意的）。我希望下一堂口音课也包括象广东、西藏、内蒙古那样地方的口音，因为那些对外国人来说很难找。我希望接下来的课也多有词语的区别，比如“一堂课”或者“一节课”，哪里用“很”、“好”、“满”和“挺”来作副词，等等。 还有呢，这一堂课让我想出来个问题，就是……我的中文老师说过：在北方“地方”平常改成“地儿”，可本课中的北京人还是讲“地方”，所以请主持人说明一下北京人实际上说的是什么？
leosmith says
May 26, 2008
Jenny, This lesson was very useful. I find the "radical" differences, like nali vs. nar, much more confusing than the general differences, like s vs. sh, so I agree that the differences are more radical in this lesson. Is there any way you guys could include more vowel sound differences in your next episode? For example, the one I mentioned before, feng sounding like "fong".
changye says
May 27, 2008
Yesterday I tried hard to find out the reason why “垃圾” is pronounced “lese” in Taiwan, which intrigued me very much, but without success. On the Internet I found several different explanations for that, but none of them were explained very clearly.
I hear that 垃圾 is pronounced “lap sap” or something like that in 广东话 and 闽南话, which obviously has something to do with “le se” in 台湾, and the two characters “垃” and “圾” were pronounced “lap” and “kiek” respectively in ancient China.
And therefore I see no problem in “垃” (lap, la, le), but I don’t understand why ancient “kiek (圾)” became “sap (圾)” in southern dialects. I suspect that a different character was used for “sap” in 广东/闽南话 in the past. Anyway, it’s very interesting.
and0709 says
May 27, 2008
Once you think you've mastered Mandarin, come to Guangdong Province and find out how little you really know. And I'm not talking about trying to understand Cantonese either. When the locals here speak Mandarin and say things like, "Wo si zong guo yen" or "Jintian de tianqi hao ye", or perhaps you could try to decipher "si si si" from "si si si", where one is fourteen and the other is forty four. Maybe a lesson on Guangdong's version of Mandarin would be useful.
hstahl says
May 27, 2008
Love this kind of lesson (as adjunct to the normal lesson structure). I second curmudgy's comment about a wide range of accents in NY. And am sure this bit will be helpful going back and forth between Shanghai and Beijing in June! So thanks.
longdehua says
May 27, 2008
Great idea for lessons but I don't find the examples you give particularly strong versions of the accent. The Beijing one speaks clearly and the other two speak very fast but the accents don't seem that strong. Maybe because they're quite young people – can you find a 60+ year old Shanghainese with a really heavy accent next time? Would be cool ...
penben says
May 27, 2008
I have been listening to old lessons and I was having problems looking up words using pinyin having only heard Jenny's pronunciation, always due to n and ng problems. Now I know why! Now the question is, after talking to somebody from 上海, is there anyway to look up words in a dictionary without trying both versions (-n and -ng)? I love these lessons, very enlightening!
kakashi8682 says
May 27, 2008
Hi, just want to say that i love this lesson. One thing i am curious here, is the 'r' at the back of yi2 huir4 or dai1 huir4 are 'intentionally' added? What I mean here is that do the southerners or taiwanese will speak yi2 hui4 or dai1 hui4 instead? Thank you
jiajie says
May 27, 2008
Yes, I agree with longdehua, although the lesson is useful in analysing the differences, the examples are fairly neutral. I would like to see a lesson like this, perhaps at upper intermediate level with heavily accented dialogues exploring the difference. Communicating with the older people in Shanghai is fun indeed! Thanks.
standuke says
May 27, 2008
Hey guys, great new format... still getting used to it, though.
droppingmyhs says
May 27, 2008
"我不会因为这件事影响比赛。"
Why is there an 因为 in this sentence?
And please don't start your explanation with 因为... ;-)
My gosh, the new font size is unbearably small.*
*And I'm seventeen!
Will there be a lesson where Jenny is actually allowed to let her restraint slip (*cough*) and speak Shanghainese? That would be really interesting and useful, and a natural follow up to this little series.
wolson says
May 27, 2008
我也听了这个台湾的人说工作说得”gong zhou”.
在北京别人说，我说汉语不错。在上海，别人说，你说“儿”太多。我觉得我的老师是北房的人！可是我不知道。
droppingmyhs says
May 27, 2008
Speaking of laji - how would I say "that's rubbish" in Chinese? (Behaups* you could distinguish between slang and colloquial use)
*Perhaps. I think I'm losing it (fafeng le). Love the new editing fuction, though.
yohosuff says
May 27, 2008
I thought it was useful. The way Taiwanese say garbage was particularly interesting.
我以为它很有用.台湾人说"垃圾"的说法特别有意思.
amber says
May 27, 2008
hi droppingmyhs,
我不会因为这件事影响比赛。
Wǒ bù huì yīnwèi zhè jiàn shì yǐngxiǎng bǐsài.
Kind of like in English, "Just because this thing happened, I won't let it affect my performance in the competition."
rash says
May 28, 2008
Why not a serial series with characters who speak in slightly different regional accents? This is real world listening experience those of us not living in China seldom have a chance to hear and use. In China these situations may all the time, and a series of dialogues (not just a list like this lesson) is real life listening practice. I understand learning to speak a specific regional accent might not be effective learning or the goal of Chinesepod, but a series of dialogues could go far and beyond what this lesson provides in terms of really hearing the differences.. This lesson is wonderful, but can't nearly scratch the surface of hearing the differences that occur through numerous examples or dialogue. As a traveller I found certain places were easier to understand than others, and always wished I had more experience with this before actually landing in China and trying unsuccessfully to hear these regional accents.
ewong says
May 28, 2008
Thank you for this lesson, this series is very interesting.
I learned in school , actually what my teacher would say trash bin or garbage can 垃圾桶 le4se4tong3 or垃圾箱. Is it the same in mainland? I can think of another one, when I was listening to the lesson “Cold will kill you” I didn’t understand 空調 because I know air conditoner as 冷氣
changye says
May 28, 2008
Hi ewong,
Both 垃圾桶 and 垃圾箱 are used here in China, and I don’t know for sure if there is a big difference between them, though the character “桶” gives me the impression that it is a little round-shaped, and “箱” is box-shaped. 百闻不如一见, please look at those Google search results. Anyway, I think they are often interchangeable in Mandarin.
垃圾桶 (photos)
http://images.google.cn/images?aq=f&gbv=2&um=1&complete=1&hl=zh-CN&newwindow=1&q=%E5%9E%83%E5%9C%BE%E6%A1%B6&btnG=%E6%90%9C%E7%B4%A2%E5%9B%BE%E7%89%87
垃圾箱 (photos)
http://images.google.cn/images?aq=f&gbv=2&um=1&complete=1&hl=zh-CN&newwindow=1&q=%E5%9E%83%E5%9C%BE%E7%AE%B1&btnG=%E6%90%9C%E7%B4%A2%E5%9B%BE%E7%89%87
weibwo says
May 29, 2008
Excellent lesson. My wife is from Taiwan, My nephew is from Shanghai, My co-workers are from Beijing so I get a heavy dose of accents 口音. They pronounce sh in Taiwan as zi which drives me nuts. I never know exactly what they are saying since the sh sound is used quite often in Mandarin. Different words for simple things like tomato. Dalu: xi1 hong3 shi4 Taiwan: fan1 qie2. I think learning the kou yin is essential. Good job.
melop says
May 30, 2008
changye: I searched 康熙字典, and found the pronunciation of "圾" in classical Chinese should be somewhat like "kiap/kap". The K sound might have changed to "ts" by patalization, forming "tsap". Since the ending for "垃 lap" is "p", the initial "t" got assimilated, yielding "lappsap". So I guess in the Min and Cantonese dialects, the characters should still be 垃圾.
brendan says
May 31, 2008
Was it my imagination, or perhaps an audio glitch? I thought that the Taiwanese pronounced gongzuo more like gongzhou in the second sentence. Anybody?
wangming says
June 4, 2008
These accent lessons are very useful. I hope you do more of them. Also, maybe you can expand it next time to other regions like Hong Kong/Guangdong, Sichuan, etc.
andrew_c says
June 9, 2008
I second wangming's suggestion. I'm particularly interested in hearing the Sichuan accent. I never hear it, even at the local 川菜厅...
sushan says
June 9, 2008
There are a couple of Youtube videos that test one's Sichuanhua listening ability. The test is given in Mandarin so they are a bit hard to follow unless you are upper intermediate at least in Mandarin. After taking one Sichuanhua class I got about a quarter of this Intermediate level test correct.
tvan says
June 10, 2008
Sushan,
Great video. I scored 20% or about what anybody could do guessing. I find that these various dialects that are listed as "close to Mandarin" are often quite difficult for a non-native listener.
pulosm says
June 16, 2008
I think there is a tendency to compare the situation with Mandarin accents to the accent disparity in English among Canadians, Brits, Americans, and among people inside those countries (Manchester vs. London, for, e.g.).
Mandarin isn't like that. It's important to realize that many of these people are not native Mandarin speakers. To that extent, it's like having a lesson on the way Vietnamese people speak Mandarin. Sure, it's interesting, but it's not really a regional pronunciation as a comparison between New Yorkers and Californians would be. People buy into the myth that China is really one country with one language. It's not. Most of the time, speakers of other languages (such as Cantonese) only vaguely try to communicate in Mandarin. They didn't listen to Chinesepod to learn Mandarin! They take it in school, but that's it. So when they speak, they could say "wo" if they wanted, probably, but it's easier to just say "ngo."
Also, Beijingers have accents. They are not speaking Standard Mandarin as learned in textbooks. It's close, but it's still heavily accented. You know this because people on the news don't talk like people who drive taxis.
With Taiwanese, it's the same. People on the news clearly distinguish "shi" and "si." In fact, a lot of people do. It's become a sort of slang not to, and that of course comes from influence from the local Taiwanese (min3nan2) language.
Finally, I think it's important to realize that "Mandarin" as we know it is a constructed language. It's based on the Northern Chinese langauges, but it is a manufactured language native to NO ONE. When it was chosen as China's official language (and this was a battle that Cantonese came close to winning, btw!), it was changed, reworked, and modified to form a standard language.
One example is the "ru4sheng1" or entering tone that many Chinese languages have. Mandarin had this as a fifth (or sixth, if you count the "qing1sheng1", as some do today) tone!!! It was removed and those words were merged into other tones.
The same is happening with Cantonese. There are currently two tonal pronunciations of certain words. For example, "to listen" is "teng." That can be pronounced with a high flat tone or a high flat tone that falls slightly. Eventually, my feeling is, the latter will go away, at least in Hong Kong.
auntie68 says
June 16, 2008
pulosm, I agreed with everything you wrote. Thanks. To be honest, I am dismayed by the "substratum of ignorance" which leads so many people to assume that Chinese dialects are dialects of... Mandarin. I suppose that "the history of Mandarin" would make a very useful CPOD lesson!
All Chinese dialects -- including Mandarin, which is something of a constructed language -- are actually different vernacular forms of something older, which some would call "Middle Chinese".
And the highly prized "Beijing accent" is actually a very strong regional accent, which sounds as distinctive to my ears as a "Boston" accent, or a Quebecois accent (yes, I do watch "Catherine" on TV5!) or a Welsh accent.
If I'm not wrong, even the best-known TV newscasters in China are expected to keep their Beijing accents within certain limits. Eg. I don't think that the way CCTV4's 鲁健 (sp.?) normally speaks, when he is on air, is quite the same as the way he would speak when he is speaking with friends and family and can afford to let his natural accent out.
One of CPOD's greatest strengths is its admirably neutral-sounding Mandarin, which is clear and correct and "natural"-sounding, but... neutral (without ever being "bland"). Thanks CPOD!
Of course, there are very real regional "accents" which distort how Mandarin (as opposed to any other vernacular) is supposed to sound, in its standard version. But this has nothing to do with how "pure" that regional vernacular is.
To be fair, the "Chinese-educated" ethnic Chinese whom I meet tend to accept such distinctions. Eg. to them, the language of Chaozhou (潮州）opera is not merely "impure Mandarin", it is a vernacular which gives us a valuable glimpse into Middle Chinese. I hope this doesn't offend anybody out there, but most non-Chinese I have met don't even have the most basic knowledge concerning the history of "modern Mandarin".
pulosm says
June 16, 2008
Who did the Taiwanese accent? I get the impression that this wasn't a blind test, i.e., they were told pronounce this in a "Taiwanese way." He pronounced "reng" as "leng" and "gongzuo" as "gongzhuo." That type of accent is not considered "correct Mandarin", even in Taiwan.
Also, while this was somewhat balanced (i.e., you tried to portray them as different but equal), when talking about the northern accent as compared to the others, you referred to the former as "zhengque." I think it's helpful to note that adding "er" to everything is actually not Standard Mandarin and that it comes from a Mongolian influence.
I think the way the tones are pronounced is one of the most interesting differences. Beijingers have sharp third tones, whereas Taiwanese speakers rarely complete the third tone (i.e., rise upward). Also, there are tons of words with alternative tones:
coconut: ye1zi (mainland); ye2zi (taiwan)
week: xing1qi1 (mainland); xing1qi2 (taiwan)
I am sure there are tons more, but none are coming to me right now!
tvan says
June 16, 2008
pulosm, thanks for the history. It's been pointed out many times that standard Mandarin is more a center than an actual language in common use. I never had heard that the 儿 sound came from Mongolians before. I did have a couple of questions though.
First, I have no pretentions regarding linguistic history, but I find it hard to believe that Beijing would ever have chosen Cantonese as the national language given both physical distance (from Beijing) and its rather distant relation with other dialects. Are you referring to Mao or an earlier period?
Also, I have to take issue with your contention that speakers of other Chinese dialects/languages only vaguely try to communicate in Mandarin. It seems that the younger generation is pretty much native level. Or did you mean something more subtle?
changye says
June 16, 2008
Hi pulosm,
＞ When it was chosen as China's official language
＞ and this was a battle that Cantonese
＞ came close to winning
Thanks a lot for your informative comments, which have just reminded me of an interesting episode about (or combat over) Standard Chinese I read before. In 1913, a lot of scholars gathered from all over China to discuss the standardization of Chinese characters pronunciation. The name of the working group was 读音统一会.
Some of the top issues at the meeting were 入声 (entering tones) and 浊音 (voiced consonants), both of which had already disappeared in most northern dialects, including 北京话. The scholars came from southern China, who held the majority at the meeting then, naturally opposed strongly to adopting northern pronunciations as a standard.
Finally, the standard pronunciations were determined by MAJORITY VOTE! How democratic! And fortunately enough for 北京话, the vote was conducted on “one-province one-vote” basis, which was a strong suggestion by the vice-chairman of the meeting who was from 河北省. I believe that Cantonese put up a good fight in the lost “battle.”
auntie68 says
June 16, 2008
Hello changye, pulosm, tvan:
I wasn't aware of this "language struggle" before. So thank you!
At that point in China's history -- ie the ROC years, before 1949 --, many of the key (or else, rising) political figures were Hakkas. Eg. Deng Xiaoping, Sun Yatsen, the Soongs, Zhou Enlai, etc. Hakka is a southern vernacular which has much in common with Cantonese. In fact, at one point in time there was even a shadow government in Nanjing, in the South.
This "political aptitude" of the Hakkas is partially explained by the fact that the Hakkas don't have a traditional homeland in China. They are China's internal "diaspora people". Mostly hardscrabble-poor, hence tough and outward-looking, hence... ideal recruits for revolution.
So maybe the idea of a Southern vernacular being given such serious consideration isn't all that outlandish, after all. Thanks again, guys, for giving me this "mind candy" to chew on!
tvan says
June 17, 2008
Auntie68 and Changye, thanks for the explanation. The fact that Cantonese almost won out in the early ROC days makes perfect sense given the Guangzhou and Guangxi's status as the center of resistance against Manchu domination.
Still, I imagine that any decision made in the old ROC faced possible reversal under the PRC.
changye says
June 17, 2008
Hi guys,
Having read auntie68’s above comment, I’ve also become to think that Cantonese might possibly have been selected as 普通话, as pulosm wrote in his comment. You know, 毛泽东 (Mao Zedong) comes from 湖南省！
As for 儿化 in northern dialects, I guess that it must be one of major issues in linguistics in China. I think that it’s highly possible that 儿化 was brought into Chinese from 蒙古语 (Mongolian) or 满族语 (Manchuria).
I heard before that the Mongolia’s rule of China and Korea, between the 12th and 13th century influenced the pronunciation system (and vocabulary) of Chinese, as well as Korean, to some extent. Wow, 儿化 has a long history.
I’ve just found an article that says 儿化 came “mainly” from