Let's Make the Grammar Guide Wiki Based!
glosoli
December 07, 2008, 03:35 AM posted in General DiscussionToday, while studying for the HSK, I was thinking that a good way to memorize the numerous Chinese grammar rules would be to create a notebook of them. Writing things down always helps me to retain knowledge. While I'm sure such a task would help me get a firmer understanding of Chinese grammar I'm not writing a book on grammar so such a large task seems a little much.
But then it hit me: why doesn't Cpod turn its Grammar guide into a wiki based resource? I mean, no offense to the Cpod team, the guide hasn't done much since it began (which was a slow process to begin with). No doubt you all have a lot on your plate and that's why the grammar guide hasn't progressed that fast. So why not let the Cpod community pick up the slack?
While the Cpod staff would probably have to give some structure to the guide, maybe making pages for items that should be included and such, but the bulk could be written by the community. Grammar explanations and examples would blossom on Cpod if given a chance to grow, which would in turn help make the guide a usable resource for more advanced learners. No doubt if the grammar guide was made more wiki based then its development would be much faster than if it was merely the Cpod staff writing it. While the Cpod site is very user oriented I still feel that there is room to grow with user based content. The grammar guide would be an excellent place to try such ideas.
What do you think?
calkins
December 07, 2008, 12:19 PMI agree that the grammar guide is pretty bare bones in its current state, and there are still glitches with it that haven't been fixed. To me, this is the most important tool that is missing from CPod. We can learn grammar from other sources, but it would be incredibly beneficial to integrate grammar points with the dialogue, vocabulary, and expansion sections, like glosoli mentions, and similar to henning's Grammar Points.
I find the expansion tab to be very useful, because of its many grammar gems...wouldn't it be cool if there were links from those sentences to the grammar guide, explaining or giving more detail about that particular grammar structure? Links from the dialogue and vocabulary would also be helpful.
I think glosoli's idea of linking the grammar guide to QW lessons (and vice versa) is a great one. In reality, QW is the only place on CPod where we can learn grammar (more specifically, where we are taught grammar). We can learn it through dialogues and expansion sentences, but there are no explanations there, same is true with the grammar guide...the user is left on his/her own to guess at the structure.
It'd be nice to see some of the resources (from the new pricing structure) allocated to the completion of the grammar guide. Maybe they already have been, but the grammar guide has been dormant for too long.
I don't think there should be a Wiki for this. I think it's something CPod should put the resources towards. And I also think that there's too much room for error with a Wiki...a native speaker would have to continually fact-check it.
henning
December 07, 2008, 01:06 PMActually the grammar points were originally conceived to help the CPod team interlinking the lessons with the "Grammar Guide". And I still continue to add new material for that very purpose.
Besides, lengthy technical texts with grammar explanations are at best a partial solution. What we really need are fun grammar *drills* that give us confidence and help us inscribe patterns and function words into long-term memory.
When the new paying model was announed, we were promised new and challenging exercises. What we got was video that teaches us more vocab.
Fortunately, you now find really good grammar drill material out there on the web.
glosoli
December 07, 2008, 02:41 PMCalkins is right that the existing Chinese learning 'gems' should be linked to in the grammar guide. The grammar resources as they stand are rather scattered and putting them in the grammar guide would make them much more visible and useful. Qingwen is the addition that should get put in the guide immediately.
I have always thought that the grammar guide's non-progress was due to the fact that the Cpod team was too busy and didn't have enough people. This is why I was suggesting a wiki based idea, even though this has many draw backs.
Henning, the grammar points are great. I do hope the Cpod teams puts them to use as we all wish.
Grammar drills and exercises would be great. However I think that there is a place for simple straightforward explanations of grammar points, which is what I understand was the reason for the grammar guide in the first place.
By the way, John Pasden, these suggestions are in no way a slap in your face. I think we all just want Cpod to be as awesome as we thought it would be.
glosoli
December 07, 2008, 08:27 AMI've been doing some more thinking and looking into the past of the grammar guide. (Cpod blog post & The News and Features announcement)
As was laid out by John in the summer of 2007 the grammar guide is a great idea. Organizing grammar points by words and not structures is a more managable way of doing things. For instance, if you click on 就 you would be able to see all 5 or 6 ways of using this word in a sentence (maybe laying out those different uses by level of Chinese ability). Of course the problem is there is no 就 page, nor pages for hundreds of other important grammar points. What exists now is a bare-bones simplistic collection of pages on different parts of speech with no explanation on individual words and their uses.
What I am suggesting is that the grammar guide starts to flesh out what it already has. For people to understand Chinese grammar it must be laid out in a clear way with lots of examples. Reading through some of the comments people have left on the grammar guide I am not alone in finding the guide in need of something.
So if the grammar guide needs additions and it is too much work for the cpod team, why not bring other people into the fold?
Maybe a wiki based system isn't possible on the site as it stands. But there are other ways. If the guide provides a better outline, for example letting one click on the page for 就 under the adverbs page, then the devoted Cpod listeners could write out examples and various explanations for such words in the form of a comment. Then later such ideas could be brought into the fold.
Another thing. Why are the Qingwen lessons not automatically put into the grammar guide? This seems like the easiest and most glaring addition needed in the guide. This way when a QW lesson is made someone could find the lesson and its grammar points by looking at the grammar guide and not simply searching through the lessons.
Any thoughts?