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simonpettersson

Wicked! Can you teach us some words/expressions? Also, how is the influx of 外地人? And what's the situation on local broadcasting?

zhonge

贵阳话 seems to be something Chinese 外地人 can adjust to pretty quickly... So they generally just do what I do, ie. reply to 贵阳话 in 普通话 and get along fine that way.

Useful expressions?

千翻 (pronounced more or less the same as Mandarin) means fussy or annoying or sometimes clumsy/stupid.

崴wai3 (not sure how it would be written in 汉字) means naff or cheesy

(ka ka) gor gor all in like a flat low tone means a place that's a bit hidden away/ hard to find for example if accessed by an alley and not a proper road

simonpettersson

Interesting. Are there any public expressions of it? Like radio, television, a written form even, perhaps? You say that the 外地人 don't understand it, even after years? It seems the general attitude is that nobody who comes there bothers to learn the local language, is that correct? How much is Mandarin heard on the streets as compared to 溫州話?

bweedin

Usually if someone is yelling out 三轮车, 组出车 or 杨梅五块， 等等 they will usually say it in Mandarin，if they can speak Mandarin. There was this one lady who was selling something and she said 五块 with “五” in Mandarin and "块” in 温州话。It sounded funny.

Other than for such advertising purposes, meetings, school, usually people in their late-twenties and older will speak in 温州话 in most conversations I heard on the street, at the market, on the bus, and wherever。The people in their late teens to mid-twenties will usually mix it up in varying combination of 温州话 and Mandarin. some speak like half and half, and others maybe 20% Mandarin 80% 温州话，it all depends.

This one lady who was 35 got made fun of, because my Mandarin was more standard than her's. She seemed kind of upset, and started to try and defend herself in Mandarin, kind of stuttered a bit, stuck in words in 温州话 and then just laughed at herself.

I will tell you this, though. I DEFINITELY heard way more 温州话 in Wenzhou than I heard 上海话 in 上海, but I think in Guangdong I heard way more Cantonese than I heard 温州话 in Wenzhou. The media probably has a lot to do with it, since in Guangdong even children speak the local dialect, which is not heard from the children in Wenzhou.

There is no kind of media that I know of, except for 温州话 opera. Old people don't even own a TV, because they wouldn't understand any of the Mandarin broadcasts.

The thing is that I met very few 外地人, and I think most have the intention to come to 温州, work and save money, and eventually go back to their hometown, so they don't really care so much to learn the local dialect. In my town where I lived 永嘉，which is a suburb of Wenzhou, I met one 外地人 from 昆明 who was married to a 本地人, and I think she could speak 温州话 。

I think in Wenzhou you speak Mandarin when first meeting someone, and then you speak 温州话 if they can speak it, except maybe in rural areas, and depending on the age of the speaker. In Guangdong, I think most people automatically speak Cantonese when first meeting people, no?

simonpettersson

The kids do speak Cantonese in Foshan, but not to the same extent as the adults, who in turn speak it less than the elderly (who sometimes don't speak it at all). I'd say it's about 50-50 for the kids, 70-30 for the adults and 90-10 for the elderly. Which seems to indicate that the next generation will speak more Mandarin than Cantonese. Cantonese is generally considered the strongest of the fangyans and seeing the decline of it makes me wonder how the others are doing. Shanghainese seems pretty doomed, Shenzhenhua is already pretty much dead. I'm glad Wenzhouhua is holding out, but it seems it's also on the way out. I recently went to buy a DVD in the local store. Looking around, I couldn't find a single DVD with Cantonese audio. This included many many Hong Kong flicks, all of which had had their Cantonese audio stripped and replaced by a Mandarin dub. Of course there were also a lot of Hollywood movies, all of which had both English and Mandarin audio. This was in the big store with the classy, quality pirate DVDs. If I go to the night market, I can definitely find some Cantonese DVDs, but the quality of those discs is abysmal.

Another question: do people in Wenzhou seem to have any pride in their language? Or do they generally think "Mandarin is more useful" and want their kids to speak that?

simonpettersson

There's someone at HTLAL polyglot forums asking about tips/resources on learning Wenzhouhua. Maybe you can give him some info, bweedin? If you don't want to register, you could write something here and I'll pass it on.

bweedin

The only advice I can give him is that he has to go to Wenzhou, and learn from Mandarin to Wenzhouhua, because it will be extremely hard to find someone who can teach it in English. Also, he should have a good bank of Chinese characters under his belt, and learn to read them in Wenzhouhua, because there is no phonetic way to write it. I know some young people in Wenzhou that would love to teach him. Actually, the buses in Wenzhou city have automated announcements of the destinations in both Mandarin and Wenzhouhua. I don't know of any online resources. but as I don't even know how to say “你好” in Wenzhouhua, I'm not the best person to ask.

Well, my friend who is 37 years old speaks Wenzhouhua to his son, but his son answers him back in Mandarin. He doesn't have the whole language prestige thing ingrained in his head, unlike so many Chinese people. His lack of interest in English helped my Mandarin improve lol

I think they just kind of face reality that their kids don't speak the local dialect. Then they make fun of their kids' bad Wenzhouhua. but what happened to my ex-girlfriend who was born in Wenzhou but grew up in Yangzhou, when she tried to speak Wenzhouhua, they answered her in Mandarin.

There is also an interest in learning from people who were born in Wenzhou, but grew up somewhere, and then came back to Wenzhou as adults.

I think some do have pride in their dialect, though. When I told a rickshaw driver where I lived, he said that I said it too standard, that I should say it like . . . and then he said it in Wenzhouhua. One lady used to answer me in Wenzhouhua when telling me the prices, but I never bought more than 3 kuai worth of stuff from her. and when I said 美國 in Wenzhouhua while I was riding a bus, the entire back of the bus jumped back in their chairs. I did not get that kind of a shock when I spoke Cantonese in Guangdong.

I think if I had stayed there longer, I would have made some attempt to learn the local dialect, but I knew I was only gonna be there for 5 months. Plus, Cantonese is my fangyan of choice, as you said it's the strongest one. Since I currently live in the States, it's useful in Chinatown.

I plan to study in Taiwan, but I don't plan on learning 台語. who knows? I might change my mind once I'm there.

and as for your Cantonese learning, 加油 （It's up to you whether you read it the Cantonese, or the Mandarin way!)

simonpettersson

and as for your Cantonese learning, 加油 （It's up to you whether you read it the Cantonese, or the Mandarin way!)

Hehe, I was recently reading a piece about Cantonese. Halfway through the sentence I realized it was written in Cantonese, not Mandarin, and I had to start over. It felt kinda weird.

bweedin

bweedin in reply to bweedin

some things I HAVE to read in Cantonese, like 今日，客家，的士，巴士, and those other weird HK only Chinese words.

Everything else, I pretty much just read it in my head the Mandarin way.

It was interesting, though, because I met my friend's mom who left China 40 years ago and is now in her late 70s. She only speaks a little English, Cantonese, and 台山話, so when I had a gap in communication, I would write it down and she would read it out to me the Cantonese way. It was weird. It reminded me of this youtube video that I saw a long time ago of a student in Hong Kong reading in Chinese, but she read everything the Cantonese way. 對不起 （deoi bat hei) especially stuck out at me.

bweedin

雖然浙江人不會說粵語，但是突然喜歡聽，唱粵語哥。

在浙江粵語哥流行跟香港一樣。