Pinyin chart questions

robertslattery
December 11, 2008, 09:08 AM posted in General Discussion

<!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:EN-GB;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} -->

Hi, in the pinyin chart tutorial it describes the r sound as like the s in measure, but when you listen to the examples it just sounds like an English r, except with the tongue rolled back against the hard palate.  I met a Chinese guy the other day who used that buzzing sort of pronunciation to say re4 (hot).  Can someone clarify?

 

Also, just wondering why there is no w on the left hand side of the pinyin chart.  I have my suspicions about wang which I always pronounce and hear as wong but the pinyin chart ang examples don’t sound like ong.  Is wong the exception that proves the rule?

Profile picture
virginia_peng
December 11, 2008, 09:20 AM

Wang and wong are different, but we consider that mostly of foreign friends couldn't pronounce it easily, so we change it to wong. In fact, wong is not exist in Chinese.

Profile picture
robertslattery
December 11, 2008, 11:11 PM

Thanks for the reply Virginia.

But wang and tang for example have a different "ang" sound yes?  So is wang an exception to the rule for how to pronounce "ang" and if so, are there any others?

Profile picture
antony73
December 11, 2008, 11:55 PM

Robert, you've been studying this chart hard! However your questions highlight the limitations in pinyin. Simple words like 人 and 上 can never be writen as they are spoken, so rather than analyse every rule and variation in pinyin, I'd suggest you use it only as a guide.

Watch native speakers talk or try watching Chinese movies with heavy dialogue, like 漂亮妈妈. There are some good dictionaries with audio sound like MemChinese and Oxford is ok I suppose.

This video is a good tool for getting some sounds: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qS3IYhkOr-0

Pinyin is essential to study, but it's definatley not the final word.

Profile picture
light487
December 12, 2008, 12:02 AM

Pinyin to me is just a westernised way of representing the Chinese sounds. If my teacher told me that the representative Pinyin K sounds like an English B for example, then that is what it is. Obviously Pinyin attempts to be less confusing that the example I just used but it's no different in practise. Just because the letter looks like one thing, doesn't mean that is it's basis for the Chinese sound it represents.

So once you know enough of the basic sounds, all you can really do is go and practise the sounds with friends and see the results. They will correct you and try to help.. even strangers will.. haha :)

 

Profile picture
calkins
December 12, 2008, 12:06 AM

Good suggestion Anthony.  Here's a great website that combines a pinyin chart with video of a native speaker's mouth speaking it...click on "Video" towards the bottom, then click on the syllable in the chart to hear and watch it spoken.

Also, go to the Finals of Pinyin page and click on any final in the chart.  You can then see that final animated with sound, a step-by-step description, and video.

Pretty cool website.

Profile picture
robertslattery
December 15, 2008, 03:56 AM

Thanks for the replies guys! Ok, I understand now, I didn't realise that pinyin was a sort of incomplete representation of the language. Maybe they should say that in the intro. I am still wondering about the r sound in pinyin though, as I try to describe in my initial post, there seems to be a contradiction in the tutorial here: http://chinesepod.com/resources/pronunciation/section/4 they talk about the s sound in measure but the sample speech doesn't sound like that to me...

Profile picture
robertslattery
December 15, 2008, 06:23 AM

Oh and thanks for the links Calkins, the initials and finals with the animation showing tongue position are brilliant.