licha to - comments query

I read the comments primarily for Changye's daily logs, personal adventures, and increadibly deep background on Chinese language. And there is nothing better than AuntieSue's over analytical insights into the soul of different types of learners. Of course there are comments that I do not like to read, e.g. disrespectful ones. I effortlessly skip those. lisha, something language-related - just for you and your eagerness to learn: 萝卜青菜，各有所爱.

I would like to add that CPOD does in fact have a series of "introductory" lessons at Newbie level. But so little attention is drawn to them, perhaps because Ken Carroll et al want to focus on the "free-standing lesson" basis of their model. In fact, when I go to "Lessons", and invert the selection so that the earliest lessons appear first, I see that the lessons don't even appear in order. Possibly a side-effect of the messy and painful transition from V2 to V3? Whatever the reason, it's not impressive.

Well put, gentlemen. Licha, we are all here to learn Chinese voluntarily. If you don't like what you see/read on the site, no need to visit; end of issue. However, if you participate in the community, you should know that spirited discussions and even vigorous debate is highly welcome; personal attacks are not. It's not appropriate and I find it offensive. I respectfully ask that you refrain from such posts.

The synergy created by all of our energetic participants is what makes this such a great place to learn and share, and so much better than a typical sterile old classroom. That said, we all make an occasional verbal gaffe or social misstep that is overlooked by the generous and tolerant C-Pod community. It is in that spirit I say welcome to C-Pod Licha.

The synergy created by all of our energetic participants is what makes this such a great place to learn and share, and so much better than a typical sterile old classroom. That said, we all make an occasional verbal gaffe or social misstep that is overlooked by the generous and tolerant C-Pod community. It is in that spirit I say welcome to C-Pod Licha.

Hello licha. I wasn't aware of this thread before, but it puts into perspective for me your post in the "Valentine's" comments. This Auntie is prolix, to be sure. It would seem hard to believe it from where you are, but I am aware of that, and I do try to rein it in when I am made aware of it. However, I'd like to make one observation. On this specific thread, it's not off-topic. After reading your post in the "Valentine's" thread, I took a look at your profile and saw that you have never asked any specific questions relating to the Chinese language before. Not one. So it's hard to tell whether you even need to visit the comments. Far as I can tell, the side-conversations haven't deprived you of a single answer to a question from you. But if you do ever post a substantive question in a current thread, you will find that you won't need to wait very long to get an answer. Why not try.

There doesn't seem to be any user called "AuntieSue" here, but even if there were, my analytical BS would outdo hers every time. :-) Here's some more. When people move from one online community to another, they are moving from one drilled-in culture to another. There are different social expectations, sometimes actual rules that differ, good/bad swap around, and for a long while it's really hard to predict the accepted norms of others. Despite a level of confusion, even discomfort, people don't usually raise it as an issue. I'm grateful to Lisha for bringing an example to the surface, so that we old-timers can be a bit more aware of what all new arrivals are dealing with silently. Often what they say sounds strange or improper to us, but it's perfectly apt in another, equally legitimate, online culture.

Very well said AuntySue. It took me over three months after I began using ChinesePod before I felt comfortable enough to participate in any of the discussions. Initially, I was intimidated by the all-Chinese character comments in the Newbie and Elementary lessons and figured I was so far behind everyone else that this wasn't the place for me. (I don't want to get into the issue of the appropriateness of all-Chinese character posts which I think is being covered by a few other threads). My point is that I didn't feel comfortable participating in the forums (and yes, somewhat frustrated) until I had studied for a few months and found out about a few helpful tricks (e.g. the ChinesePera-kun Firefox plug-in, how to type characters and pinyin). Although I believe it could have been stated a bit more diplomatically, I understand where licha's view comes from. I also understand what the veterans are saying since this does seem like a very close community. I don't think either view is wrong here. Just some understanding and patience is needed by everyone - of course, AuntySue said this a whole lot better :) .

I personally can understand both sides: the side of the Newbie (being one) and the side of the analytical BS contributors. It *is* a bit intimidating surfing the comments at first as a newbie, but I hope at some time in the future I may be able to understand what these people are talking about. It is always better to be around people who know the task/topic at hand better than yourself, as it is the best way (for me) to learn. So how can these two sides be reconciled? Maybe the wonderful web2.0 (hype2.0) allows for an 'ignore' function based on profile preferences and tags so that only comments of certain 'levels' can be displayed. Additionally, certain personal tags would allow for additional grouping of people, based on their interests. As a plus, chinesepod can sell all that stuff to their local cia employee ;-) . No seriously - visibility of comments based on tags would be wonderful, but probably difficult to implement.

There is one social element of learning which is important to me, but impossible to find online. It's talking and collaborating with people on approximately the same learning level, who are experiencing the same learning challenges, maybe working them out together or just chatting about how we approached them. One little place with no advanced students nosing in trying to gift us with supplementary learning opportunities (= drill us) beyond what we're already struggling with in the current lesson and trying to discuss in English. Mix students together everywhere else, that's great, but I want this one specific level-limited lesson-focused safe place, and there's no way I'm going to get it here. Perhaps that's one advantage of the traditional classroom over web 2.0. It doesn't seem to be important to many other students, and it's a very politically incorrect wish which causes long indignant threads of protest from the unaffected advanced students, so I don't mention it these days. Instead, I just open the lesson comments in separate tabs and kill the tab whenever I see people streaming characters or referring to teachers and shared in-jokes from their higher level lessons. There is a minuscule chance that sometimes someone else comes here who shares my oddball expectation and is surprised by what they see. Nah, it couldn't be.

The users' stories are one of the unique features about learning on ChinesePod! They add "real-life" to learning Chinese, as well as real human connections (something you won't find in a textbook).

BS = bullsh*t Isn't part of the problem here generational? Kids are used to expressing themselves in a 918 character SMS text message. Older people like me take our time. I actually write letters!!! Younger people must feel frustrated like I would reading a Victorian diary.

kriskringle, I think we are -- all of us! -- already equipped with an "ignore" function. The one in our brain that allows us to skip past comments that don't interest us... I see my own level, judging by my comfort with the CPOD lesson content, as being sort of "Upper Intermediate, at the point of crossing into Advanced but still apt to be uncomfortably bewildered in Advanced if the lesson happens to be difficult". So I tend to tune out posts which are written all in Chinese characters, unless they are written by somebody that I "know" and (generally) can be counted on to write things that I just know that I will enjoy reading, even if I had to look a few things up in the dictionary in order to do so. The angry tone of licha's posts troubled me enough to go back and examine old comments threads. But to be absolutely, brutally honest, I think that in the Newbie/Elementary levels, all-Chinese posts are actually quite rare -- the exception rather than the norm --, and more often than not, they are accidental. Honestly, I don't see what can, or should, be done about that. Judging by the responses on this thread alone, the thing which actually upsets Newbies the most seems to be: Being "crowded" by Advanced learners. To tell the truth, AuntySue's points about the "space" she would dearly love to have DID resonate with me; AuntySue, it was a surprise for me but I did hear you. I don't know what can be done about that. Personally, I will try harder to rein in my natural tendency to wander off-topic in a long-winded way. In fact, I'm going to do my best to avoid posting in the Newbie/Elementary levels ever again, because I'm not as good at "reining in" my "nosing in" as I liked to think. Previous to this, my personal rule was, simply -- "Only offer an answer if there actually is a specific question that is asking for an answer". I never thought very much about "side-bars", because I figured that everybody would just be able to tune them out if it wasn't meaningful to their level or interests. I do that all the time. Where the Intermediate level (and upwards of that) is concerned, I really can't afford to care what Newbies or Elementary learners think. Because I need to learn. About fourteen months ago, I could barely read Intermediate lessons. All I would say to Newbs/ Elementary students (and everybody is totally free to skip past it) is: Don't have any hang-ups, because CPOD is such a powerful language-learning tool that even three months "hanging in there" with CPOD can give you a totally different outlook. Be patient. Chinese is a difficult language to master; to reach comfortable speaking ability -- or even intelligibility! okay, that was not pc, but it's the truth --, you might have to be prepared to throw everything that you thought you knew about language-learning/ syntax/ grammatical analysis out of the window and just LISTEN until it clicks. Good luck.

dear auntie68, I agree that you can use the brain to tune things out. My suggestion is to use the wonderful world of wiz tech 2.0 to create some kind of sophisticated ignore function (many probably lose me there) to reduce possible overwhelm on the side of the newbie. Also, technically it should be possible to automatically search for comments using Chinese characters and add some pinyin to it. This would enable it for all to add (please do!) their comments to the board, but also give the receiving side the possibility to tune out certain topics, people whatever. But I think you know what I mean. It would also enable the voluntary creation of peer groups (-> AuntySue), that are on the same level and could study together with a certain goal in mind (and be it just chatting about their dogs ;) ) Personally I survived so far, but only understand <1% of the comments in Chinese characters. But I heed the advice of auntie68 and am eagerly waiting for the 'click'.

Auntie68, please don't stop posting in Newbie/Elementary levels. I think it'd be a shame to deprive (the majority of) us of your insights. Personally, I think that "off-topic" comments are important here...this is how people communicate naturally...this can help someone learn a language more quickly. Isn't that why we're here? It's not difficult to skip over comments that you don't want to read...because some people are unwilling to do that, it shouldn't affect your individuality here on CPod.

Everyone should be able to chat in any way about every lesson in an open shared environment. That's what we have. I was talking about something we don't have and can't have here, a safe-house study environment for each lesson. Our lesson comments pages must be regarded as general full group chat, rather than as an integral part of the learning of the lesson. In the particular case of the Newbie level lessons, we know that each lesson will be used by hundreds of people as their first ever try of a Chinese lesson, learning their first four words there by ear only, as well as that lesson being their first CPod trial experience. Given a large interested community and a single chat venue, it's up to each person to decide how to deal with that. As for skipping over what you don't want to read, that's easy, unless it's something that presses your buttons, and then it's impossible. Newbies cannot distinguish between relevant items and more advanced points, and they are covered in sensitive buttons, so it doesn't quite work the same.

kriskringle -- I think I managed to stay with you this time. Thanks. Those filters (including the settings) would be on "recipient" side right? I really meant what I wrote about the "click". Three months is a long time, in CPOD terms; enough time to acquire a totally different outlook. Try revisiting any level-appropriate lessons you've already done, even one month later, and judge for yourself. calkins -- Thanks, too. But when the lightbulb came on in my head, and I finally "got" what the Newbies were trying to say about feeling "crowded", I REALLY "got" it. I don't wish to keep playing into anybody's sensitivities, much less be blamed for it. In any case, any survivor Newbies who feel ready to explore the higher levels will have whatever help they think they want from this Auntie. AuntySue -- "covered in sensitive buttons" ? My immediate response to that is "Tough sheet!". And you want to learn Chinese, of all languages? One thing which didn't make any sense -- whatsoever -- to me was the fantasy that total Newbs should expect to get any sort of meaningful benefit from the Newbie lessons, other than as an incredibly effective supplement to conventional learning (Eg. classroom lessons, or self-study with a good books+CDs course) which does a reasonably good job of covering "the basics" (including hanyu pinyin). No wonder anybody should feel "sensitive" With -- what? -- 523 Newbie lessons online by now, there's probably something there for ANY Newbie to supplement/reinforce ANY lesson anywhere, on any course (designed by any teacher). Based on lesson comments by (then-)Newbies that I've read over time, most of them are delighted to find that it doesn't take long before they are learning more from CPOD than from their "regular" lessons. But to expect to use CPOD as one's sole source of learning at that stage is simply daft. The "stand-alone" format of CPOD's lessons is not designed to do that. CPOD are there to make your regular teacher/ course look bad, and help you to raise the bar in your personal expectations. Good luck, everybody!

I think the way ChinesePod is currently designed may initially frustrate a certain type of learner. This type is the serious learner with no prior foundation in Chinese and perhaps has never studied a foreign language before. The problem with this type of learner is that "they don't know what they don't know". That is, they may not be aware that to get the most out of the site you'll probably need external resources (like classes with a native speaker so they can correct any early pronunciation mistakes). These people also don't know how to effectively use ChinesePod. For example, "what lessons do I start with?", "am I just supposed to memorize the dialog in the podcasts?". Now you can argue that it may not be ChinesePod's job to address this but in any case the problem exists. That's why I was asking for patience from everyone: the veterans need patience in understanding the point of view of these learners and the true newbies need patience in realizing that language learning is a long process. (By the way, I'm not actually advocating anyone change their behavior in the comments section.) I do believe that there are some technical solutions to easing some of this pain such as:

• Providing better guidance to newbies so that can go from "not knowing what they don't know" to "knowing what they don't know". This can be in the form of a wiki or some help pages specifically targeting the newbie while providing some tips and best study practices. In the end, everyone learns differently but I think some initial guidance would help ease the transition.
• Hovering over a person's avatar should pop up their skill level - Newbie, Ele, etc. plus how long they have been registered with the site. Maybe some additional information such as how many comments/posts they have, how many lessons they have "studied". That is, something to give an indication of how experienced they are with ChinesePod as well as the language.
• Have lesson comments be threaded and not a linear list like they are now. This way it is easy to see what comments are replies to other comments which makes it easier to ignore certain comment threads that are deemed irrelevant to the person.

boran, every word you wrote made so much sense to me. Thanks. It could be that CPOD might find it worth their while to reconsider their "our lessons are not in chronological order... you can jump in at any lesson at your level, based simply on your interest"-platform, which is one of their big selling points. At least for the Newbie levels, to avoid disappointment/ misunderstandings. I happen to be an active (and satisfied) user of two other language sites modelled very closely upon the CPOD model -- www.japanesepod101.com and koreanclass101.com. I was not a Newb for the first, but was for the latter. I would say that my experience as a newb in Koreanclass101.com has been really positive, because (although they don't emphasize it, for obvious reasons), their Newbie lessons are in fact progressive, incremental. It's worth noting that by about lesson 3 or 4, total newbs were already having a go at posting in Hangul -- wow!!! --, it's just the culture there, the hosts and moderators can take a lot of credit for encouraging their newbs to try and fly. I would say that learning Hangul -- and not only that, typing it! -- is less of an achievement than learning Chinese characters, but it goes considerably further than learning hanyu pinyin. You try... Even I -- this distracted Auntie -- have found myself typing "hangul" so that I could ask questions. As to Japanesepod101.com, I was not a newb to begin with, but from what I can see, their Newbie lessons don't purport to be free-standing. In fact, the "introductory" lessons are really well conceived, very carefully thought-out. Just something for you to consider... you don't have to agree.

what's BS?