The Chinese 档案 includes health issues, which apparently can be used to demerit people. This, unfortunately, is typical of China.

I know that in the US, you do have an academic record which follows you through your schooling, and may also include disciplinary issues. This is different from your "pernanent record" which the police keep, and which really only starts from the age of 18.

As I understand it, this academic record comes into play when a student applies to universities, but not when applying for jobs.

Please, anyone, feel free to correct me (especially American school and university administrative staff!).

Thank you for your useful information. That made me clear out the 管理 of档案.

Here's an English grammar question about the translation of the last sentence. Can you say"during univeristy"?

I never saw the word "university" used this way until I saw it in Chinsepod. In the US, I always heard and said "during college", "go to college", etc. instead of "during univeristy","go to university", etc. even though we went to a univeristy. If we used the word "university", it would most likely be this way: "my university","the university", etc.

"Going to college" is like "going to work" because it's more broad. You wouldn't say "I'm going to company today". You could say "I'm going to my company today".

I know that "colleges" and Universities are not the same (Universities are 4-year), but we still don't say "during university'

(sorry about posting English questions on Chinesepod, but since I'm an English teacher I wanted to ask!)

我有一个英文语法的问题关于最后一句话。我们可以说，"during university“吗？我只在Chinesepod看过这个"during university"；之前没看过。在美国，即使我是本科学生（不是专科学生），我还是使用“during college"。 我们会说“我的大学(my university)“。

上初中，上高中，上大学，都是做得事情，不是去某个地方。虽然他们都是地方，我们不说“上我的高中”。这个好像工作。你会说，“我上班“，不是“我上公司”。

我知道大学跟学院不一样，但是还是说:"go to college"

不好意思问你们一个英文语法问题，但是我是洋人英文老师，所以比较重要！

For example,

I used to study a lot during university.

Achievements during university.

Living at uncle's home during university.

You say that the system can be used to 'demerit people' - how does that work exactly?

You also imply that the system here is inferior to our systems of personal records in the West. I would find it most interesting to hear how you have compared issues of privacy and the impact of personal records on peoples lives etc., between China and the West. It sounds like you know a lot about China.

The way I understood it was that the guy never got the "merit student" status -> "Just because of this (就因为这个) he very often missed being / failed to be (好几次都没) nominated a "merit student".

哪个对？

And what about the "好了" here?

In, "It was over. Just because of this he wasn't awarded the 'merit student' status more than a few times." I meant to convey that he was up for the award, but never got it, more than a few times. So, he never got it!

The 好了 is in the sentence before and is translated as, 'It was over'. This 好了 is similar to 完了, meaning something like, 'He was finished'. (after his behavior was marked down in the record)

Hope that helps. :)

http://www.nypress.com/blog-6248-china-fails-the-honor-system.html

Quite interesting. Perhaps it's indicative of the pressure that students face here, if so many resort to cheating?

Also arguably indicative of the difference in approach to cheating between the East and West (I've heard it referred to as "Shame versus Guilt", whereby in China the risk of shame/losing "face" is far more of a driving/limiting factor than feelings of guilt/conscience)...

But this is rather different to saying 'cheating in exams is rife in China'. In my experience there is no more cheating in exams here than in Australia - exam rules and conditions I have observed are similar to those applied in the West. In fact, Chinese teachers impose stricter conditions than foreign teachers in my university - simply because they are provided more resources. I have to supervise exams alone, but Chinese teachers are provided two supervisors for each exam.

There are different standards here for referencing and attributing ideas etc. but this does not necessarily amount to fraud - there are different standards here that are consistent with the Chinese culture. Those that want to study overseas or publish in foreign journals have to abide by the foreign standards. This is widely understood and accepted in China.

Funny you should bring this up. Some of my students today are going to get a cultural lesson. I rather despise cheaters, and I do try to catch them early on so that they will straighten up for the remainder of my class. I say cultural lesson because, I'm not sure, but I think Chinese teachers normally don't care much. Anyway, I generally pass out two quizzes, but I don't tell them there are two, and from a quick glance they look exactly the same. It is obvious who the cheaters are because their answers are all wrong but are identical to the correct answers of the corresponding quiz. Let's just say five students are going to lose face today despite their efforts to save face. I won't make them a public example, but I'm sure word will spread fast.

By the way, I really don't know enough about the culture of cheating here to comment with much conviction. I just think it's an interesting question. Of course, I am aware cheating is not limited to China, but I do come across this "Shame vs. Guilt" idea quite often.

Cheating is rampant here in China. I have never heard a Chinese person say otherwise, and this has been my observation over and over. If we deny it, we are just trying to be polite. It goes without saying that all countries have cheating. The difference is that in China, everyone thinks it is normal and would never think of complaining to the teacher, administration, etc. That isn't to say there isn't honest students here. There (usually) are, but they seem to feel that it would be hopeless, or wrong even, to try to fight back.

This attitude to cheating is exactly the question I was trying to explore in posting that link, so it's interesting to learn of your findings as a teacher. Of course, it's not a criticism just an observation - an interesting one!

http://www.cpcjapan.com/china/history/historic%20pictures/photo3/cunning001.html

http://www.cpcjapan.com/china/history/historic%20pictures/photo3/cunning002.html

Phil - I didn't understand your 'plan' above (you see how easy it is to pull the wool over my eyes?) You hand out two different tests - what kind of cheating are you catching? Surely not in-exam cheating - you are there to supervise. So they cannot pass answers around the class. How does the cheating work?

No cheating occurs in my exams because I make sure that no one cheats. But maybe there is a way to cheat I have not heard of - please enlighten me?

Yeah, that's one of typical classical techniques that were already used in 科举 a long time ago. Actually, today there are a lot of high-tech cheating techniques in the PRC. I believe even James Bond would be surprised at how sophisticated/advanced they are. As for the girl I mentioned in my previous post, her cheating was very classical, that is to say, she oversaw exam papers of examinees sitting around her, including the daughter of one of my Chinese friends.

PS My friend's daughter's high school has jamming devices in order to prevent cheating. Can you believe that?

It is true that the English standard of a lot of overseas students is not sufficient for university entry - in that case they are required to do more time in a language school. Chinese institutions are largely to blame; for possibly commercial reasons they set the bar too low. This does not prove rampant cheating, but it is common practice for applications for overseas study to be written by agents, and I know that agents prepare referee reports to be signed by Chinese professors. This is not acceptable practice in the West, but there are double standards here - note that the Western businesses (that is, universities and language schools) are fully aware of these practices when they accept students. Let's not all be high and mighty about this.

I have two quizzes that at first glance look the same. In fact, the only difference is the order. Some students don't even bother to look at the questions they are trying to answer. They just copy the student next to them. If the person next to them has a different quiz, the answers will be wrong. I am not exactly sure what is the preferred cheating method, but my guess is simply looking over at another students paper when I am looking the other way or whispering quietly out of the side of their mouths.

I find that the problem of cheating varies according to the situation. The younger the students (and I mean university level students) and the smaller the class, the less likely they are to cheat. For example, my freshmen don't cheat much (as far as I know), and I think the biggest reason is because there are less than 30 students in that class and so I can keep an eye on them. The quiz that I mentioned above is from a class with over 200 students. I caught 5 red-handed. Another 10 or so I'm sure cheated, but since their score was almost zero I didn't call them out. Now in addition to them, I figure a significant number of them managed to successfully evade me. Altogether, I estimate at least 30 students outright cheated the whole quiz (and I believe it was more than that), with who knows how many others cheated on an answer here and there. If I keep an eye one group of suspected cheaters, that means the cheaters on the other side of the room will have all the freedom they want to cheat. It is simply hopeless to prevent all cheating.

By the way, my all time worse group of students were the MBA students. I'm embarrassed to say how little control I had over that test.

Bodawei, personally, I would be shocked to find out that cheating wasn't normal in your university. I teach adult students as well. They are from just about every part of China, and this topic comes up from time to time, and I have never heard anyone say that cheating isn't common, and almost always they say it is the norm. Maybe not every class, but definitely it happens here and there, and often is quite organized. Not saying you are wrong. Just saying that I'm very skeptical.

My own experience may not be typical:

- my university is ranked one in the province and work with many talented students - most of them would not want to risk promising careers by cheating

- I've never taught first years so I can't comment on that; the ones I teach should know all the tricks :)

- I do generally have classes around 25 and I can space them out for exams; in fact I take extra precautions by shifting them around. I don't let friends sit together and I try to sit boys next to girls. They are only allowed pens in the room - no bags, paper, materials, phones, dictionaries etc.

A final thing - if 'cheating is rife' and I eliminate cheating with my rules, why do they choose my courses? They would be mad to do my course if they can easily cheat in other courses.

Just some thoughts.

> my university is ranked one in the province and work with many talented students

This is just what I expected. High-achieving students basically have no need to cheat in exams. They are not the people who oversee other students' papers, but the people who are overseen in exams. That said, good students also sometimes feel the temptation to cheat. Do you know “重庆状元民族身份造假事件” (Chongqing the highest rank student ethnic-disguise incident) that happened last year in the PRC? That's just the tip of the iceberg. There are a lot of "out of exam rooms" cheating techniques in the PRC.

http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2009-06-27/031518103205.shtml

I don't doubt 'out of exam room' cheating of one sort or another exists - I mention a couple in my post above. There are incentives for this behaviour. But China and the West do have different ideas about what is cheating. Even that word cheating has to be translated. In China it is sometimes 'helping'. :)

P/S. Actually, cheating (and its business) is most "flourishing" in college entrance examinations, which is most important for Chinese people.

Yes! In fact, I could be wrong, but I don't think Chinese typically talk in terms of "right and wrong." That's NOT to say that morality isn't important here. It definitely is! I'm just saying I think morality is spoken in different terms, and of course is quite valid.

so I suppose the first picture is of a garment that is meant to act as a lining for a jacket or something so it can "sandwich" in the cheat notes in the second photo?

...you'd think this is where the 档案 would come into it's own. An implausible jump in academic performance in a short space of time should prompt questions by anyone who cared.

After arriving in China, one of the cultural lessons I learned is that Chinese people do not want to rock the boat unless a situation become quite intolerable.

I guess that Australia would be much like America. If this situation happened in our countries, usually at least one person would complain, and there would be a legitimate investigation. Afterward, the whistle-blower might be perceived as a hero.

In China, people don't like to jeopardize any relationships. They are afraid that if they complain, the authorities will feel embarrassed that such kind of bad behavior has been exposed in their jurisdiction, or worse yet, the authorities might be involved in the crime, and thus they will silently get revenge. It's not just the authorities they would be worried about. If a person points a finger at one person, who knows what powerful friends that one person has. Chinese people are very prone to forming cliques, and so they don't want to become the enemy of a clique. Actually, I don't know if this all makes sense to you, but in a nutshell, Chinese people in general see relationships as being very complicated and so don't want to risk any unforeseen backlash.

This insight comes from many talks I have had with white collar workers. If anyone here would like to dispute this, please do. I would be interested to hear.

Here are some related news articles in English.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-07/02/content_11641001.htm

http://www.bjreview.com.cn/forum/txt/2009-07/27/content_209270.htm

As for Chinese students abroad not being terribly good, I can only speak of a young couple from 福建省 I got to know back in the UK some years ago. The guy (who told me frequently how much he disliked study) was doing a Masters (lol) in Marketing or something, and his industrious girlfriend literally begged me (despite my objections that I knew zip about business and marketing) to go through his dissertation, correcting mistakes and improving his English. I did, (I'm a softie at heart, especially when implored by a pretty girl - lol) but what I did was effectively to rewrite it! The English was so poor and the ideas so lame I couldn't understand how he'd ever even been accepted onto the course!

I just read them. I say let the boy go to Peking University (assuming this was the only cheating he did), and throw the parents in jail.

> collaborative cheating schemes

This reminds me of another episode. The Chinese friend also told me that some of his daughter's classmates held a meeting for "collaborative cheating" the day before national college entrance exam.....over beer, hehe. I don't know if the meeting was fruitful.

我在中国5年了，讲大学英语课程，所以我比较熟悉老师的观点。为了解释为什么中国同事(老师)都会防守作弊的学生我刚想出来了3个原因：

第一是因为记大过是很严重的惩罚，

第二是因为本学生可能会报仇！将来老师要watch his/her back!

第三是因为通报批评还会影响老师的名声

*有没有其它原因?*

抄袭剽窃行为在中国学术界很常见，事情已经到了无药可救的地步了，所以有些大学教师根本就没有资格批评学生作弊。再加上，学生通过作弊而得高分不仅有利于学生，也有利于大学，因为成绩越“好”就业率越高。难怪很多中国大学很善于培养大量“优秀学生”！总之，大学和学生之间存在着一种互惠关系 (mutual back-scratching)。

bad behavior不良记录bu4liang2ji4lu4
cheat on exam考试作弊kao3shi4zuo4bi4
fight打架斗殴da3jia4dou4ou1
theft偷窃tou1qie4

周末过得怎么样？你那儿这次有没有玉树地震捐款活动？看来最近在中国“新闻”太多了。

你的档案里有没有不良记录？哈哈 对了，你朋友之中有入党的人吗？

很久不见！今天带学生们去参加TEM4考试了。西南干旱，玉树地震，我们都有组织募捐。最近天灾人祸不断，我们一定要懂得珍惜现在。

我的档案里应该没有不良记录，学生时代我还算是个merit student。^_^

问你一下，大学英语专业学生几年级的时候才能有资格考TEM 4？ TEM 8 如何？

大学二年级的学生可以参加TEM4考试，大学四年级的学生可以参加TEM8考试。

感谢你的提醒，我的脑子混乱了，呵呵！

Today,I attend the test of C langugage program,but it isn't my major,and I just wanna a certificate for my future jobs.So I learn it on my weekneds day.Through the case,I find that it is unfair in society.most of students pay money for the test,and they send message to copy the answers,which makes me in a low sprit.I konw it is very dirty and insecure to do this.it belongs to the black operations,some people know nothing about it,however they can pass the test smoothly,I know it is a big problem in education system.why the hot of taking certificate spread so crazy in China?It attracts thousands clledge students to attend in every year,just like me,I am not majoy in the computer,but I wanna the certificate.because many companys pay more attenion on the different kinds of certificates.owing to the situation,many orgnazitions provide the services for the students who wanna a certificate not giving much energy .I don't critisize anyone,just wanna to erperss

my inbalanced mood on the test.I believe no pain no gain.From now on,I will be determined to pay more attenion on my major.I need to strongthen myself to adapt to the complicated society.