Improving the ChinesePod Community Section

Hello, everyone, is there a place where one can lookup the available transcripts?   Currently (as of june 2015)  it seems like the only way to find an old transcript is navigating though the 65 pages of "Transcripts with Tal" group....  one page at a time!   

Well, thank you very much for any feedback.  And also thanks for the poddies who have collaborated to translate all these podcasts!

Cheers,

Quicker response to comments/questions about the language would be nice. Thanks! I hope that isn't asking for too much.

Hey,I just found a site where the lurkers may be hiding out.It's called Plurk and I love the origin of it's name,as explained in wikipedia:

The etymology of the name was explained by the developers as such:^[5]

• abbreviation of 'people' and 'lurk'
• portmanteau of 'play' and 'work'
• acronym of peace, love, unity, respect, and karma
• verb neologism, similar to how Google was eventually used as a verb

...particularly peace,love,unity,respect and karma,great ideals for a commmunity such as ours.

Thanks, querido! We're happy to have you!

And now... you're stuck with me for a whole year. See my nice avatar?

I regret overstating my criticism above; I was having trouble getting started. Snooping around a while more, I see that everything is cool. I see even the wise guys above post some very good thoughts in other threads. The Community here *is* great; thus, my subscription.

Finally, thanks again for the anticipated switch (back?) to threading. I know that whatever you do, there will be unintended consequences. Good luck.

I've tried a full stop, (that's a period!), a plus sign, even an exclamation mark to fill that extra space. No dice! Underscore it had to be!

那倒是! a1pi2, 汉字 would be a nice option too. Crazy that it's not, 是不是？

I always wondered what the _ was all about...

@tal_: I didn't realize that there was a 3 character minimum! That means that even if I were to get my wish--Hanzi usernames--I couldn't use 阿皮 as a CPod username. <sigh>

Or usernames with spaces and capital letters. :)

It would be great I think if ChinesePod could allow usernames that use only 3 characters, then I could drop the _ from mine!

How about a late Xmas present tech team?

Catch-22??

Simon: And once you post in that group you get automatically kicked out because you become part of the evil clique.

I think there should be a Lurker Group. The only people who can post are the ones who never post anything.

The addition of threaded comments is very much needed. In my opinion, it's a no-brainer. Almost done with it!  Look for it Wednesday or Thursday (partly depends on your time zone).

The group issue is a bit more complex, but we're working on several potential solutions to the issue.  We'll be sharing some of our ideas on that soon.

Well Baba, that would make for some very interesting times (plankton attacking whales), but somehow I can't see the big pool ever losing its teeth or growing old.

And besides, we nursery pool dwellers are too comfortable living our easy life of lurxury (sorry I couldn't help myself there) to kick up a fuss.

mickeytoon,

hehe,thanks for starting my day with a good laugh.Gold as usual.But what if this nursery pool clique becomes larger than the shark infested waters,and the sharks grow old and toothless?

querido,
we all do. <nostalgiaMode>And Lantian, and Bazza, and MexicoBob.</nostalgiaMode>

Sigh

Thank you thinkbuddha. Your explanation of the effect of the Community tab, that it acts as a pseudo-clique-generator for the most active posters, is perfect and resolves the theme of the thread, I think. I hope it is mooted by the info from henning.

henning: That's quite a coincidence, and great news. After the switch, I promise to find a good thread in which to continue complaining. :-)

But I'll still miss AuntieSue...

How about a lurker sub-community (a.k.a. clique)? This could function as a nursery pool where timid newcomers would be able to develop their skills before venturing out into the shark infested waters of the wider CPod community :) Then we could have lurker lurkers (not contributing to this group) and maybe foster some lurker envy and competition to see who is the lurkiest lurker.

Just a thought.

The threaded comments feature is announced for this week. It will be interesting to see to which degree that alleviates the issues brought up here. I am confident in that regard.

OK, a quick comment here from an occasional contributor to the boards, and a perpetual lurker...

In general, my sense of how this community works is that it works pretty well - in terms of courtesy, intelligence, humour and seriousness of intent, I think that the Chinesepod community does pretty well. If I don't comment more, it's simply because of the sheer volume of stuff to read as the threads get longer and longer (255 or so posts in this thread, and counting... Hey, I could have finished the rest of Crime and Punishment in the time it's taken!). So whilst it's all often very interesting, and whilst I appreciate many of the contributions by the more active community members, it's really just a matter of having the time to read everything and to give anything like a thoughtful response.

But one thing I wonder is if we could do something different about the way that threads are organised. John's idea of doing more with the groups is a very good one. The groups are really under-used at the moment, but there must be a way of using them more effectively.

Sometimes it feels as if we there is only a handful of 'live' discussions in train at any one time, and they are pretty fast-paced. Given the size of the community, I wonder if there could be a way of of using the groups more creatively to allow a much wider diversity of discussions taking place in parallel, and at different kinds of paces.

Perhaps one issue is that the community tab - by having a single list of discussions, and by promoting recent discussions to the top - tends to narrow the number of topics under active discussion, and also to bring to the attention the more fast-paced ones. And I suspect that most of us here on Chinesepod don't have the time to read everything that everybody writes (what with learning Chinese and all), so perhaps there might be a way putting a framework in place that allows users to find their way to the discussions that interest them, rather than aggregating everything in the same place. Just in terms of sheer numbers, the community might have outgrown the strucutres that we have at present.

Best wishes to all,

Will

This line added. I'll explain why if necessary.

So far, I experience the Community as fragmented into a million pieces. I find it very hard to see the big picture or to navigate within it efficiently, as I could at a forum with a more obvious topical/structural hierarchy. I miss forums.chinesepod.com, for example.

Groups appear to be equivalent to subforums. So where is a one-page overview of the groups? Why is "Most Active Groups" (http://chinesepod.com/community/groups) pinched off at only five items with the arrows to 45 more pages below? When I enter a group, for example http://chinesepod.com/community/groups/view/27 it features this same clumsy blockage.

The word "clique" was used above, along with some disagreement about what it means in this case. So, it isn't necessarily the essential concept here. But I'll tell you what I see so far: the signal to noise is terrible. It's a discourtesy to people looking for organized information; what fraction will wade through the self-indulgent flood above to find the useful bits? A filter, applied to a very few, would help a lot.

I subscribed and I'm happy with CPod's lessons, but so far my Community is elsewhere. You're right that this might make some less inclined to stay.  The Newbie hellotherebrick said above: "I'm new to the CPod community. All I can say is that it can be rather dispiriting when the comments on almost every lesson seem to be dominated by the same handful of regulars." Yes maybe, but my problem is with the unfocused self-indulgence. It converts too many threads into wastes of time, and makes me tend to download the materials and study them "alone". Where is AuntieSue, an inexhaustible fountain of helpful focused on-topic posts? THAT was not a problem.

"Preview post" would be nice.

There are my helpful complaints as a brand-new paying observer. I'm otherwise very happy with CPod.

I suppose this isn't for the community section, but maybe the site overall.  I noticed there are a lot of lesson topic suggestions. If cpod is concerned about who owns the content if a subscriber contributes the script for a lesson, maybe the subscriber could be asked to sign a waiver saying that they're contributing the script freely and other legalese. But i'm sure that a few people would volunteer to write a script for cpod for free, and at the same time, get a lesson on a topic they really want.  

I like reading the community comments section to each lesson that I study. Problems I encounter though are: a) some good questions that are asked remain unanswered; b) some good questions are answered by other users rather than by native speakers or teachers, leaving me to wonder whether I should rely on that answer or not; and c) some nuggets of helpful information are buried in a long thread that takes time to wade through.

So how about 2 weeks or so after the lesson has been published, a CPOD instructor assembles and verifies the most relevant questions, answers and supplementary info that arises from the lesson's community thread and posts it as a "User Q&A" PDF. Available alongside "MP3", "Transcript", "Vocabulary" and "Lessons".

There are some drawbacks I can think of to my own suggestion: a) it would take up time of a CPOD instructor(s); b) users will need to wait up to 2 weeks from the publication of a new lesson for this reliable, consolidated source of supplementary Q&A; and c) questions not asked within the first 2 weeks post-publication date might never get answered, which could be a problem for people whose study method includes exploring the archives for interesting lessons and who come up with new questions not previously addressed.

But I like this because it means that the Community thread to a lesson can flow pretty much unmoderated, as it does today, yet users have the comfort that at some point in the not too distant future the highlights of the thread will be posted to the "User & Q&A" pdf. So you can either read the thread raw in real-time if you enjoy that and have the time, or choose instead to wait for the tidy PDF.

EnglishPod launched it's new website within the last week.I'm presuming the changes there may be pretty much what they're envisioning implementing here,though they say the reason for the changes is for the Chinese users and also I know that the website there was initially going to be changed several months ago before it hit a bug.So the impetus for the changes may be a little different to the reasons here.Still,I'm guessing the threaded posting on the new EPod is pretty much what is planned for here.

ps I should have checked out what's going on at EPod a bit better before posting.Here's what Marco at EPod said when someone asked if the changes there were going to be the same here:

This is a unique project for Epod. THe other sites if they undergo any changes, will be different.

..well that goes to show I was wrong.Still,I think that that's pretty much a first as previously the format of the sites has been the same.

Maybe cpod should have drawing where the names of people that post for the first time are put into a barrel, and the winning user gets as a prize a lesson on a topic of the winning newbie's choice. Or another 6 months added to their subscription.  or ask them to post what they think a corresponding prize should be. 

yeah, I know, that's why I was trying to mention that this is only for the few of us that wanted guidance. 

Maybe this is something related to the community boards: create a section where poddies that want guidance and suggestions can go for it. This is similar to what comes up for lessons based on level (newbie, elementary and so on), but in addition to that area, maybe have a few topics that the few that want more guidance can go.  I'm sure that I'm not the only person that wants guidance in this area.  This is especially interesting since the cpod staff has spent a lot of time trying to make the lessons levels consistent from one lesson to another.  I would think that cpod would have an idea of how long it might take to get through a lesson for the average person.  None of the guidance that cpod has given so far anyway is being taken as from a stone tablet from Mt. Sinai, at least not by me.

Such guidance would have to be really carefully worded, I think. It's very easy for learners to get neurotic about "doing it wrong". If there's a "recommendation" or "guidance", I think the chances of people following them instead of trusting their own judgement is significant. The pace is really dependent on you own experience, your schedule and how much you want to get out of each lesson ("quality" vs. "quantity").

My opinion is that such guidance would likely be detrimental unless tailored to the specific learner (which is what the Guided/Executive plans are for).

(All above is, of course, speculation and opinion, not to be confused with fact.)

This isn't really related to the community, or improving it, but it would be nice if CPOD could offer some advice regarding the speed with which poddies should go through a lesson.  Ken is supposed to be the pedagogical expert, and I assume that strategies of instruction would include some discussion about the rate at which that instruction should occur.  Yes, I know that ChinesePod is all about "mandarin on your terms" but for those of use that want guidance, it would be nice if cpod could give us some.

Well, there are the 'actives' and there are the 'lurkers', and it is fine that way provided every body is happy doing what they're doing. The problem it seems is when 'lurkers' wish to be more active but feel intimidated doing so because of discussion threads in a mode that seems beyond their capability. I think this is where the 'cliquishness' comes in...when a small group of people keeps posting in response to another in that group on a certain topic that does not necessarily help others in the CPOD community. That group then appears to be having some kind of an exclusive conversation that forbids others from joining in.

mickeytoon,

Obviously, I feel deep, deep shame about this

...this line particularly made me laugh..yeah,hilarious alright.But mate I'd say it wasn't obvious at all..you hide it well.If however you were an honest Aussie Christmas Island Red Crab you'd both show your shame with your red colour and at least be more social with other lurkers:

Mickeytoon, hilarious post!  And an excellent point that you subtly bring up...why all the effort to "force" the lurkers out of their shells and into the conversations? 

Aren't most lurkers happiest behind the scenes?  And of course there is nothing wrong with lurking, if you have no time to comment, don't see any value in it, or just don't want to post for whatever reason.  It's okay.

I know there's been a lot of talk about newbies and lurkers feeling uncomfortable joining the conversations here, but c'mon, really?  Regardless of the rare flame war, stupid comment (which I am certainly guilty of on numerous occassions), sock puppet, etc., the conversations here are far tamer than most online forums.  I really don't understand why lurkers (those who want to join in) are afraid to join the conversations.

This is a community, and one big difference I've noticed with this one compared to others online, is that poddies generally stay in this community for a while.  Because of that, you will get to see poddies at their best and their worst.  Everybody has a bad day here and there, everybody goes through ups and downs in life...sometimes that will be reflected in a user's post.  Try not to take it too seriously.  Just try to remember that 99.9% of poddies here are good people...we're here to learn Chinese, make some friends, help others when we can, and be "good citizens" of the community.  We're not here to be exclusive or make anyone feel uncomfortable.  Again, I think everyone here (the frequent posters included) welcomes everyone to join the conversation boards.  If you'd rather lurk, that's cool too.  Freedom of choice is a beautiful thing.

lol;very clever mate. :)

I'm a bit of a lurker. If I'm honest I like to lurk. I'm really sorry! Obviously, I feel deep, deep shame about this, but scuttling around in rocky crevices watching the fish go about their business is what I was born to do. It's in my exoskeleton.

The rising pressure from various sources to overcome my lurkish tendencies and make a comment has reached an unbearable level here. So I've cracked and posted. Here goes:

"I like lurking. I'm happy reading the comments of others and following the discussions but lurking is for me. When I don't want to lurk I'll come out of my shell, but for the time being can I be left alone to lurk (and listen to lessons, do the exercises, slowly learn Chinese...)?

It takes all sorts to make a community. Maybe one day even lurkers will be tolerated...."

I think this points to a need for greater visibility of functionality like ChinesePod User Voice as part of the Cpod website. I'm not sure that any of the comments/suggestions/concerns mentioned in the link were ever addressed, but User Voice, properly enabled, would give us insight into what we've been given over the years.  It might be helpful to have cpod keep a running record of functions/features so that cpod can demonstrate to users daily that it's providing value, and continues doing so.

@Barbs

Ha, good one.  I couldn't see the pic before but now it is there as large as life.  Of course we can't get metacafe Barbs, we are lucky to get China Daily!  (I am beginning to sound a little pissed of about this as I suspect there might be commercial reasons around this 'inconvenience.'  Does the Government have a stake in these vpns I wonder?)   

I'm also wondering if my delight about how fast the Internet goes here compared to Sydney might actually be because I can't get any of the slow sites like Facebook, YouTube, Blogger, Picasa etc.  When all you can do is work in text the Internet is like greased lightning.  

Ah, BTW (another one for the simonpetterson memorial vocabulary tab in the new and updated Community section), I hate to question a master of the craft, but it is Cato who is paid to do the POUNCING.  :-)

Barbs - I am surprised that you are too young for the Goons, or surprised (again) at how old I am.  Specially as we claim Spike Milligan as one of our own.  At least the people of Woy Woy do.   

I just watched the vid. The Goon Show should make your sides split - it's just as inspired as the vid. Some of the early shows were duff, but most of them haven't been beaten since.  I didn't catch it the first time around; I took precautions, you see. They replayed repeats of the show on the radio a few years later in technicolour.

:-)

ah,thanks for that mate.I remember as a kid hearing how funny the goon show used to be and about Spike Milliagan et al ,but it was a little before my time and despite hearing people rave about it over the years ,I've never gotten round to checking it out.Yeah,must do so at last [esp now the net should make it more accessible I hope].Thanks.

I thought the hehe hinted at theatrics but just glad to know it wasn't tinged with an ounce of truth.

I'd hoped the vid link would answer your other questions,but fair enough,comedy is definitely a taste thing.Too bad the laughing gas in the vid can't be pumped out via the net [like smellivision] so we can all have a good laugh about it all funny or not.Still,Dreyfuss still wanted to kill Clouseau while in fits of laughter from the gas so it might not be the perfect antidote for everyone :)

Babar :  that was just a theatrical death. I still got a couple of speeches left in me before I expire.

I like your pic, but can I ask a question ? - Have you been practising on yourself ?  Do you have to buy your own toolkit ? If I was you, mate, I'd chuck the old lump hammer and chisel and treat myself to a nice new pair of pliers.   You don't look much like a dentist; mind you, folk say I don't look much like a dustbinman.

Gritpipe Thynne was a Sellers character in the old Goon Show, and Moriarty was one of Milligan's. Don't know of a link offhand, but if you google Goon Show there'll probably be a few fan-sites out there. CDs of the shows are available. To me the Goon Show was Sellers at his best, but that might just be because that's the first stuff I heard from him.

hellotherebrick,

Hey thanks for the tip mate.If there's something out there funnier than Clouseau I'd love to check it out.I've never heard of Griptight Thynne and Moriarty [forgive my ignorance ] and can't find info on 'em.Got a link mate? :)

ps don't go mate.I hope the world hasn't really been cruel and you're just joking.Also I hope you don't think the CPod community has.All just friendly debate.Sorry if you thought otherwise.

Bababardwan: Which one is you ? Igor or the poof in the white Flasher's Mac ? 

Oops. I think I just joined in.

Griptight Thynne and Moriarty were a scream - one mad dog and his master; but Clouseau only managed to raise a smile.

I'll leave you lot to it now. Goodbye cruel world. HehHeh.

I will check when I get my book back!  The Chinese one also has been given this English counterpart by some translators, but I am not sure if it is the same saying as the Japanese.  

Hi bodawei,

Honestly, I also don't know a Chinese counterpart of the Japanese saying “坊主憎けりゃ袈裟まで憎い” (When you hate a monk, you even dislike his robe). Some dictionaries say its English counterpart is "Love me, love my dog" (which is my chubby dog's favorite saying), but I think it carries a little different connotation/nucance. Sorry, it's off topic.

bodawei,

No worries mate.Actually ,here's one of my better known clients with me [also happy you'll see]:

..hey and sorry about the pouncing mate.I must have mistaken you for Cato.

You can see me in action here mate [really sorry for those in China re youtube] or if you can get metacafe in China [can you?]..the same vid is here:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-7fCo5SkNJHk/peter_sellers_clouseau_dentist_7_7/

@barbs

I didn't mean to out you - or were you outed before I joined ChinesePod?  But I had a sneaking suspicion.  I remember once I was pontificating on something medical that I know little about and ..(pouncing sound) POUNCE! I was blindsided* by you with something that looked alarmingly like FACT (horror of horrors).  

* blindsided = something that ChinesePod staff do to poddies, apparently; .  (Generally attributed to Pretzel, 6 November 2009, but true origin unknown.) To be added to 生词 in the new upcoming version of Community, along with ffs, gtfooh, imo, sockpuppet, lurker, 等等.  

@Changye

'Hate me, hate my dog' - I think that this is an English translation of a CHINESE saying as well, but I cannot put my finger on it at present (I have lent my 'sayings' book.)  Perhaps it is the same saying in Chinese and Japanese?    

ah I see I should have actually checked the link to Lurker John had posted:

In Internet culture, a lurker is a person who reads discussions on a message board, newsgroup, chatroom, file sharing or other interactive system, but rarely or never participates actively. Research indicates that "lurkers make up over 90% of online groups" (Nonnecke & Preece 2000). Lack of trust represents one of the reasons explaining lurking behavior (Ridings, Gefen & Arinze 2006).

Interesting.

I still say I was guilty of lazy thinking. But there's nothing wrong about that term is there. It's just that those of us who reacted to it aren't the most Net-culture savvy of people, that's all.

actually, pizza and beer for lunch would be good for me.....

hey pretzel,

actually, i must confess, i was thinking more about the eating platform than the actuall nutritional value of the cake ;)

long term plans, thats all well and good for those fortunate enough to have been blessed with an ability to see past luchtime. 哎呦！its past luchtime and i didnt even see that coming!

yeah miantiao, I write a lot. Writing a lot invites confusion as well as grammar errors on my part. Let me see if I can wittle this down a bit.....

• Cpod is going to do this balancing act, and John has pretty much said that they want things to be win/win for newbies as well as the non-newbies. I think that a public beta will help the community better understand the tradeoffs cpod is making.
• Please be patient. Another thing with all the suggestions on this thread is that some these great ideas are going to take A LONG TIME TO IMPLEMENT, even if cpod likes them and is going to move ahead with them.  We might not see some of these ideas put into the site for a year or more.

And while chocolate bavarian mudcake with strawberries and cream sounds deliciously decadent, my latest health kick means I eat the cake, OR I have veggies, noodles and rice. Remember, "the body is a temple".....  :)

hey pretzel,

it seems you have a great capacity for concentration, a capability i lack, and as such was unable to get to the bottom of your post, but i get the jist.

polar directions wouldn't be conducive to the community i agree, not unless poddies are equipped with, at no extra charge of course, thermal underpants and a decent well below sub-zero temperature rated sleeping bag. and a chocolate bavarian mudcake with strawberries and cream eating platform.

miantiao, a holiday is as good as a holiday! :)

Fear not, I like a good surprise as much as the next person.  Especially on Christmas! I would just not prefer surprises where i'm paying money to learn an important skill.  But this blindsiding business is somewhat my windmill i'm afraid. I saw a post somewhere that I believe Ken Carroll made that implied cpod had survey data, and the survey results showed newbies love surprises, just as you do. So I suspect the blindsiding business is a non-starter. I just think surprises are a good short term interest, but not in the long term. 

I've made some suggestions, as we've all done, with the thinking that if I put some rationale behind the suggestion, that the suggestion might get accepted better.  I'm not sure this is the case.  we make suggestions, they go into the cpod kitchen, and then we get what we get. There's some,"I didn't order this", or "this isn't what I was expecting", but that's also to be expected with all these people posting and wanting cpod to go, in some cases, polar opposite directions.

Cpod is going to do this balancing act, and John has pretty much said that they want things to be win/win for newbies as well as the non-newbies. I think that non-blindsiding will help the community understand the tradeoffs cpod is making better. cpod now has a base of customers it must now bring along, and is less and less a start up.  I should probably say this of Praxis as a whole.  The beta will make people understand (hopefully) that want they wanted in theory will not work in practice. Or it might allow people to see the value of other suggestions made that they might not have seen otherwise. 

Another thing with all the suggestions on this thread is that some these great ideas are going to take A LONG TIME TO IMPLEMENT, even if cpod likes them and is going to move ahead with them.  We might not see some of these ideas put into the site for a year or more.

Enough of my rambling.

hey pretzel,

while i can understand your frustrations, i kinda like surprises. a change is as good as a holiday?

to build on Paulinurus' comment, it might be helpful to do some sort of public beta test, where either select poddies, or the general poddie public (or only newbies for that matter) can test the new implementations of any ideas for the site.  My impression is that the site gets an upgrade, and we like it or don't, but we don't get a chance to collectively tweak functions.  We just get a surprise. 

I guess that's another suggestion.  Whatever you do, could cpod get out of the habit of blindsiding us with changes? By blindsiding, I mean the site looks one way on one day, and then on another day, it looks slightly or radically different.  I also mean to imply that it's not enough to tell us in an a couple of posts that you're making changes to the site.  Maybe have a portion of the site available to the general community where you list the changes that will be made to the site as of some date (hopefully, thanks to public betas, we would have been partially aware of anyway).

paulinurus,

that sounds fantastic! and less drastic than the fist.

chocolate bavarian mud cake with strawberries and cream, yummo. 

although for some poor sods, pleasure and pain are somewhat indistinguishable.

@john

I hope in your planning of implementing threaded comments, you have included the number of "reads" on a post. Although newbies may not be inclined to post, they could still be logging in to read the community postings. It'll be useful for Cpod mgmt to know what attracts them to the site besides lessons... who knows, might even be the sagas and goings on.  Here is an example of a threaded site (has all the bells and whistles) with number of reads.

zhen,

I could be wrong ,but I don't think "lurker" is considered a slur or have a negative connotation [but someone please correct me if I have got this wrong].After all,I think that's what CPod themselves refers to them as.

While we're being unpleasant to each other on this thread, the input from CPod team and counselors (all the new teachers and ousijia) on the boards is looking great. Already the lesson discussions are better aren't they? Many of our grumbles may dissolve just because the quality of these discussions improves.
Again, thanks CPod for that.

I'm sorry I used the word "lurkers"; that was out of laziness, but that is exactly where name-calling and slurs begin. I should know that. And I never would have, if I hadn't seen a "former lurker" call himself that. Anyway I won't do it again.

hellotherebrick, you conducted a survey! Care to share the figures with us?

☟ baba, I didn't mean that lurker is a slur; I meant that that type of laziness that makes one always want to substitute with a "convenient" label is the same thinking that happens in name-calling and slurs.

I like the saying "On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog"...

Hi hellotherebrick

Looks like you prefer faces/photos of posters to icons. And what next? Real names? There is a Japanese saying, "坊主憎けりゃ袈裟まで憎い", which should be translated as "Hate me, hate my dog" (?) or something like that, hehe.

Hi bababardwan

Gee, that's really a good photo to start my day ........

bodawei,

Mate, that is not just multi-tasking, that is freakish.  You must have the hands of a concert pianist. 

mate,你过奖。Now I feel like I'll have to come clean and fess up that I do also post while on the job as a dentist [I'm no concert pianist mate but the job also requires a little dexterity].But hey,I only occasionally pull the wrong tooth while posting.But each time I've managed to convince my clients that they're smile is actually better for it;a blessing in disguise as it were:

and they love me for it ,so once again I have something to thank CPod for.So from myself and also on behalf of my clients a big Thankyou CPOd :)

Much of the above from the usual clutch of Faceless Ones is exactly why many people whom they label as 'lurkers' are reticent about joining in, and why many people, having tested the waters, decide not to be involved in the 'community'. I hope CPod makes the right decision and pares out the immature elements. But don't stop now, boys, at least it's good for a laugh.

It's maybe a little late in the discussion but I want to add my vore to the threading of postings in the lesson.  This is for two reasons: 1) It's helps with the continuity in one's mind regarding what was the original question and follow-up answers. 2) It takes too long to read through 50+ messages in a lesson espeically if I am not interested in some of the discussion threads. This is espcially true if I need to read the hanzi since this slows me down. 

Also, I think we could do without the short courtesy posts such as "Thanks!".  Again, I'm just thinking of cutting down the time reading posts.

I don't have a problem with frequent posters if there was threading implemented. 

I also would like to be able to have a personal archive of selected postings.  Sometimes I find a posting that is very relavent to me needs but I don't want to go through the trouble of archiving it myself through cutting and pasting in some external document.

miantiao,

"if one gets cuaght eating another's cake as well as one's own, is it not uncommon for the said person who has had their cake eaten to shove another cake down the throat of said glutton?"

对， provided there's another cake or some of old cake left, otherwise a fist would do too！

But i think a cake sleep over is more frequent occurance... have cake fight (soft, sweet cake with lots of cream) with girl friend, smear all over hair and elsewhere, then eat and clean up same time i.e. have cake and eat it too! 

Well, when tempers are running high, people post stuff they don't mean/that can be misinterpreted. No one likes bickering and how incredibly bad does it look on a thead that is partly discussing lurkers?

Perhaps we should think of solutions rather than fret about the problems.

I do apologise if my post seemed unfriendly. It was not meant to be.

I don't think anyone will get anything out of me posting anymore in this thread now, so I'll try to stay away.

go_manly what came over you? That language was totally uncalled for.

Simon it would have been nicer I think if you hadn't.

This thread is making me sad now.

@simon - okiedoke, thanks for your input. Oh well, if that's how you feel, fair enough. I won't be posting in this thread again. I'm sick of it anyway. There's an annoying 'buzz' sound running right through it.

Yes, actually I am an English teacher. (A successful one, my students love me.) I don't include any lessons on internet slang (?) in my curriculum however. Odd that you should think being an English teacher requires special knowledge of that. Odd that you should even say that to me. Obviously I'm not as 'with it' as you. Nice hat by the way, maybe your manners need some work though.

I don't know if anyone else noticed but there's an annoying Buzz-sound all along yesterday's Newbie lesson about "time zones". For a second I thought it was add purposely to get forced feedback from Newbie listerners. ;o)

This sort of Buzz-sound generally appears after a strong compression of an audio file. It already happened few weeks ago in a QingWen lesson.

tal_:

For me, all three of the posts you mention are kind of off-putting. Can't we all just get along?

Also, FFS = For Fuck's Sake, GTFOOH = Get The Fuck Out Of Here. I thought you were an English teacher? Methinks you need to update your vocabulary. :)

@barbs

'Posting from my i-Phone while changing babies nappies' - 

Mate, that is not just multi-tasking, that is freakish.  You must have the hands of a concert pianist.  

PS. Careful you don't get anything on the i-Phone. 

Hmm... sorry to be a bore, but stuff like what sebire? The last but one post I made, Bob's response, or my response to that response?

I wasn't kidding about not understanding the acronyms by the way.

I'll second that.

Perhaps it's stuff like this that puts off Newbies? (And regulars...)

Err... I am afraid I am unaware of the meaning or significance of the acronyms you have used, and really cannot be bothered googling them to find out.

In any case I can assure you I am not raving. And I don't think I'm a lunatic... but then who is the best judge of such a question?

In fact I too am merely stating an opinion, why do you perceive it as 'attack'?

I state an opinion, and get attacked by a raving lunatic. FFS mate GTFOOH.

I don't see what is wrong with a 'barren' board...

What is wrong with leaving lesson-related boards 'clean and pristine'...?

Bob, we all know by now that you personally hate to see anything that is not directly lesson related, that you generally take no pleasure in posts which represent the human element, and will usually pop up in some 'guise' or other to complain. Of one thing I am certain however: whatever changes or improvements CPod makes to the Community Section, there will at times be posts which wander off-topic and fail to be as clean and pristine as your strictly methodical mind would like. I've often wondered why you simply cannot accept that not everyone is like you and try to develop a more tolerant attitude.

Whose 'party' is it anyway? Well... actually it's everyones isn't it? Life's just like that. Messy and imperfect.

If you want a system where the Comment threads of lessons contain nothing that is not strictly relevant to the lesson in some way, and there is no color or feeling of like-minded, friendly humans communicating, then you do not want a "Community Section", you want a strictly moderated and rigidly enforced 'Supplementary Learning Tab', which is there ONLY for the posting of questions, answers to questions, and (I guess) the kinds of posts changye makes which contribute specialised learning from experts. Doubtless such a system would gladden your heart, but there are others here who might find it unappealing.

Go manly, have you ever visited some of the now defunct x-Pods? Their boards were very, very quiet. Wasn't as much fun.

paulinurus,

cheers mate, as i thought, 'have your cake, and eat his/hers too'.

if one gets cuaght eating another's cake as well as one's own, is it not uncommon for the said person who has had their cake eaten to shove another cake down the throat of said glutton? a bit like the kid who has been caught smoking and then forced to smoke until sick?  

go_manly, I think your second question is for CPod to answer.

paulinurus

So, how much of what WAS posted on the Newbie boards was applicable to the lesson AND the level at hand?  I'm asking because I don't see what is wrong with a 'barren' board - does every board need to be a hive of activity to justify its existence?

We have our opportunity for random, non-lesson-related posts in threads like this one. What is wrong with leaving lesson-related boards 'clean and pristine', to be used when authentic lesson related questions/discussion comes along?

miantiao

it's sort of an English Chengyu ..hehe. i'm off to bed.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To have one's cake and eat it too is a popular English idiomatic proverb or figure of speech, sometimes stated as eat one's cake and have it too or simply have one's cake and eat it. It is most often used negatively, meaning an individual consuming, exhausting, taking advantage of or using up a particular thing and, then, after that thing is gone or no longer reasonably available, still attempting to benefit from or use it. It may also indicate having or wanting more than one can handle or deserve, or trying to have two incompatible things. The proverb's meaning is similar to the phrases, "you can't have it both ways" and "you can't have the best of both worlds."

As an example, an individual who is engaged to marry someone but is still dating others romantically would be said to be having one's cake and eating it too.

i've never really understood the english phrase 'have your cake and eat it too'. well, of course if one has a cake one will eat it, what's so strange about that, i've always thought to myself.

now, maybe 'have your cake, and eat his/hers too' appears more direct and less contradictory to having a cake and eating it. perhaps the former implies a very big cake? which only a glutton would attempt to eat by him/herself?

how does one say in chinese 'have your cake and eat it too'

and better still ' a glutton for punishement'   

Well, I looked at the postings in the Newbie discussion boards in the month of October to see if the lurkers are posting since the emergence of the new policy. I would say not. The posting volumes came from familiar names and Cpod staff. The lowest volume is the U-Turn lesson with only 18 posts, out of which only two were unfamiliar names.

In the 4 lessons published in October, I counted less than 10 unfamiliar names. 

So, either the lurkers are still intimidated by the regulars, or they just don't feel the need to post. 

If the regulars didn't post, the October newbie boards would be barren.    

p.s. I did not count posters with less than 1 week membership history.

"Some people also seem to have a lot of time on their hands, judging by the length and frequency of the posts."

...the point being? Who knows what others circumstances are?..maybe retired,sick,unemployed,insomniacs,etc,etc.What of it? For me I'm into multitasking...posting from my iphone while I change babies nappies,clean out roof gutters,wrestle someone to the mat,etc.Ahh,ok tap out.zheyang life can be very efficient. :)

Hellotherebrick,

Were I seriously proposing a cease-post by those few of us dominating of course it would not be for a one-week period. Lurkers will not be attracted to the idea of poking their head into such a tiny window. It would have to be more like a month; however I am not willing to sacrifice my privileges for a month, when I have just two months left in my subscription.

there seems to be too much input from some

Some people also seem to have a lot of time on their hands, judging by the length and frequency of the posts.

there seems to be no lack of enthusiasm for posting

Are you like, picking a fight?  : )  : )

Perhaps CPod could delegate responsible community members with a known level of proficiency in Chinese to handle newbie discussions as 'group mentors' on a voluntary basis

First, something "delegated to responsible people" doesn't sound voluntary to me. The community's mutual helping only works because it's 100 percent voluntary.
Second, if you were to designate certain people to  "handle" the Newbie lessons, off the top of my head I can only think of one, maybe two, poddies who would be "proficient" enough to qualify.
Newbie questions are not all easy. In fact many are not at all easy, requiring a deep understanding of the workings of not only Mandarin but also English, where many poddies will be coming from / thinking in. It really takes a trained teacher, not just a native speaker even, to explain that well and clearly.

Forgive me if I sound a bit peeved--I guess I just liked Paul's way of making what may basically be the same observation a lot better.

John,
The "Team" labels are great.
Also really nice and exciting, to see so many new teachers on the boards.
Thank you for all the good work all of you have been doing.

Paul, what a lucid post.
So who should post?
People who don't mind all the above because they're addicted to the board.
Ha, 说得很有道理！ 

brick,

I'm not sure that stopping posting for a week would necessarily work; a week seems a very short time to give birth to a new situation

..as I hit the sack last night I was thinking along similar lines to this.There would be just so many biases involved that it would be very difficult to interpret.Just to name a couple,firstly if it was done now and suddenly all these new posters appeared it may be easy to jump to the conclusion that it was due to the absence of the regulars and case proved.However just yesterday there appeared a few new staff members that have become active on the boards answering questions,so in fact new posting could be attributable to that.Secondly,a bias acting in the reverse direction could possibly be this.If lurkers really are intimidated,are they really going to come out of their hole during a one week trial period when the microscope is out? Who knows.With so many changes going on at the moment it is not conducive for a very meaningful controlled experimental situation.But whatever.As I've said,if CPod thought it was worthwhile I'm up for it.

I also don't think it would be good for regular contributors to stop posting - like I said, there are lots of interesting and humorous conversations ( and a lot of entertaining paranoia ). It's just that there seems to be too much input from some.

..sounding a bit like having your cake and eating it too.Or is it more that you think some cakes are 难吃[或者是坏了。。out of use by date]？ 呵呵，那是偏执狂.

Zhenlijiang: I just give the impression which I get; I'm showing my agreement, and I'm glad that someone feels the same way. I don't think that the amount of material posted by regulars is THE factor which deters newcomers from joining in, I think that it MAY ( I'm not shouting, honest ! Haha. ) be one of the more important factors involved. I also don't think it would be good for regular contributors to stop posting - like I said, there are lots of interesting and humorous conversations ( and a lot of entertaining paranoia ). It's just that there seems to be too much input from some. Furthermore, I'm not sure that stopping posting for a week would necessarily work; a week seems a very short time to give birth to a new situation. Undoubtedly, the comments sections would appear quite sparse for some time during a period of readjustment, justifying a return to the present status quo. I don't fully understand how things are done here at CPod, so I'm not sure what the solution is, but someone ( above - was it you ? ) seemed to suggest that there be a separate part of CPod devoted to 'off-topic' conversations; maybe this idea could be extended to include the important socialising ( or should that be 'socializing' :-) ) aspect of CPod. Perhaps CPod could delegate responsible community members with a known level of proficiency in Chinese to handle newbie discussions as 'group mentors' on a voluntary basis - there seems to be no lack of enthusiasm for posting, or of willingness to help others, from what I've read in this discussion. Some people also seem to have a lot of time on their hands, judging by the length and frequency of the posts. It was also observed that teaching is a learning opportunity. Very true. I don't think that 'mentoring' would be too intellectually demanding at the newbie level, particularly if the 'burden' was shared by several. To reiterate: I absolutely don't want to see regular contributors disappear, I'd just like the lesson comments sections ( including that at the Intermediate level ) not to be deluged. That's another d-word for you to play with, Tal :-)

paulinurus,

How about an experiment? Frequent posters stop posting for a week

...I would be more than happy to do this if CPod thought it was worthwhile and would give them meaningful feedback [though my guess is it's not something they're looking for..rather just doing their best in the tricky job of trying to improve things for everyone..I could be wrong though regarding their interest in such an experiment..lets wait and see] and they set the date and time [if it were to be done it should be a co-ordinated thing].Having expressed my opinion I'm happy to be guided by them in what's in their best interests and the communities.

Gotta get more pats appreciating your work?

..I doubt this one mate.Firstly they get plenty of the recognition they deserve already [I think I saw mention of Jenny getting another award recently ...congratulations Jenny] and secondly I think their clearly stated objectives of improving the community in response to feedback and in the hope of increasing subscription rates seem to me pretty normal and standard business objectives,and good on 'em for that.Besides,after putting in a good job,who doesn't appreciate a bit of a pat on the back? [Though I do suspect you're kidding around with your opening gambit].

The irony of my posting about not posting is not lost on myself,hehe. :)

hehe...

Cpod wants more newbies to post. Why? Gotta get more pats appreciating your work?

If they are happy quietly studying, they renew. If they are too busy to study the lessons, come renewal time they feel gulity, they renew. No questions asked, more time and money saved. Only one perhaps be bored like Mr. Maytag is Mr Eraser.  

When you post a question, it may or may not be answered by staff. If it's not answered, you get pissed and it stays in your mind for consideration come renewal time.

When you post, people judge whether your pencil is sharp or blunt.

When you post, and someone don't like what you said, you may get an email the likes of the one sent to Calkins.

When you post, someone may challenge you and use the "new policy" (product of management think- tank to bring out the previously hidden bat and put it in full glare to remind people they can be bonked) how your post is relevant to the lesson or helpful in furthering others learning experience. 

When you post, it could be erased.

When you post, they may say they want more diversity. 

So who should post?

People who don't mind all the above because they're addicted to the board.

How about an experiment? Frequent posters stop posting for a week and see if the intimidated ones Cpod is trying to encourage to post will come out of the woodworks. Maybe there are hidden gems of diverse information, insight, and wisdom, afterall.

Changye, of course you're right.
I think what we're really looking at is the limitations of trying to learn/teach a language exclusively via podcasts + website.
At the end of the day you need that human resource, those man-hours.

oops, I've gone off-topic to this thread! Sorry.

Correcting Chinese is the toughest and the most time-consuming job for teachers. I doubt if they have enough manpower for that. As bodawei said, a lot of questions in the forums and more postings in Activity Stream could be a huge burden for Chinesepod.

At the same time, correcting errors in Chinese comments is actually more than we learners can handle. It's relatively easy to know if a Chinese sentence is correct or not when it's actually correct, but it's very difficult to know if it's really wrong or not

........... sorry, not so clear, hehe.

(ah Bodawei, I had my head buried writing this! so this was written without having read your post.)

真对不起，我又来了。I really wanted to share this.

I just had such a valuable lesson from Jiaojie laoshi in the Activity Stream, where I had shared  something personal on a subject that matters deeply to most people. I'd hoped she wouldn't feel bad about correcting my Chinese in those sentences so I was thrilled to find her prompt reply with the corrections (so now I can say this without making the listener feel awkward about my bad Chinese!) and her comment.
I've complained not long ago about lack of response and teacher presence in the AS, and this is really why. It's just so good when they are there helping us. These kind of lessons make a subscription well worth the price. And while you're getting that one-on-one feedback, it's all done where anyone else can look and learn from it as well.
I think it's good that AS is sort of tucked away, not on the main street. I see people there who don't comment much on the discussion boards and sometimes we do share quite personal things there, trying to use our still-learning Chinese. One of the points about AS when it was introduced was to create a place where we could practice writing in Chinese and communicating with it when we might be too timid to "in public". I would like to see more diversity and more faces there as well, but do feel it is serving exactly the purpose it was meant to. I really enjoy practicing and talking about stuff with other users there, and it's nice also because our teachers sometimes share personal things, about their families for instance, that we don't get to hear them share in lesson discussions because they're answering our questions and staying totally on-topic, unlike us.

This brings me to my exchange four days ago with go_manly about whether or not some of us were showing off on the boards. I guess I understand better now, why people can feel that there are show-offs--though I still think that a little showing off is totally acceptable if it happens and wish it were not seen as something that needs to disappear from the boards.
And I see that now, because I remember anew that the AS is a place in which showing off does not take place. It's different in nature from the Conversations section. The climate is different; we're not rude, not offensive, not showing off, not making snide remarks etc--mainly because we're all writing Chinese and nowhere near as good enough to make snide remarks yet! At our level we can only do our best to be polite, considerate and friendly. In AS it's just people trying hard to express themselves. This is true for Intermediate where I am, and I think also Ele. Newbie AS I think is also a great place for Newbie learners to go and practice. Again, many users seen there we do not see in the Conversations section.

Xiaophil had a good point; we need to be using more Chinese, have a place where we don't turn to English all time. I think we do have that in AS. Of course it would be good too, if we were doing that more elsewhere, on the boards. Because banning use of English in even the higher-level lesson discussions would be exclusionary to lower-level students, perhaps a Chinese-only zone could be created (a Group or post even, I guess would be sufficient) for that.

As I've said before, the practice I got in AS gave me confidence to try posting more in Chinese after months of not attempting it at all.

I think more of us, at least in levels from Newbie up through Intermediate, should try using AS more regularly. I think (as CPod did I'm sure, when you guys were introducing it) that would affect the Community environment in a positive way.
I do apologize for this (latest) lengthy post.

PS.  Personally I think CPod should give Newbie questions priority even though I would also like to see mine answered most of the time as well.

@Zhen

I am also in favour of more diversity - that will add to the learning experience and fun.  I'm sure everyone would like to 'see' new faces.   

I am just having trouble imagining how getting a slew of new Newbie posters all asking their questions on the boards is going to be managed.  My problem has always been that these boards are a 'hit and miss' way of getting questions answered/ getting corrected.  My own 'strike rate' for getting an answer to a question is maybe 10% - 15% over the long term. (It hit a peak for me when Pete and Helen the now Counsellor were active on the boards.)  I'd say half the help comes from teachers and half from other poddies.  But that fluctuates enormously through time, particularly the input of teachers.  

I wonder if ChinesePod has a policy of answering Newbie questions before any others, or giving more time to Newbie posters?  That would make sense if there was a reliable way of identifying Newbies!  (Did I notice one day that John identified himself as a Newbie?)   

Perhaps the answer is to create a market to solve this problem - but that has already been done to some extent.  If you pay for 'Guided' or 'Executive' or whatever you presumably get your questions answered!  However, I suspect that even at these levels you get the same problem with rationing resources.  One way to get better results would be introduce pay per service - rather like software support works.  That would definitely undermine the community atmosphere.  I think that if we want the community atmosphere (and I do) we have to accept that communities don't always work as efficiently as we would like.  It's a tragedy you might say.  :-(  

As for having my Chinese expression corrected, this has been an exceedingly rare occurrence for me, even though almost everything I post could be improved.  There are plenty of reasons why it is difficult to use community boards for correcting Chinese expression.  Most poddies probably do not feel confident enough to correct another poddie.  (I certainly don't.)  For those who do have the expertise it is a big investment in time to do the correction - and then by the time you have done it someone else may have also posted a correction.   I realise that the Activity Stream was designed for this purpose but in my experience it was not seriously supported. (Perhaps there was also fluctuating support there and I caught the downswing.  I was a late adapter.)  In theory the Activity Stream is absolutely the best was to proceed for corrections but if you don't get a response then you lose interest.  

hellotherebrick, so what do you suggest we do about that?
That those of us dominating cease commenting for a while and see what happens (like I suggested, way up there)? A couple of days, a week? I'm not offended, nor annoyed at your comments. This is such a long thread and I just want to say that the thoughts you expressed (except the photos for our avatars part) I pretty much said way back up in my first comment, and have said this repeatedly. Without doubt, there is lack of diversity on the boards, and there also has been significant loss of diversity during my ten months here (hence my constant questioning--is it me?).

People have stopped regular posting here I'm sure for various reasons. We all have our lives after all. I suppose some did not renew their subscriptions. The question is not why some people have stopped posting, but why so few new people, or other people, are coming. If the reason is, as you say, that the discussions are dominated by a handful of us and that is putting off people who may otherwise comment, then I would be happy to not comment for a week and see if things get better (even though I shouldn't have to do that. after all I'm also a paying service user). Anyway I'm all for more diversity (than now anyway. Bodawei your point is also well taken), for seeing more faces and hearing new voices here.

If that wasn't what you had in mind, then please let us know what you are suggesting we do.

Well that's it, I frickin' give up. I'm dun' dominatin'. Oh, I mean that in the nicest possible way.

I'm new to the CPod community. All I can say is that it can be rather dispiriting when the comments on almost every lesson seem to be dominated by the same handful of regulars. Don't take this the wrong way - it's not meant to be invective, or any sort of personal attack. It may be that the domination of the comments by the few puts off many others who might otherwise contribute. There are often enlightening points made, and there is a lot of humour, but it would be nice to see a lot of different faces amongst the comments. It would also be nice to see photos of those making contributions, rather than icons, so that we can better relate to those we are talking to.

Again, I mean all this in the nicest possible way. Thanks for your consideration.

Great ideas so far. I'd really like to see some sort of "search box/function" for past conversations. I know there's a search box for lessons etc which I find really useful, but searching past conversations I think would help cover minor/precise things that aren't covered in lessons. I've found myself searching for sentence order/small grammar points but unable to find the relevant info in a lesson, I've ended up starting a conversation on something which, no doubt, has been covered before in a conversation. Something like this I think would be very helpful and save a lot of time ^.^

I also really like the idea of improved testing, specifically testing the different areas and "skill sets" ^.^ 

@changye, on most sites threaded comments still all appear on a page.  However, if after the first few comments, you see that it isn't something you're interested in (too many hanzi, to much 胡说, think Calkins is an asshole, etc.), you just clique the scroll bar.  Sometimes there is an option to collapse, other times not.  Personally, I like the non-collapsible threads, since sometimes a thread steers back into interesting territory.

Also, it solves the problem of responding to and/or commenting on a user comment five screens up.  For example, here's a comment section from the Wall Street Journal community forum.

I wish we could all just get a long, even if only sometimes. Remember we are trying to come up with useful and valid ways to improve upon the community in this thread.

Some excellent points have been brought up so far - please let's try to continue that.

I thought I'd share an email I received from one of cpod's newest members.  I won't share this lovely lady's (yes, lady) username, but I guess this is what I get for sharing my thoughts in the community.  Sorry for ruffling your feathers Miss X...I'll try to be more sensitive in the future!  BTW, this is exactly the kind of poddie I hope is not attracted to cpod. 

Oh one other thing...take a deep breath before reading, she didn't use any periods...but there are some commas, exclamation and question marks so it's fairly readable ;)

just wanted to tell you that I disagree with your comment 100% about providing pinyin in the newbie/ele lessons and feel that being a "newbie" I'd prefer pinyin/hanzi  shown in newbie and elem lessons and your comment saying that you dont agree with Cpod is stupid, BTW I am also very positive that many others feel the same way about it as I do and if its not provided this will certainly deter newbies from participating in the discussions if they cant understand them

if you dont want to see it, then skip those lessons, besides you arent a newbie anyway as you said, you have been learning chinese for a few years and dont know why you want to do newbie lessons if you are beyond that level

its hard for me when trying to learn a new language, in my attempt to follow along with the comments made in the lessons, if they are in Chinese and I cant read them since I am new at this of course that will discourage me, and yes I agree we need to help ourselves as much as possible too when learning a language but for you to say that you dont agree with Cpod's policy to provide pinyin with the hanzi I think is just absolutely ridiculous and its a good thing its not left up to you!!! It seems to me that once someone has learned the language beyond the beginner stage they develop an ego that implies they are above other people's ability and by making these claims, it proves nothing more than a show off attitude, it appears you have developed that type of ego, maybe you should think back how it was when you first started learning and try and put yourself in their place, "think you can do that "Mr I dont need any help"???"

Just my opinion: but you really are an arrogant asshole

bodawei,

I'm talking implication here.I don't want to get into the true differences in the professions.Think Croc Dundee mate [you remember the scene where he's in new york?].

ps hehe,you better let the trouble and strife outta the sin bin mate or that could be a matter for dr phil. :)

barbs

Ah, my education continues!  I did actually refer to the trouble and strife as the resident expert on TV shows and she said that the man is an MD (albeit one made famous by said Oprah.)  Well she can just go to the sin bin for a spell; exposing me like that amounts to a professional foul.  Maybe she is out of touch here in China, a Dr Phil free zone.  

I do recognise a stereotypical difference in the Australian jurisdiction (the psychiatrist as a dispenser of patent medicines and the psychologist who sits there for fifty minutes waiting for you to talk?)  Fortunately both stereotypes are under serious challenge.  In the United States I could only hazard a guess at the difference - it seems that both types frequently get on TV.       

bodawei,

Actually mate,as Paul correctly pointed out ,Dr Phil is a retired psychologist [subsequently considered entertainer] which as you'll see from the link became famous going on tv shows like Oprah.I'm not trying to split hairs.There's an important difference in implication.

John, Matt

Comments along the lines of 'we want more Newbies/poddies to post' (I hope I'm not mis-quoting) make me feel a little uncomfortable.  Reminds me of the Tragedy of the Commons, or Tragedy of the Community Boards' in this case.  Too many people using a 'free' resource can ultimately eat itself.  

I think that the Chinese-learning objective might be: create the best possible environment for Newbies to get their questions answered.  I know that when I started I felt unhappy when I didn't get an answer to a query.  Then I grew a hard shell and accepted the fact that you don't always get an answer.  But ideally, users should feel that the ChinesePod community will offer support in some shape or form.   

This is not the same thing as maximising the number of poddies posting.  

Paul

Thanks for bringing me up to speed on your jargon.  I assume that a 'Dr Phil matter' means one requiring the attention of a psychiatrist, rather than one that needs to be aired on a Jerry Springer-type talk show?  'imo' - I think that some acronyms can alienate an audience - it is cliquey by definition.  But many will disagree with me; I'm sounding like an old fogey. 'Sockpuppet' - that IS i-n-t-e-r-e-s-ting. I've been around the Internet since newsgroups and I don't think that I have come across that meaning before. 

Hi John

Thanks a lot for the links.

So, with threaded comments, all the comments posted appear in one page (even if they are only parts of comments, such as titles and posters' names), and you can glance over them without clicking. Am I right?

John,

I was wondering the same thing too,so thanks for the links.Though I've checked them out I'd have to see them in action to really appreciate how they work.Giving others the ability to block your comments is great.But in the first link I note that others can vote that your post is bad and I take it you can then get an overall negative rating.With talk of newbies being intimidated,isn't this going to just further that intimidation? We're all in the same boat here.

Changye,

Threaded comments look like this or this.  One of the nice things about threaded comments is that you can abbreviate or hide/collapse the threads that get too long and out of control. (I believe we usually refer to those as the "off-topic tangents" that you love so much... :) )

simonpettersson

糟糕！I think I even noticed that before and used it maybe once before I resumed scrolling back to the top each time. Oh, well, nothing like public humiliation to make the point stick in your memory!

Thanks for telling me. :-)

orangina:

...

There is a Me/Lessons/Community/Resources bar at the bottom of the page. What's more, it's extra efficient, since it's one click to get to wherever you want (like Vocabulary) instead of two. I often use that one instead of the top one.

Oh! One thing I would like is a Me/Lessons/Community/Resources bar at the bottom of the page too, so that I don't have to scroll to the top when I am done with a particular conversation. It is a small thing, but since you are asking...

What do you mean by "threaded comments"?

@paulinurus:

Seems to me most of the complaints about the Community Section John listed on his blog will be resolved after Cpod has implemented the staff recognization capability, the user reputation system, and the threaded comments.

Agreed. Those are very likely going to be big parts of the plan.

In addition, the idea most recently brought up by Zhenlijiang of the Q&A zone/comment-marking is a good one, and I think it could go a long way toward helping Newbies get the guidance they need, and to help ChinesePod staff respond more quickly.

@xiaophil: Don't worry; I'm good at skimming. :)

I don't post because I'm busy learning Chinese as well as keeping up with the rest of my life!

I think this is very true.

discouraged instead of encouraged new people to post since now they have to jump another hurdle before posting - figure out whether the post will be "related" or "helpful"

Don't worry. Who finds such an unnoticeable warning?

@zhenlijiang Oh yeah, my eyes failed me. :)

Matt I clearly said "for most of us who do do it".

You want to get more people involved, I've repeatedly said I have no trouble understanding that. There must be all kinds of reasons why people do not post, but Lanqing for one has just given you valuable feedback. There's not much to be done on your end or ours about individual users' simply having no time to post is there?

@zhenlijiang By 'saying most of us' I think you are still referring to those users who actually comment - and that is in fact only a small percentage of the total number of paying subscribers. Thus in actual fact, 'most' Poddies don't post...for now...but we hope to improve on this.

A number of different ways to deal with the irrelevant content problem were brainstormed - and some were implemented. Obviously the deletion of irrelevant content caused a negative reaction among some people, but we did receive a lot of feedback through other channels from Newbies saying how it was a little easier to find the relevant info since that policy implementation.

There is always more than one way to skin a cat.

We  will continue to strive to make relevant content more easily accessible.

That's feedback for CPod and the point of much of this thread, thanks for coming forth with that Lanqing.  Need more of that!

Posting (= trying to communicate with fellow learners and teachers), whether it's asking questions or trying to answer them, or trying to say something in Chinese, is an important part of the learning Chinese for most of us who do do it.

I do hope you didn't read a tone (impatient?) in my remark that wasn't there. I suppose I should have phrased that "I don't know what the reasons are" which is all I meant.

Zhenlijiang, you say that you don't understand why some people never post.  I don't post because I'm busy learning Chinese as well as keeping up with the rest of my life!

Haha, John will have to take the day off to read all of these.

Paulinurus,

Agreed regarding the extra hurdle due to the comments policy. Preventing new users from jumping in until they can come up with an intelligent question regarding the lesson content, that will somehow further the learning experience of everyone is a bit much to ask. Also hurting newbies is the fact that they aren't at a level to jump in and respond to anyone else's questions.

The next newbie lesson, why not just ask new users at the top of the comments section why they are learning Chinese or if they have ever been to China, or ever been in a situation similar to the lesson dialogue. After that first post who knows what will happen. No need to restrict comments to the trivial points of the lesson content.

Here's a policy for the policy makers. No new policies.

tvan,

hehe,I can't tell you how happy I am to read your post,but I feel a bit dodgy now for the main reason for my happiness after you've just been so kind.You see,above I tried to draw you into a fourth post with my question:

What the heck are the "Cabal-wannabes" mate?

...which I already had the answer to,but you were too smart to reply.And even as I write I realise you are still too smart 'cos the yardstick you were self imposing wasn't really 4,but rather ..those who've posted more than John,and I see you're still on top of the situation.Zaogao !! I'll have to get up pretty early in the morning if I'm to have a shot there,hehe. Cheers mate :)

nope,never been anyone else btw

Seems to me most of the complaints about the Community Section John listed on his blog will be resolved after Cpod has implemented the staff recognization capability, the user reputation system, and the threaded comments. 

Threaded postings system is most needed to deal with the so-called clique problem. When the posts are threaded, you'll see only one posting by a clique member which you can easily ignore and avoid being pestered by all the other clique responses so much so that you feel discouraged to post. Likewise, when you make your own group of friends which others may view as a clique, they too can just skip one post and be unbothered and be motivated to post.  

As for the environment not being conducive or comfortable enough for the less than bold people to feel OK to post, wasn't that the purpose of the new deletion policy introduced a few months ago?

"We also reserve the right to delete comments in the ChinesePod lessons section that we deem to be either unrelated to the respective lessons' learning content or unhelpful in furthering our users' learning experiences."

The notion was that if postings unrelated to the lesson at hand were deleted, then many new people will post.

So far, I have not seen this happening. Maybe the effect of this policy has been the opposite i.e. discouraged instead of encouraged new people to post since now they have to jump another hurdle before posting - figure out whether the post will be "related" or "helpful" or "further others learning experiences"?    

Bodawei,

imo = in my opinion

Dr. Phil - reknown psychologist practicing cognitive therapy

sock puppet - existing member using a new name during the 1-week trial period to complain about other poddies.     

Tvan, imo (Bodawei--"in my opinion") you're an example of those community members who are particularly valuable and appreciated because you don't deliver copious posts or show up everywhere, yet have more impact and a way of making a lot more sense than a 99-screen thinking-aloud post. Ah this does not mean your input would devaluate  or be less welcome if you did show up more often.

It's nice of you to say that, but no one owes me any thanks here. What I really appreciate is people here being patient with my glaring inability to be brief.
I am working now on improving my contribution-to-post ratio (a problem as it currently stands).

I am by no means an emeritus member but, of the frequent posters above, I do remember the not-so-distant days when zhenlijiang, babababardwan, tal, bodawei, pretzellogic, miantiao, and orangina were newbies, at least in the sense of being new to the forum.  (I;m assuming they didn't used to be somebody else.)  As they joined, some formerly frequent posters (e.g. Bazza) moved on, and they filled the void.  I think CPod owes them all a big thanks.  (sniff!)

On a suggestion for forum improvements, let me throw one out there.  I would much rather read a bunch of babardwan's 胡说 or a 99-screen-post by zhenlijiang :-) or even look at Tal's 1,001 emoticons, than read a bunch of comments that begin, "The sound doesn't work," "My PDF is empty," etc.  All legitimate complaints, but the type of things that are better handled via PM.  It reduces board clutter and has the added benefit of giving the chronic bitcher/sock puppet(s) less material to work with.

Oh yeah, @zhenlijiang, thank you for your kind words.  Is there an award for opinionated, renecked, sinophile?

sebire,

A good example of a couple of things.Firstly,it was a very good question,and for mine asking the subtle differences between two very similar expressions requires a much deeper understanding of the language than just having an idea of what the expressions mean on their own [even when the expressions are quite simple in their own right].I don't know how many Advanced learners we have on the site but I presume the numbers go down with the levels and they're not that high.Secondly,it did call to mind a lesson I listened to about a year ago that may have given some insights.I remember Ken and Jenny discussing how positive or negative expressions like 不错 and 马马虎虎 were.I tried the search function using mamahuhu and 马马虎虎 but no luck.I also went through all my studied newbie and ellie lessons but it wasn't there [maybe I'd just listened to it and not got around to studying it].I then flicked through the 100 lessons per page ellie and newbie but couldn't spot it and also tried under the tags etiquette and greetings.The latter has probably shown the lesson but I can't spot it and now I've given up 'cos I've gotta choof off.But hey,I know these things are being addressed.But just highlighting for mine what the problem was here.

ps Do you remember there was a user called haikeyi? Maybe he could have shed some light if he was still around.

I just wanted to add that my choice of words was a little imprecise. I'm pretty familiar with most of the posters in this thread and I know you are all good people and nobody literally took offense at John's post.

jckeith, I hope I was not interpreted as having taken offense at John's post because I had not. I had questions about "a cliquey feel" so asked them to be clear--not doubts, not scepticism.

but I can tell you the concerns are very real; you just don't see them.
Again, I did not doubt. You can see I said I had only seen sock puppet types use the word clique on the boards, therefore I assumed genuine feedback conveying such a feeling was going to CPod privately.
Just making clear!

As for
And these sorts of posts come up fairly often. I remember a while back some of the more active users were making the case that their opinions were more important than those of newbie and ele users and less active users.
I too wish you could find that thread, esp if it's kind of a recurring thing, because what you describe strikes me as pretty lousy behavior.
I hope I wasn't making the case that my opinion is more important than someone else's but if I was, I'd like to see just what I was doing/thinking. It's better I think to have a specific case to look at for examples of what maybe die-hards, or regulars, think nothing of while other people are being put off (or, the die-hard regulars will see and totally agree that it's off-putting).

Remember, CPod is not just for the die-hard learners, and our money is just as good as yours. They'd be remiss not to listen to our feedback.
Of course. Hence this (ongoing) effort to glean feedback from people who aren't as forthcoming with it.

__________________________

In the interest of having people's questions answered more consistently and sooner, I wouldn't mind for instance, if the current lesson discussions were re-positioned as a strictly lesson / Chinese language Q & A zone. And we would conduct all other chatting and discussions elsewhere in the Community (make our own posts instead of commenting in the such Q&A zone).
In a way this seems better to me than a "free" (lesson-focused) discussion in which we have to worry about being off-putting or intimidating.
The drawback with that would be loss of input from people who just have something interesting and worth hearing to say; if they couldn't share there it would be everybody's loss.
I suppose the "rule" could be that you can also share something, as long as you're either asking or answering a question in the same comment (this does seem silly though).

If Newbies are to feel welcome and encouraged to participate in the Community of course their questions need to be priority.
The idea of a flag, or otherwise very visible mark on question posts seems like the best solution.
The suggestion Baba had for peer responses to poddies' questions to be "authenticated" if also implemented would encourage the mutual helping and communication aspect that the Community thrives on.

The weekend stuff getting buried is another issue. I had said before to a staff member I thought the boards needed more tending to on Saturdays and Sundays. I know that will cost. I know people working hard M-F deserve time off on weekends. At the same time a website is open 24/7. I don't know, I don't think you can really keep bank-type hours when you have customers coming in throughout the weekends.

John, sorry it's me again. I know you (we all) wanted to hear from other people.

Well, can someone please help out this Newbie?

http://chinesepod.com/lessons/how-have-you-been

He asked a question 2 days ago, which I could not possibly comment on with any authority. This is the sort of thing that is the problem - his question was pushed back three pages as he posted on a Saturday. I was observing out of curiosity.

I have not read everything in the thread, but one particular comment made by Calkins about the active group grabbed my attention.

I do not want to argue whether this is true or not, but I think that a "clique" or as I prefer to think a small group of Cpodphiles or enthusiasts, is very valuable. To me it seems that sometimes the focus is on "change"  and what "can be" or "should be?" in stead of what already is there.

Personally, I do not see how these "ambassadors" could be detrimental to newcomers: I only see positive opportunities! Here we go: for instance, you could assign "the more active users", that know the way around the site, to a newbie as a sort of "buddy". In stead of having employees putting their scarce and valuable time (which could be used for instance on "the lesson search" *wink wink*, just kidding :-P) "regulars" could "volunteer" to help out newcomers (which I believe is already the case often). In stead of posting in public (scary), "they" could ask their "buddy" (nice).

So if you ask me how to improve the community section is by nurturing the wonderful group of users you have wheter active or not and of course actively involving new comers. So why not combine those two? 1+1=3. I am sure there must be a nice chengyu for that :-)

I guess that means that cpod is developing a plan/policy to acknowledge and encourage lurkers once they actually start posting.

This thread has grown so quickly, but it's definitely full of very useful, revealing info. I'm reading every single comments and plucking out the suggestions. We'll be discussing a bit more internally, and then we'll let you all know when we come to some conclusions (but before we make any major changes).

In the meantime, if you have any other ideas, the thread is still open...  I'd especially like to hear from more voices out there. (Lurkers, that means you all! :] )

We do need a terminology section for newbies and others like me who have not kept up with the jargon - 

Paul - what on earth is: 

'imo'? 

The 'Dr Phil matter'?

'sockpuppet'?   

Could you please post a 生词 shēngcí (list of new words) with your posts?   

Wow, thank you very much! 你太过奖了！

jckeith, you rock and are awesome. I agree with everything you said and you say it much better than me.

...I missed that.Jeepers,I'd hate it if that was the impression I left as nothing can be further from the truth.

I wish I could find that thread again. I will say that nobody was being intentionally insulting and that the intentions seemed pure though. It just came across as kind of tone-deaf.

I agree that CPod should do their utmost to address all concerns.The one thing I take issue with is that by being a frequent poster means you are being exclusionary.

I absolutely agree. I hope my post didn't come across that way because I certainly wasn't implying that.

jkeith,

somewhat akin to trying to drink from a firehose

..good analogy mate.I like it.I agree that all should be done to help newbies.I think more resourcefulness can come a little later when the time is right.Like anything the hardest part is starting.

sneering..

I remember a while back some of the more active users were making the case that their opinions were more important than those of newbie and ele users and less active users.

...I missed that.Jeepers,I'd hate it if that was the impression I left as nothing can be further from the truth.

Remember, CPod is not just for the die-hard learners, and our money is just as good as yours. They'd be remiss not to listen to our feedback.

Completely agree.

Many of you seemed sceptical (and some even took offense) of John's post, but I can tell you the concerns are very real; you just don't see them.

I agree that CPod should do their utmost to address all concerns.The one thing I take issue with is that by being a frequent poster means you are being exclusionary.I refute that [it feels like scapegoating],and think CPod need to be clearer in the message they are sending.But,if in the final analysis that is the way it is going to be viewed than I am more than happy to comply.I am more than happy to do my best to do whatever they direct as I have utmost respect for CPod and want to support whatever they deem is in their best interests.Finally,I think John was highly professional in his blog and posts as always and he is just putting the feelers out there.I have not been offended by his posts but as they have asked for feedback I think some things are worth debating.I have tremendous respect for John both as teacher and in his role in CPod.

I think paulinrus's post serves as a great example of what the original post was discussing. As one of the more casual users, I found the tone of that post to be somewhat off-putting. And these sorts of posts come up fairly often. I remember a while back some of the more active users were making the case that their opinions were more important than those of newbie and ele users and less active users.

These sorts of posts are exactly where the "clique" feeling comes from. Everytime CPod puts a post up asking for feedback, some of the more hardcore users will disparage the concerns of the less intrepid among us and any effort to address those concerns. Remember, CPod is not just for the die-hard learners, and our money is just as good as yours. They'd be remiss not to listen to our feedback.

Many of you seemed sceptical (and some even took offense) of John's post, but I can tell you the concerns are very real; you just don't see them.

By the way, paulinrus and everyone else, please don't interpret my post as a personal attack. I'm merely trying to provide some clarification.

Pinyin may be a crutch, but it is a very necessary one when you are first starting out. Walls of 汉字 are very intimidating when the only ones you know are 一 through 十, and trying to make sense of them at the newbie level is somewhat akin to trying to drink from a firehose. I think the comment policy is very sensible; it's not "pampering" anymore than beginning riding a bike with training wheels is "pampering." The more intrepid newbies are free to check out higher level lessons and comment sections without sneering at the others.

paulinurus,

lol:

It is a Dr. Phil's matter as to why people do not post rather than...

..thanks for a good laugh mate.

I agree with virtually all you've said there.I do however,understand why they want to improve the community section if they are responding to a significant number of genuine complaints.I can't help but wonder though how deeply they've looked into the cause of this discomfiture.I can't help but feel that's it's being wrongly attributed or unfairly attributed.The only thing on these boards that I've seen offputting,as you quite rightly point out,is the sockpuppet types.CPod policy below talks of reserving the right to reject personal attacks,etc but implementation is another thing.If I were a nervous Nellie I might find that offputting whether I was the subject of the attack or seeing others attacked.I think that should be looked into.But other that tweaking a few things,making some improvements ,I would tend to stick to the old wisdom of "if it aint broke,don't fix it"

orangina,

If I wanted a dry, traditional learning environment, I would not be here

..exactly.You are highlighting one of CPod's great strengths.Let's keep it fun guys. :)

Well, I do agree that people feeling intimidated is not really about regular users making the environment unwelcoming. In fact, seeing the "regulars" helped me to feel comforable and just jump in... of course I know that is my experience and other people's feelings are just as valid. I also agree that the community section is not an integral part of the lesson. As a Basic user who will upgrade to Premium the second I have the money to do so, I do use the community section to help me learn more. But I view it as talking among teachers (who may have something else they have to go do) and fellow students in the quad, not personal tutoring time. If the conversation doesn't keep strictly to the lesson on hand, well, that is part of the fun. If I wanted a dry, traditional learning environment, I would not be here. And it was a blessing to have Pete who so enjoyed hanging out with us kids, but different isn't bad. I think the only thing about the comminity board I would like to see improved is a better way to search for past comments. And it sounds like cPod is working on that, so I suppose I really have nothing new to say!

yeah, and look what happened to Dr Phil. what did happen to Dr phil anyway? 

Hi xiaophil

I'm an advocate of "free speech" and a lover of off-topic posts. I just can't resist going off on a tangent or entering irrelevant discussions. However, on second thought, it won't hurt me much to play "a stoic guy" at least in newbee forums. After all, I still have a lot of other lessen threads and discussions where I can "freely" post comments, hehe.

Frankly I don't understand why again there is this Cpod priority mission to improve the community section. A community board is a community board and there is no effective way to make it so safe that people will feel less intimidated to post. It is a Dr. Phil's matter as to why people do not post rather than a matter of the board environment not being conducive enough.

Also, the notion that should the discussion boards be used strictly for lesson content, there will be more new subscriptions or subscription renewals do not hold water imo. There are already volumes of learning contents in the Cpod lessons themselves, do people really look for more learning content in the community's postings? Have they completely studied the lessons and are now looking for more learning contents on the community boards? Other than asking specific lesson related questions hoping that staff will answer, people should really read the postings or post because they want to participate in the Cpod community instead of regarding the boards as an extension of the lessons. Again, a community board is a community board and you cannot effectively control what people wish to say.

Also, Cpod can't have the cake and eat it too. On one hand you want to market and boast to the the world the huge volume of postings (like you did on the Dog Meat lesson) and how involved and active Cpod members are, while on the other hand you want only lesson related postings. The two goals are contradictory. 

At every level of Chinese learning, there can be complains of  "I'm put off by not understanding Chinese postings, or intimidated by these postings."  Even at Intermediate or Upper Intermediate levels, certain postings of natives can be too difficult to completely comprehend.  It is a misguided policy imo to pamper newbies or eles by insisting that chinese characters should be accompanied by pinyin - this policy hampers learning growth via self help, as well as, rob readers of helpful insights when Chinese natives feel inhibited to post. 

To really improve the community content, Cpod needs to stop "sock puppets" from posting.  Many disturbances this year were created by sock puppets using new aliases during the one week trial period to flame poddies. A few of these situations were  exacerbated by Cpod management responding in support of a sock puppet's comments. Surely Cpod's computer control system can identify isp addresses used for abusive purposes.

In closing, I think Cpod should give a higher priority to improve the quality of the teaching services. Such priority will result in more new subscriptions and retention of existing members. Attempting to control the nature of community posting is a waste of resources and a self defeating goal imo.  

Areas where I see improvements can be made in the quality of teaching are (1) value added comments and explanations (above and beyond the lesson trancripts) in the show podcasts (2) more emphasis on chinese grammar in the podcasts (3) less errors in the lessons materials i.e. more quality control checking (4) teaching poddies clear diction and rhythm in speaking chinese, for example, having a recording capability for poddies to record their spoken Chinese and compare to that of the teachers.   

FWIW, simonpettersson, Chinese Pod User Voice was announced in a January News and Features. It's not surprising that you and others wouldn't know it was around.  I wish I remembered it myself more often.

Or just get DimSum Chinese Tools. Works with any browser.

@user21553

If you use Firefox, install the Mandarin Popup extension and you'll get a popup when you hover your cursor over Chinese text on any site.

User21553 :  I doubt if that sort of direct translation would be possible here, but if you go to:   translation.babylon.com     you'll find something which does the trick.  You can also go to:   clavisinica.com    and download some really useful software which allows you to copy and paste chinese text and follow the word-by-word translation of the text; it also has other useful features.

Another useful tool is:  MDBG, which is just about the most user-friendly dictionary online. You can create your own flashcards, or use the site's. It also can give computer translations from chinese to english, and viceversa, but it's broken-chinese and broken-english translations are usually clumsy, and sometimes hilarious.

Good luck !

changye

Behave?  You are the most helpful person here!  I thought you were staff for a long time.

I think it would be great if you had a place where we could find language partners.  Or create a forum so people can do language exchanges.  

Also, it would be nice if you could use the mouse to help translate the characters people post on their comments.  

Thanks Chinesepod!

From now on I'll try to "behave myself" at least in newbee lesson forums. I've now realized that newbie forums might be more important for newcomers and Cpod biz than I thought before. Live long and prosper!

I did not know User Voice existed.

By the way, if Chinese Pod User Voice were better integrated into the site, we could probably have made some of these suggestions earlier.  User voice doesn't look dead, but it doesn't look as active as when I first posted suggestions months ago.  Can a direct link from the "community" portion of the website be connected to User Voice so that users see it everyday?  I guess this is somewhat similar to what Lechaun posted, but using User Voice.

John, another suggestion along the lines of encouraging newbies is to provide them with more feedback that they're doing ok learning mandarin on their own.  I'm curious to know if,  when you talk to newbies as they visit cpod offices,  what other things they tell  you about the site, or about learning in general.  I was wondering if they felt the exercises were too difficult as learning tools, or  if the cpod site was great in general, but newbies coming to cpod offices tell you that the only thing they have a problem with is posting on the site.

another idea is to provide newbies with a little internal recognition for making their first, and fifth posts on the site.  Maybe give newbies an extra week on their subscriptions or something.  Or post something on the board stating that so that user joesmith posted this question.  When you ask newbies that visit cpod offices about what would encourage them to participate, what do they tell you?

Oh, my brother did warn me that no-one is interested in 'meta information.'  I will now test his assertion.  

Anyone looking at this board on a Sunday morning (eg. me) is either highly devoted, weird, bored, home alone or .. catching up after not being able to access ChinesePod yesterday for long periods (also me.)  Either way you might be interested in a little meta-information (I learnt that term from my brother and now I am showing off*.)  My point:  this post is like a microscosm of the ChinesePod world.  

1. Like a lot of boards the conversation is long and difficult to navigate. 

2. There is almost no input from ChinesePod staff (yes I know, too busy, it's the weekend, yadayada.) 

3. It is dominated by a few users (I wont' do the numbers but the post by Tvan gives you the idea.) 

4. There is some incredibly interesting stuff - which will be, in time, lost in cyberspace.  

5. There is some drivel; most but not all of it has entertained me.  

6. Some 'drivel' is in the class of Jane Austen style wit.  Ok, that was a bit of 拍马屁 (flattery.)  But anyway, keep it up guys.  Very cliquey and funny.  As though you need encouragement.  

* Note to those above concerned about show-offs on the boards - I am self-declaring.  

About the Activity Stream, by the way ... It could really be clearer. I just discovered, today, what the hell it is. I've seen the tab before and clicked it, and thought "Oh, so it's keeping track of all of my posts in the community section ... that's nice ... I guess." And then moved on. Now I read something on here and checked it out again and noticed the settings button.

I will still probably not use it (at least not until I'm more advanced), but now I at least know it exists, and if I was a learner who wanted to read and post in Chinese, knowing it was there and how it worked would certainly make me more likely to fork up the big bucks.

Then again, I'm sure I'm just slow. This might have been a freak occurrence.

When I was a newbie (not so long ago), I remember that I wasn't really active on this forum but read most of the comments about the lesson I was studying. At that level, all the questions I had about a lesson were already answered somewhere on the page of this lesson.

Only when I get to the elementary level, did I feel the need to participate ... a bit.

Therefore whatever the changes in the community section I think that the percentage of newbie commenters will stay low.

zhenlijiang,

i have no choice with chinese, or even with english, except when i'm sincerely acting as a teacher.

No I mean accommodate and try to approach the comfort zone of the person you're speaking with, assuming they are not proficient enough to be comfortable in yours. Or do you only do that in Chinese?

Never mind. It's late.

zhenlijiang,

my english is about as basic as you'll find.

somewhere between the curb and the gutter, but its generally a clean gutter, free of indelicacies for the most part. thanks to the local ratepayers the council provides a weekly gutter cleaning service whereby the gutter is thoroughly washed out and all undesirable solids and stains are swiftly, and very adeptly using the latest machine technology, unlike the old omo and a thousand laborer method, removed.

my corner of the gutter is really quite cosy and homely, if not quite spacious, others have even mentioned that because I have a brick to sit on it rather elaborate, and unlike some unfortunate others who share a less than idyllic space in the gutter, I only get spat on occasionally, which, I have to say, I'm grateful to have the privelige to avoid..

Miantiao, I don't know my sports that well. I get a general sense that you're being encouraging however.
If I am to consistently understand more than three-quarters of what you say though you'd have to dumb down your English a lot more, unfortunately.

Cheers. Night.

欢迎光临！

Wait a minute. This discussion is supposed to be about improving the community section, and some bugger has just dragged me down into the gutter. I'm off before it 'improves' any more !

you can tell her if you think you must. she'd probably just wallop you with a wet fish.

no need to tell your mammy, i shouldn't think.  

Sour pussy also has a ring to it, but don't tell your mam.

miantiao

Why are you still up?  Hang on, why am I still up?

hellotherebrick

Thanks to you, some long forgotten memories have come flooding back. Have to get that taste out of my mouth. Ah, but then there was Wendy,... and Heather, ...

i understand. wouldn't want to upset the 神经过敏 types. i really like that word 'indelicate', has a ring to it.

its past my bed time, think i'll have a shower and turn in, but before i do i'll duck off to the indelicatessen for a few indelicacies.

Don't want to be too indelicate.

never heard that one before brick, you tell me?

Sour pussies ?

they do have a tendency to pricke up now and again go-manly, which of course is very different to being constantly pricked?

I really don't see what fixing a computer and studying at cpod has in common.

a mini-camp! cpod boot-camp! great idea, lets put our heads together and see if we existing poddies can't design a mandarin obstacle course.

many such obstacles have already been canvassed in previous lessons so perhaps they can be further developed and adapted to suit the demands needed to be placed on prospective boot-campers in real life situations.

Is it the plural form you're querying Bob? 

Yep, all the world's a stage, as the man said. I put on a performance for my students too, but it's a sincere one.

I think brick meant "most of us are not what we do, but it's not a con." And he's right. There's just no fooling a Yorkshireman.

Sour pusses??

on the suggestion front:

- demographic data - I don't know what data cpod collects on newbies, but I think it would be helpful to start collecting such items as reasons for learning mandarin, comfort level with the internet (this can be further broken down into, do you regularly surf the web, do you buy things online, do you know/guess what's wrong when your computer malfunctions, and do you feel comfortable with fixing your computer), and estimating learning styles. CPOD could also start asking newbies what level of guidance they want when they subscribe, like if they want hands on, or lots of handholding (executive), or they're at some other level.  It would also be good to give newbies a chance to change their minds as they go into the program, so if they decide that after a couple of months, they want lots of handholding after they told you they initially told CPOD they were happy just downloading a pdf, cpod could accomodate that. CPOD would need that demographic data to do the following: 

- newbie mini-camp - for those newbies that wanted it, cpod could go through a mini-camp at a certain date/time and go through a couple of lessons with them.  Walk them through a newbie lesson (again, using skype/webex/livemeeting/gotomeeting etc...), gothrough a few exercises and so on.  This is similar to training, but the difference here is that with this minicamp, cpod assigns "Internet-timid, newbie grandmothers that want some words to talk to grandkids" with others grandmothers with the same interests.  The grandmothers could share real- and user-names (if desired), and they could be introduced to each other as the newbie grandmothers so at least they had comfort with each other, before they go out into the site by themselves.

- temporary newbie-only portion of the cpod site - sometype of sandbox for newbiesonly on a temporary basis could be created.  a separate domain within chinesepod.com would allow logins for 1 month (or whatever temporary time period cpod desires) where newbies look at, and work with a mirrored portion of the site.  the idea here is that they're only working with portion of the site that isn't accessible to the rest of the community, and only temporarily.  Maybe enabling this sandbox would be by invitation only, and based on when newbies signed up. 

zhenlijiang,

don't let a few sour pusses put you off your game. 

reminds of a tactic in aussie rules footy. a player will be nominated to 'tag' a valuable opposition player in order to reduce their effect on the game. a good player, knowing he's being tagged, will generally just get on with it, and if an opportune time presents itself he'll dish out a good 'shirtfront' to remind the tagger of the consequences of being too cheeky.   

Yeah Baba, the recent "Even if ..." QW I know I saw marked as Intermediate, but I can't remember where or find it now. So I tread all over there like it was another Intermediate lesson and maybe I wasn't supposed to.
Nobody from CPod came to comment there btw; to date nobody from CPod has left word there. And people had asked questions.

I'm not sure, I guess an Intermediate QW means that the grammar point being covered is Intermediate level, not that it's not intended for Newbies or Eles to study as well?

Either way I'm assuming now that the same courtesy as in Newbie and Ele discussions needs to be observed in all QWs as well.

go_manly,

I did not think you were talking about me specifically. I asked since I did not know what you were thinking of by "showing off", and yes, I think it may have been better not to put it that way.
All of us are learners here, and those of us who want to practice in public (given the possibility that we will embarrass ourselves) because we hope for feedback--and because actually using the language to communicate is vital to acquisition--should not have to be called showoffs. That's not welcoming, not encouraging.
Although--so what if someone was showing off a bit? Is that so bad? Can't people take a bit of showing off?

Sorry if I seem to be putting words in your mouth. I'm not shouting at you.
I do admit it feels like I'm getting mixed messages from you.

I have not been deterred. I sure have heard enough here to be discouraged. It's okay though! I haven't contributed at all enough to make a difference.

zhenlijiang

I'm not sure why you thought I was thinking of you when I said this. I have definitely seen showing off at these levels, but I have no recollection of who, and would not be able to (nor wish to) single you out. I probably should not have talked of 'showing off' though - these people are just trying to practise the language - they just need to find the right forum.

Please don't be detered from posting at these levels. Ideally Cpod would answer all questions, and most of my talk has been based on the assumption that they will come to the party (did your ears prick up again miantiao?). Assuming that they don't, contributions from experienced poddies are essential at this level.

miantiao,

I'm not the host mate,and I'm not sure if horses are allowed inside the party house,but hey,it's nearly cup day,so how 'bout I see if I can't sneak you in the back door.Yeah,bring the champers mate. :)

zhenlijiang,

You just reminded me of something that I think has been brought up before,but unless I've missed it,has not been made entirely clear,namely QW.Some recent QW's have clearly been around Intermediate level,but others are less clear.If we need to be more sensitive to newbies then I think QW will need to have it's levels more clearly defined.

party! someone mention party? byo is it?

brick,

So, we're willing to put our hands in our pockets for a bit of extra service ?

mate,I think it's going to be different for every poddie how much they're willing/able to pay,and what you and I personally are willing to do will make diddleysquat difference in the grand scheme of things.Further,I'm not sure that some poddies paying a little extra will make as much difference as attracting and keeping newbies as John is aiming for here.I think getting more subscriptions is probably going to make more of a dent.But I'm no business expert..it's just my impression.Further,if one personally is prepared to dig deeper into one's pockets one can go all the way up to executive and get some very attentive responses on a daily basis.But my guess is this is beyond what most people can justify spending.Hey ,I'm sure it's great value though and fantastic for those that can use it.Great to have the different subscription levels.

go_manly,

I don't think I've ever seen a poddie showing off their Chinese or look-up ability in a Newbie or Ele area.
Not fighting here, just asking--have you ever seen me personally show off? If so, could you please point me to the specific thread so I could see what could be perceived as showing off? It's hard to define exactly and perceptions will be different from person to person, and given my relative difficulty (at the start of this discussion at least) with relating to people who feel intimidated here, in what I think of as mostly a friendly place, I would benefit from the perspective.
Thank you.

___________________________

I'm going to keep away from Newbie, Ele and QW discussions for the time being. My batting average isn't nearly high enough to be the kind of helper that is really wanted there. I think it will be good anyway, for me too.

I agree that one learns from helping others. I enjoyed doing it those few times when I could.
But--sorry to be negative here--I think I'm being told in about seven different ways, too often such efforts are simply not welcome.

Ah.  go_manly - You're not alone there, mate; most of us are what we do, but it's not a con.

tal, people I know privately can't believe I am a teacher, and I'm sure my students would not believe how I lead my private life based on what they see of me in the classroom. Perhaps 'con' is too strong - teaching is an 'act'. Every lesson I am acting out a persona that is not me.

Further, if I told every student the harsh reality of their progress, they would very quickly lose heart. Any progress is good, and should be rewarded. Failure to progress (given that there is some effort), should be addressed, but not punished, so my feedback to the kids is not balanced. In that respect, teaching is a con.

Bababardwan:   So, we're willing to put our hands in our pockets for a bit of extra service ?

"Teaching is a con game"  ???     Is this the: "You can't teach someone something they don't already know"-school-of-thought  ?

Teaching is a con game.

  Bob, you sure are cynical. Speak for yourself, mate, speak for yourself.

brick,

People at higher levels here on CPod don't automatically have more understanding; they may have entrenched misunderstandings which a newbie, on their advice, adopts as his own.

...completely agree.Still,I think there's a better chance that someone on a higher level will have the right answer cf advice from a fellow newbie as you seemed to be suggesting in your first post.I think it can come down to the complexity of the question too [of course same questions are much more complex than on face value],where there is more potential for misconceptions in more complex questions.Probably this is pretty infrequent on simpler questions.Further,given that we have a community there is a hope that if a misunderstanding is posed as an answer that someone else will pick up on it [but of course that's not completely reliabe...there can be commonly held misunderstandings].Yep,I too have agreed with go_manly on this.

ah,just seen your edit:

The best option is for each lesson discussion to be overseen by a teacher, time and money permitting, and fewer contributions from self-appointed authorities

..now that's a curly one.Yep,ideally all the questions would be answered by a teacher,but the reality has been that CPod doesn't seem to have the resources to do this 100% or close to 100% of the time.As regards "self-appointed authorities" I'm not sure what you're getting at here.I haven't seen any Poddie appoint themselves as an authority.With respect,this sounds more like your take on things.What I have seen is some very helpful poddies do their best to help out a fellow poddie to the best of their ability.Further,ignoring questions from other poddies could lead us back into the whole clique question...ignoring/excluding/making feel unwelcome newbies.But if that is the view that will be taken;people who try and help will be seen as self appointed authorities then I think that will be very discouraging to those trying to help and to the spirit of the community.But hey,that's just my take on things there.

People at higher levels here on CPod don't automatically have a better understanding on all issues; they may have entrenched misunderstandings which a newbie, on their advice, adopts as his own. Then sorting out the wheat from the chaff becomes a major operation. The best option is for each lesson discussion to be overseen by a teacher, time and money permitting, and fewer contributions from self-appointed authorities.

Having said what I have, I still think Newbies benefit from, and appreciate, comments/questions from more advanced learners. We just need to be more careful about the level to which we take these comments, and their relevance to the lesson at hand. It is when people try to show off their Chinese ability (or Chinese look-up ability) instead of actively taking part in the teaching/learning process, that Newbies start to feel on the outer.

Further, as a Newbie, I DID take notice of other poddies' comments when someone like Jenny commended the poster for the accuracy of their answer. If time is too limited for staff to give detailed answers to questions, a quick reply like this is the next best option.

hellotherebrick,

You may be right mate,but it's not how I would have looked at it.I would have thought that was a little like the blind leading the blind,a worse case scenario of what go_manly was referring to.Personally I would have thought the more authoritative the person answering a question I had as a newbie or whatever level the better.Isn't it best when it's a teacher? But to each their own.Sure newbies could help each other out and figure things out and should be encouraged to do so,but I think it'd be less efficient and one would be learning with less confidence.

Bababardwan:    Take your point. Would it help if those of us beyond Newbie, even Elementary level, made minimal contributions to the debates at those levels in order to encourage more debate between the Newbies themselves - helping each other through the maze at their own level.  Of course, we can still learn a little from the 'easy' lessons, but not much, I imagine.

hellotherebrick,

Yeah,CPod's and I think at the end of every newbie lesson they're not just invited but encouraged to the website to come and join in.I think John has more or less acknowledged this I think in his latest post.As long as the fellow partygoers [poddies] are a friendly bunch,then as Sebire put it above,you can lead a horse to water...

But yeah,I agree with John starting this whole blog to examine what else can be done to encourage newbies.The bigger the party the better. :)

That begs the question - Just who's party is it ?

John,

Thanks for your input on the weekend.

Ok,so our presumptions that you must have been getting PM's or other forms of private feedback [rather than just sock puppet input] that there were lurkers who didn't feel comfortable posting and that this was an issue for them,were correct,and your last post tends to suggest these numbers are significant.But this still leads to my original question based on this correct assumption:

Which of their complaints are genuine and seem valid?

..I mean how much of it is due to a lack of self confidence that is being projected onto the community,and what very specific reasons were identified that seemed to be contributing from the community? I think accusations that the community is a clique are too vague and need substantiation to show that people are being excluded and then address those identified areas [if there are any].

I agree that there seems to be undue attention given to the whole "clique" issue, which was a very small part of the original blog post.

..ok,that's interesting,'cos it sure didn't seem like it was a small issue for CPod.Your blog post was not the first time CPod has raised this,it previously contributed to a change in comments policy,and it seems to be an ongoing issue for CPod.As stated above there seems to be mixed messages from CPod about posting...or maybe it's just changed over time,I dunno.Initially it seemed to be encouraged and now it seems it's being implied that it's causing a problem.I think the message from CPod is confusing and unclear.As many posts do come from the frequent posters and it has been identified as a problem,I think it is no small issue for the community as it stands to know where CPod really currently stands on this.

This is not an insignificant issue to us as a business, because most new users are newbies, and newbies that feel welcome in the community are likely to pay.

...I can completely see and understand this and am behind you 100%.Furthermore,as go_manly pointed out well,it is also in the whole communities best interest.

We're looking for solutions to make newbies feel more welcome

..ok,well the end of your post was sounding a lot more positive.It doesn't feel good to feel scapegoated for the way lurkers may feel.You can welcome someone to the party,but if they don't wanna join in then who's to blame? Actually John,looking back over this last post shows it was all very positive and I applaud your professionalism.Thanks for that . :)

Bababardwan, I completely agree with you (as usual!).  I didn't mean to imply that newbies should be left to find their way through the dark without the guidance of Cpod (and the community). 

I definitely think newbies should be given as much encouragement as possible.  But I don't think everything should be handed to them on a silver platter.  I think newbies need to work hard to understand this language and how it works.  Baby steps are required of course, but I also think it's human nature that when we are given the easy way out (i.e. pinyin and English translations) we will be lazy and not really investigate the meanings further - we will lose an important aspect of learning that would be gained if we at least used a tool like MDBG and looked at each sentences meaning, structure, etc.

Instead of just giving away everything to a newbie, I think it'd be much better if there were resources on the site (or via an early email to newbies) that provided information and web links to some of the other great supplemental sites like MDBG, nciku, etc.  All these sites complement Cpod and I would have found using Cpod much more difficult without them.

(Of course, this is just my opinion and may be completely wrong...just stating my feelings based on my own learning habits).

And to be honest, I think that most people who have been studying Chinese for a couple years would say that it's more difficult than they initially expected.  For me, I know that's true.  I've been studying Chinese for about 3 years (have been living in Taiwan for a year) and I am still clueless.  It's a constant struggle communicating.  I would guess that 9 out of 10 people (sorry, no data;-) would say similar.  This language is a b*tch, but damn it's a fun and rewarding challenge!

baba

There would not need to be any serious testing. Who cares if they have actually made progress - as long as they think they have made progress. Teaching is a con game. Every day I praise one of my students for showing the vaguest hint of insight, when in reality I know they know JS.

PS. I was just admiring the detail (length) of your earlier post which started 'I've gotta be quick'.

xiaophil,

Actually, I wasn't really criticizing or implying anything, just stating the obvious.

..sure mate.I see what you mean.I know you're a fellow enthusiast of this great site and sorry if my post made it look otherwise.

go_manly:

Moreover, the more advanced users do not post on Newbie boards for the sole purpose of being helpful to Newbies.

..agreed.But I hope my above suggestion if it was feasible and uptaken ,would lead to even more altruism.As zhenlijiang has said,currently what is one with good intent to do?]

Calkins,

Sorry,but with great respect ,I can't go along with this bit:

but I think it's important from the beginning, that a new Chinese learner knows that this language is going to kick you in the arse and it ain't gonna be easy

..but I know what you mean and see where you're coming from [and on a personal level I like that attitude to self...an attitude I would like to personally adopt and say despite this,I'm gonna rise to the occasion and enjoy the challenge].However,the reason I don't go along with it is twofold.Firstly I think that nearly everyone would already be entering into with the attitude that it aint gonna be easy [which could be very discouraging to many without your fortitude].They don't need to be told this or have it reinforced.What they do need is,sure no BS,but be shown that progress can be made one lesson at a time and CPod is an awesome site that's gonna make it much easier for you than you imagined [which is no BS...you and I know it's awesome].Jiayou mate though,I like your spirit in tackling this language.

go_manly,

Actually I more or less agree with all you've said in your above posts,and while I agree with your intent in:

give them some positive feedback in the first seven days. Perhaps provide a way of assessing basic levels of competency (at first only for the newest of Newbies), and at least one or two of these levels would be achievable within that first week. The most recent Newbies to achieve these levels would be listed for all to see.

...I'm a little dubious that would work after just 7 days.I think just navigating around the site listening to some lessons,and at the end of a few newbie lessons realising they've learnt some basic phrases and could follow the lessons is reward and encouragement enough in itself.If they're premium and successfully complete the exercises section of a lesson then there you have your sense of achievement there as well.But I do agree with having testing available.I just wouldn't be putting it on 'em after 7 days.

Bababardwan,

CPod don't have the time to answer all these questions themselves,but I'm presuming it would take a lot less time to come along and highlight in green for a correct explanation,red for wrong [or just leave it,whatever],or come along and clarify the situation if it's partially right but not a full and satisfactory explanation.

Yes, absolutely!  I hadn't thought of this, but it is fantastic.  It would be great if staff could also flag a question as 'resolved', like Yahoo groups.

In addition, as I have already said (I really want this to hit home), I hope they can find a way to let users to clearly flag their own comments as questions, perhaps also with a color.  That way everyone can see clearly there is a question.  I don't want to be too negative, but honestly, I don't ask questions much anymore because I have to beg staff to answer them.  Okay, I'll turn off my broken record player now.

Giving all this constructive criticism makes me want to reiterate that "I love CPod."

I had a look at the Newbie lesson Zhenlijiang highlighted as having a high-level discussion. I certainly think that as a Newbie that is very intimidating. Sorry Calkins, I don't agree with your sink-or-swim approach to Newbies. Newbies should be encouraged.

A perhaps silly and controversial idea - put a word limit on Newbie postings. State your question in 100 words or less!

Threading would help a lot, but I have never seen a web-based threading system that works particularly neatly (unlike Usenet readers). If I recall, people on Usenet would put in titles to posts, which would be threaded, collapsed and tagged with codes such as "Revelent" or "Irrelevant".

Navigation is another gripe I have - for example, why is the activity stream hidden under "me"? Why isn't it part of the community? What I would like to see is a navigation system more akin to e.g. www.timesonline.co.uk for example, except that instead of clicking on "sport", you could hover on it and see "Football/Tennis/Cricket" pop up. We could have that on Community: "胡说,your posts, grammar, groups, activity stream". Then I don't have to click twice and wait for something to load just to get to where I want, and then if it's not there, I don't get irritated at having to wait.

Another thing is getting as default much more stuff one one page. When I click on me, I don't want to just see 10 lessons. I just want a big list. When I click on the lesson channels, I just want to see a big list. I know it's possible to get it, but I couldn't tell you without hunting. Perhaps this could be a user setting or a universal change.

My Grammar Discussions group is just a stop-gap to what we really need - themed discussion areas. If people have a grammar post, they can post it there. If an off-topic thead starts getting grammar posts, we could tag them grammar and they would be "cross-posted" into the grammar area. Similarly, culture threads, completely 胡说 threads, Lesson Suggestion folders, etc. etc.

I've gotta be quick,but just wanna briefly say that I think go_manly raised a very good point,namely:

As a Newbie however, I was always reluctant to accept the answer of a non-native still-learning speaker as final, and would always hang out for an official CPod answer - which would be forthcoming only half the time. After all, Newbies do not know which poddies have the reputation for accurate answers

..I agree.I think there are a couple of possible solutions to this.But firstly lets think about a newbie who ,with trepidation,makes their first post.A few possible responses.

A CPod response...oh joy.

A fellow poddie response...great also,but quite likely the reaction go_manly describes.

No response from anyone [worse].hmm,was that just a really daft question? Why doesn't anyone respond? Are there cliques here? etc,etc.

Ok,lets look at it from an Intermediate Poddies perspective.They see a newbie question.Hey,I'm 85-90% sure I know the answer to that ,but I think I should leave that to a more advanced Poddie or a member of CPod staff [after all,I don't want to lead this newbie astray and teach the wrong stuff,or give a confusing answer].Thus this question may get answered by someone else or it may get burried and the newbie feels ignored.

What to do? I think a couple of possible moves could provide a solution but it could well come back to CPod resources.What I think could help is this.A newbie posts a question.I don't know the answer so I leave it to someone else.But if I think theres a pretty good chance I know the answer and can explain I have a stab at it.Then it works a bit like the activity stream.CPod don't have the time to answer all these questions themselves,but I'm presuming it would take a lot less time to come along and highlight in green for a correct explanation,red for wrong [or just leave it,whatever],or come along and clarify the situation if it's partially right but not a full and satisfactory explanation.This could also work like a defacto reputation system if that's what you're looking for.Ok,why do I think this is more likely to work? Ok,from an Intermediates perspective,the benefits are twofold.Firstly,one is more inclined to have a stab at it as one will know that if one is wrong then at least this will be highlighted and the newbie won't have been led astray.Also,it is oft said that teaching something can be one of the best ways to learn.Furthermore,by putting some thought into it,having a stab,getting it wrong and then being corrected by someone else,we have all learnt something.I see it as a win-win situation.Ok,so staff resources are limited.An intermediate gets it wrong.But CPod doesn't have to step in straight away [they may not even have gotten around to marking it at this stage].Some other poddie has another stab at it...either a slightly more accurate answer or something completely different.Very good chance a Poddie will come up with the right answer and CPod will only have to mark many questions,particularly at the lower level where the questions are likely to be easier.There could be some disclaimer possibly at the bottom of poddie answered questions along the lines of it not having been checked by a moderator from CPod until it has been.

On a completely different approach to go_manly's identified problem could be this [though I favour the above]: Currently we do have our levels identified in our profiles but there are two problems with this.Day one I could have claimed I was advanced and there would have been nothing to stop me.Secondly,I might seriously think I'm intermediate but be really only Ellie,and have big holes when it comes to grammar related questions.This is where I think the new testing could also potentially be of benefit.If CPod had rounded testing for those who elected to participate in it,then you could be a CPod certified Intermediate or whatever and this could enhance newbie confidence in your answers [obviously a lot more confident if you were certified advanced,but may be somewhat confident in an Intermediate's answer if you felt your question was pretty basic]

ps Calkins,

Ever since the pinyin tone converter tool has been added I've been meaning to suggest adding a similar but hopefully slightly easier [though I still thought this could be a challenge for down the line] tool next to the convert to tone marks tool..namely.convert hanzi to pinyin [without the more difficult step of having to give a translation at this stage which I agree would be even more ideal]

This thread is getting long, so i'm reposting the relevant portion of John's blog:

The biggest question, of course, is overall community organization. Staff identification and a user reputation system are nice, but they don’t solve the bigger problem: how to better organize your community content. Here are some of the things we’re hearing:

• The search isn’t good enough; I can’t find certain discussions even when I’m pretty sure they’re there.
• With no history or bookmarking features, I find it hard to find useful discussions again.
• The discussions are too chaotic. We need threaded comment discussions like most forums have.
• Group discussions are too buried; they need to be made more central.
• Lesson discussions are often way too off-topic to be useful. I need help finding the content that helps me learn.
• The community discussion often feels like a clique. I don’t feel comfortable commenting.
• Lesson discussion, even on Newbie lessons, is way too advanced. I don’t feel comfortable commenting.

- not sure why cpod is moving forward on a user reputation system.  It would be nice to hear the rationale behind that.

- regarding search- suggest enabling searching by users.  Also, suggest enabling as a default the "lesson dialogue and vocabulary" box.  Suggest also making users aware that the search works "english only", not pinyin, might be helpful.

- regarding content search - part of the problem in searching for user posts is that we can't even see all of our posts in a single page. For example, I can see the 18 or so posts in my post list all in one page.  But I can only see 10 comments per page on the community section on me. It might help if we could see more posts per page, so one suggestion is to put a pull down box on the page so that can see 10, 20, 50 or 100 results per page for the community section/lesson discussions. 

- another search capability that might be helpful would be from what we find in Windows.  Can we enable search on ONLY a section of the website that we want?  For example, I would love to be able to search through the approximately 450 comments i've made over the past 21 months for the comment I made that formed the basis of my comment on "cliques" that has generated some discussion here. I would need a capability that search on the lesson discussion, not just the lesson titles, and would have to search on only my lessons. Also, it might be helpful if we could enable the search by hanzi, pinyin, and english. it would also help if we could enable search by time period, so that I don't have to search on stuff from 21 months ago, but only around 15 months ago. (by the way, as I type this, I realize this is a capability that can't be delivered likely even next year, but it would be helpful).

- for search, newbie comfort, site "work-and-play-well togetherness" issues, I suggest a creating a monthly (or maybe every 6 weeks or so) newbie user class for training on how to use the website. Newbies (and veterans) could sign up for training at their whim, but the course itself would be scheduled well in advance to support cpod staff schedules.  The course doesn't need to be long; maybe 15 minutes or so.  A draft agenda might be

• how to use the site
• things to expect using the site
• learning mandarin on your terms
• Q/A

The training could be conducted using skype (unless cpod has a livemeeting/webex/goto meeting subscription), and users could be walked through basic functions of the site, and then gently encouraged to participate in the lesson discussions. Certainly, cpod could answer any questions/concerns new users have real time. Webex/livemeeting and other tools would also allow the people who want to participate, but feel uncomfortable asking questions in a public forum, so cpod could enable them to ask questions online, and then their question can be asked publicly, but anonymously.

Guys,

I don't have a lot of time to comment right now (it's the weekend!), but let me say a few things.

1. We know many Newbies feel uncomfortable posting because (1) they tell us by email, (2) they tell us in person if we ask when they visit the office, or (3) they tell us in the feedback form when they actually pay for the service. We're not just going on hunches here.  This is a repeated theme that we hear a lot.  This is not an insignificant issue to us as a business, because most new users are newbies, and newbies that feel welcome in the community are likely to pay.  (That said, we do agree that ChinesePod already has an awesome community.)

2. I agree that there seems to be undue attention given to the whole "clique" issue, which was a very small part of the original blog post. The post was not meant to be accusatory. There's talk of whether it's the veterans' responsiblity to change their habits, or the Newbies' responsibility to buck up and post. Well, I say it's neither. You guys are great, but we can't blame the Newbies either. It's hard learning a new language, to admit repeatedly that you don't understand anything. I say it's ChinesePod's responsibility to guide the community, which is exactly what we're trying to do here. I think if we make the right changes, you guys can continue posting to your hearts' content, and Newbies can also feel less intimidated.

The question ChinesePod is asking is not, "are we a clique?" or "are cliques bad?"  Those aren't really productive questions.  We're looking for solutions to make newbies feel more welcome, and to make people happier with our service.  (Threaded commenting is a good example of a fix we could do which would make nearly everyone happier.)

Happy Halloween!

calkins,

I don't think there is a need for a 'survival of the fittest' attitude here. Clearly Cpod wants to encourage more experimental Newbies to take the plunge.

As an outright Newbie, one generally is not aware of the resources available to them elsewhere. Moreover, they don't really understand the structure of the language - for example how many Newbies would understand after their first couple of lessons that one character = one Pinyin syllable - its not really spelled out anywhere. Without this basic feel for the language, they are not going to make much sense of any online resources they manage to find.

Newbies only have one week to make a decision, and they really have to get some positive feedback within that week if they are to feel as though they would like to continue. Most people here seem to think that Cpod is the only one to benefit by attracting new poddies. We are all screaming out for improvements to this site, while rarely considering the resources required to make those improvements. More poddies = more money = more opportunity for improvement.

Cpod

In order to encourage more Newbies, perhaps ways can be found to give them some positive feedback in the first seven days. Perhaps provide a way of assessing basic levels of competency (at first only for the newest of Newbies), and at least one or two of these levels would be achievable within that first week. The most recent Newbies to achieve these levels would be listed for all to see.

At present Newbies are left to their own devices, unless they can build up the courage in that first 7 days to post simple questions, when, as far as they can tell, most of the other "Newbies" are much more advanced than them.

I really don't have a problem writing pinyin and making translations for newbies, but in return, I think staff should talk to us users first in Chinese in the intermediate and higher courses, even if the user asks a question using English.  If communication breaks down, then they can resort to English.  I feel not enough is done around here to promote a Chinese environment, and English is a terribly bad crutch.  EnglishPod obviously doesn't have this problem as their lessons are thoroughly in English.  To tell you the truth, I'm a bit jealous.

go_manly,

Points well taken.
About sorting the good stuff from the garbage, I guess that's why the idea of "reputation" is being considered. Personally I'm still not crazy about such a labeling system, and anyway not even those poddies with stellar credentials and track records are perfectly correct 100 percent of the time, as they will be the first to say.

I guess it's best if our teachers just answered questions a bit more quickly (more consistently than half the time at least)?
And I know--they are all extremely busy. I know.

Actually I am guilty myself (I'm an Intermediate learner), I recall now, of having partaken in a kind of higher-level discussion about a month ago on a Newbie lesson.
I just went and looked at it; I had bothered at least to provide pinyin. But though there was a connection I was aware that we were digressing from the lesson content. I just found that discussion very interesting and intellectually stimulating, and in fact still want to go back and address it (which I had always planned to do in a new, separate thread).
I'm sorry if our discussion turned anyone off from studying that lesson.

Even then, I would say that any of the content that doesn't strictly keep with the "appropriate level" or lesson content could be helpful, educational or inspiring for some Newbie or Ele poddie out there. It seems a shame to preclude all those chances for learning, seems so austere and unengaging.

Calkins,
Perhaps there is a clique here because those who are here the most are those who are the most dedicated to learning this language.
Haha, that's very kind!

I still don't agree with Cpod's comment policy that English should be provided with Chinese written in Newbie and Elemetary lessons.  Yes, for a newbie, all Chinese posts are very intimidating.  But learning Chinese (or any language) is intimidating.  I've lived in Taiwan for a year now and I'm still intimidated every day (when will it end?!).  Learning this language is hard work...so why be so sensitive to newbies and give them a false impression? 

Again, why make the "veteran" do the work (by providing pinyin and/or English)?  Instead, why not make the newcomer do the work?  Perhaps provide a link to MDBG where newbies can copy and paste all-Chinese posts and get a (not perfect, but decent) translation.  Or better, Cpod could create its own translation tool (I know that's a big one, but maybe a good goal way off in the future).

I think Cpod needs to expect less from those who have already put in the hard work of studying Chinese, and expect more from the newbies.  Maybe that sounds a bit harsh to someone new to Chinese...but I think it's important from the beginning, that a new Chinese learner knows that this language is going to kick you in the arse and it ain't gonna be easy.  Perhaps there is a clique here because those who are here the most are those who are the most dedicated to learning this language.  Just a thought.

zhenlijiang

There is nothing wrong with more advanced poddies helping out in Newbie and Ele discussions. As a Newbie however, I was always reluctant to accept the answer of a non-native still-learning speaker as final, and would always hang out for an official CPod answer - which would be forthcoming only half the time. After all, Newbies do not know which poddies have the reputation for accurate answers - we only learn to sort the truth from the BS over time.

Moreover, the more advanced users do not post on Newbie boards for the sole purpose of being helpful to Newbies. The level of Chinese they use can be quite offputting to a Newbie who is judging their progress by the ability of the other supposed Newbies around him.

So, by all means advanced poddies should assist the Newbies, but I believe they should restrict their higher-level discussions to the higher-level boards.

Sebire,

What encourages people to join in is when questions in Newbie lessons are answered. I remember thinking how cool it was that Amber/John had actually answered my questions, which certainly helped me participate.

Exactly.

And so because our teachers are often busy and can't answer questions quickly as they especially have been recently,  1. more advanced poddies will try to help answer the Newbie and Ele questions. 2. Most of those more advanced poddies are some of the most frequent posters--their helpfulness makes them post even more. And 3. they will often use hanzi in their replies--with English of course, and pinyin too most of the time--as did Amber as far as I recall (and I've said before, I too thought it was super how she went and fielded all those questions for every lesson).

And in this thread, we have heard that 1. perhaps advanced poddies should stay out of Newbie and Ele discussions as they could be intimidating the Newbie and Ele learners.  2. use of hanzi (really, how do you help answer a question on Chinese without using Chinese, when the whole website uses hanzi, even Newbie lessons?) can seem exclusionary.

What's a helpful community member to do then?
When all he or she wants is to help newcomers and Newbie and Ele learners feel welcome?

Re your thoughts on the off-topic stuff, agree with you completely.

Tvan, you must be havin' a laugh, mate:

"Search:  It seems to me that was mostly addressed in the last upgrade."

No, no, no. The search feature is next to useless. I don't use it, I use Google, and would encourage everyone to use the "site:chinesepod.com" feature to search it. I am no expert, but surely it cannot be unaffordable to buy a third-party solution to this problem rather than try to re-invent the wheel in-house?

As for cliques - as a Newbie lurker, it is intimidating to see a group of people with all their in-jokes, speaking entirely in Chinese on a Newbie discussion. What encourages people to join in is when questions in Newbie lessons are answered. I remember thinking how cool it was that Amber/John had actually answered my questions, which certainly helped me participate. I used to skip through the all-Chinese posts on Elementary, but I do agree it's much nicer if people add a translation.

Despite thinking that filters and categories of posts are a good idea, what makes me wonder is that if you are Newbie that has their filter to set to "不要胡说", what would encourage you one day to flick the 胡说 switch and see what the rest of us are babbling on about?

The last time this issue of off-topic stuff came up, I think it was introduced poorly and just annoyed a lot of regulars unnecessarily. I hope this does not occur again. The community is one of CPod's USPs, so I hope any changes designed to encourage participation are implemented more sensitively this time. You can lead a horse to water, but if it doesn't want to drink, at least let the other horses have a drink seeing as they've forked out for it.

Good morning Pretzellogic,

I re-read this thread now and it occurs to me that not just I, but likely others also, failed to correctly interpret the position you were taking.
I know you've explained your intent, but it was I think still a little hard to understand.

To me for instance it totally was not registering that you were saying in the first post you made after you returned from running:
And at the end of the day, the nature of the internet allows everyone to contribute, and you have to take initiative and participate.
with which I of course agree; I totally overlooked that because it wasn't highlighted in any way, but really mostly because it was preceded with:

I'll speak from my own experience (in high school, as the new kid in a new city) and say that I sure the hell do understand why new subscribers might think there are cliques.  The same people post over and over, and they talk comfortably about off topic things, and then they start using Chinese characters in newbie and ele lesson (extremely exclusionary). Further, when cpod staff periodically weigh in to ask people to cease and desist posting in Mandarin on newbie and ele lessons, they ignore them.  If i'm a new person, I don't care that maybe no one on this particular thread was guilty of writing mandarin characters on a newbie lesson discussion, I see it and get intimidated.

which grabbed nearly all my attention.

You said later, in reply to Baba:
What I was trying to do is give my take on JOHN's post.  I thought I was giving evidence about why subscribers would feel the way they did.

I do think this is confusing Pretzellogic. So this was in response to Baba earlier asking (I was completely with him on that), Where is the evidence that people are being excluded in the CPod community?
I gather. But what you gave was not evidence of course; it was an imagined scenario wasn't it--? What some person could possibly think.

I was also confused by your reply to me:
I took John's call for ideas seriously, so I was trying to post multiple ideas to multiple areas. I was really brainstorming.
So if I understand you correctly now, you were not making your own position clear in that post at all, you were brainstorming and suggesting thoughts that other people could be having? Is that right?
If so, that was not easy to understand.

I'm sorry if my responses to you have sounded offended; I was not angry, not offended. Perhaps we disagree on this "clique" issue less than was my impression yesterday, but even if we do disagree, that's no reason for any animosity. Hope you agree with that, and can see how I failed to understand you.

祝你周末快乐!  Zhù nǐ zhōumò kuàilè!
Have a good weekend!

I agree with lechuan, a way of structuring error reporting (and maybe "alert the moderators", for when people start getting personal) is sorely needed.

bababardwan

Yes.  Actually, I wasn't really criticizing or implying anything, just stating the obvious.  I can see how that could be taken the wrong way.

lechuan

That is similar to what I had in mind.  I was thinking that before someone posts, he or she has to categorize his or her post, such as 'question' for example.  Then at the top of the page a user can choose to filter out all other topics that are not related to 'question'.

Another part of me thinks, dare I say, CPod should mimic facebook.  In their threading system, if a thread gets too big, it partially collapses and only reveals the top two and top bottom comments.

I think threaded comments and 'cliques' are one and the same thing. My feeling is that people who complain about cliques are really complaining about tangential discussions in lessons.

--------

Not sure how threaded comments could work in the lessons, but here's one suggestion: Emulate threaded comments with a couple of discussion tabs. 

The main tab is for directly lesson-related discussion.

The other tab is for tangential discussions.

Community moderation would be in the form of a small icon that would switch a comment between these two tabs. This icon would also allow people to clean up older discussions as they see fit, leaving the lesson related gems in the main tab while leaving the tangential stuff in the other tab.

-------

A way to report lesson problems REALLY needs to be centralized. It looks really bad for chinesepod when users see unanswered "the pdf link doesn't work", "the exercises are broken", etc.

At the top of each lesson prominently display a link "Problem with this lesson? Click here". This would allow the user to enter the problem in some kind of feedback form, list the problem for all users to see, require follow-up by chinesepod whom would fix the problem and post the resolution information. This would stay up permanently. This would 1) make it obvious to users how to report a problem 2) make it easy for chinesepod staff to see that there is a user complaining about a problem 3) Provide a history log for other users to show that if they post their problem there that it will get resolved.

tvan,

What the heck are the "Cabal-wannabes" mate?

贵州. (Ooooh, a character.)

..laugh out loud.

but I think an off-topic discussion beats no discussion.

..I agree.Further,where do you draw the line? Ok,sometimes things have ventured way off topic,but I think a lot of the time/most of the time it's at least bordering on it.I can usually see a connection.Isn't it natural for a free flowing conversation to digress a bit.When does one start a new thread for this? Often seems a bit cumbersome or random to do this.Like you're leaving the room to go and chat about this.I think little boxes you could tick to identify the nature of your post that others could apply filters to would be a lot easier.Categories such as ...grammar question,vocab question,culture question,joke,胡说，that others could then apply a filter to if they wanted to would be better.

I never imply and had not intent to offend.  I just can't help having fun with the handle

no worries mate,none taken.I thought you were joking but confess I wasn't 100% certain.Hey,always feel free to have fun with my name.I can't help myself in that regard either.I see too much I think.

Bababardwan, you're right, actually. That is all for now.

xiaophil,

That said, CPod of course should do something to let the new users feel comfortable easing into the community.

...sure,but I reckon ever since I've been on the site I must have heard hundreds of encouraging messages to come and post [at the very least one at the end of each podcast].Ken set up a post a few months ago specifically to try and get input on how to help and encourage newbies and many contributed to that.Sure if they can continue to come up with new effective ways then great,but I think they have been making plenty of effort in that regard.When staff were more active they would often welcome newbies to the site when they first posted too and of course lurking newbies could see this.I don't think there's any lack of trying here.

Tvan, thanks! You apologizing for the length of your post makes me look really really really bad.

Someday I will post on the 胡说 Group, a little list called My "Best of CPod Community". You will make it in, but I can't figure out how to do it. My favorite ... style? Sounds dumb, even for 胡说.

@babardawan, don't worry, I never imply and had not intent to offend.  I just can't help having fun with the handle.  Ah man, that's three isn't it.  Damn.  Well, I can't post any more, so its back to the hotel bar.

Okay, as a dues-paying member of the Chinesepod Cabal-wannabes, I'll post the following comments on John's post:

Search:  It seems to me that was mostly addressed in the last upgrade.
History:  Not sure what that means.
Threaded Comments:  Great idea, long overdue.
Off-topic discussions:  I see the point, but I think an off-topic discussion beats no discussion.  Besides, how do you enforce this?  Send the offender to rehabilitation in 贵州. (Ooooh, a character.)
Clique:  I don't get this one.  There are a certain percentage of people who are insecure.  Why pander to them?
Discussions too advanced:  That comment reminds me of the only class I took in Chinese last year where some of the students went and complained to the dean that the instructor "was speaking too much Chinese."  Man it up ladies!  IMO, any exposure is good for you.  Besides, if you don't feel wading through a topic, skip it.  Actually, threaded topics would help here.

Actually, I've only felt uncomfortable twice in this forum.  Once was when I made the comment that "English food is better than Chinese food" and got beat up by the English poddies.  (They thought I was being sarcastic?)  The other time was when I posted on an advanced forum and used an archaic term for computer (计算机).  A then-card-carrying-clique-member posted a three screen rant in Chinese explaining why this was unacceptable, critiqued every grammatical/homophone error I made, and told me that I had no business posting in characters unless I could do so accurately.  I obviously ignored the last bit but, after getting over my wounded pride, learned quite a bit from his post. 

BTW, I apologize for the length of this post, but I am trying to say what I wanted to say without violating the three-post limit invoked above and being sent to CPod's pig-shit-shoveling rehabilitation collective in 贵州/Gui4zhou1/A province in Southern China.

tvan,bodawei,

Yeah,I immediately got the beach boys reference,but also didn't miss the implication that I was blah blah blah 'ing on,hehe.Do hits equate to posts? If so,shouldn't I have been 9 at that stage? Or perhaps most of us had posts and the guys on 4 had "hits",hehe.

bodawei, you've put a smile on my jaded countenance! 拍马屁！But if you're taking me for one of the vets, I must really be posting too much!

Simon:

As John's blog that started this discussion had this:

"The community discussion often feels like a clique. I don’t feel comfortable commenting."

..as one of the points,I fail to see how the above discussion is being considered by you as off topic.It certainly isn't the whole topic,but on the other hand it was one of the points raised.

So until anyone says something to the contrary, can we assume nobody is saying that the frequent posters should post less?

...pretzellogics 1st post:

• Regarding the "clique" feel to some of the lesson discussions, Limit lesson posts to 2-3 per person, unless some way can be found to automate limiting off-topic discussions.

..further on he had:

The same people post over and over,

..which seemed to further imply it.

As you concede tvan also made the point,but I think he's joking around here though.

Actually, I used to think CPod was a little clique-ish, but then I got involved more, and now I don't.  I think jumping into a group is always a little intimidating, so maybe this is a bit natural.  That said, CPod of course should do something to let the new users feel comfortable easing into the community.

I agree with changye.  CPod should identify staff more clearly.  I think John mentioned that they would do precisely this, which is good.  However, I feel in general CPod's strength has never been communication.  I never get the feeling that the staff has a systematic way of dealing with questions.  If when we left comments we could click a little box that would flag it as a question, I think that would be great.  That way there would be no more "I didn't see your comment because it was over the weekend or it was in an old lesson or it was in the middle of an off-topic discussion."

By the way, the bold print above is to aid skimming, not to indicate anger ;-).

@tvan

just getting my numbers up so I can join the clique.  :-) 

[Maybe we should do something about people who use too many emoticons?  Except tal of course, who has like emeritus status.  Even though he is not that old, I was surprised to read (in ChinesePod years that is.) 

I really liked what you did to Bababardwan's name - echoes of the beach and so on. But then you are from California aren't you?

Simon - this post is actually for you.  You know what Australians are supposed to think of authority .. Internet police .. and so on.  Being told to stay on topic.  Ok, that's all, I'm out of here before I get kicked out.   

Simon (sorry Tvan and everybody else it's not that I cannot understand I am posting too much), I accept that it may not be helping the discussion at this point (until John clarifies) but it is relevant.
And I'm not going to push this point any further or try to persuade anyone to see it like I do.

Zhenlijiang said:

Simon I don't know how long you've been here. There's background, history, to this clique-not-clique issue; the word didn't just come up for the first time now.

I ... don't see how that's relevant. Nobody on this discussion right here has made that claim, and defending against a claim made by someone months ago, in a comment that was later deleted ... I can't see how that will help the discussion.

So until anyone says something to the contrary, can we assume nobody is saying that the frequent posters should post less?

EDIT: Damnit, while I was typing, tvan did say that. So nevermind.

John, please come and get us back on topic (which is, as I recall, ideas on how to improve the community)!

Ooops, very sorry, John, I should've read your blog more carefully before I posted that comment. It's too late...........

This will change next week, as each ChinesePod employee’s comments all over the site will be clearly labeled, and also linked to a “ChinesePod Team” page where you can see a list of the ChinesePod hosts, teachers, and support staff, both current and past.

Okay, it's the seventh inning here, crowd's standing up for the stretch, San Francisco Giants come up to bat next, so let's look at the action so far...

• Babababababarbaraanne   7
• Zhenlijiang 6
• Henning 5
• Simonpeterson and Pretzellogic both with 4 hits
• John 3

pretzellogic,

"Rather than attack my post,"

..hey mate,hang on.I'm sorry you saw it that way.I thought we were just debating a few things here."Attack" seems a bit strong.There was no disrespect intended.Sorry if it came across that way.I must say though,that if it's going to be taken that way it's pretty discouraging to have an adult debate.I have agreed with many things you've posted before on this site,whether I've posted to say so or not.Do I have to agree with everything you say? I just saw things differently this time.

if you're concerned with users viewpoint, spend some time getting more data about the users.

..I agree with getting more data and will be very interested in what John has to say,but I'm not in much of a position to do this myself [or am I ? I dunno.Perhaps I could start a post asking...but then again couldn't they just weigh in on this post...and if they're too shy,then shouldn't we just wait to see what John has to say?]

Simon I don't know how long you've been here. There's background, history, to this clique-no-clique issue; the word didn't just come up for the first time now.

Even I, with my sickening memory for certain details, don't remember exactly what week in what month there was a flare-up (started by a sock puppet who complained of such, saying "it would be interesting to see what percentage of all posts on the boards are made by the top dozen posters" etc., also making reference to "the usual suspects" or whatever term it exactly was, but you get the meaning). You won't find any of those posts because they were all later deleted but it was not a pleasant exchange. That was only one incident.
This is why I kept referring to "sock-puppet types".

When anyone says something like The same people post over and over, doesn't it sound to you like a complaint about the frequent posters' conduct that ought to be corrected?  Sorry, Preztellogic's latest post has confused me. So I'm crossing this out.

Pretzellogic--I'm not offended; like I said I was surprised, disappointed and sad, that anyone could conceivably feel that way on a Chinese learning site in general. The idea just never occured to me.
Not that I thought I was being accused (but even if I had slipped up and posted hanzi without any English translation I never had any ill intent, and can only apologize to any Newbie and Ele users and promise it won't happen again).
Of course I am not interested in finding culprits. So you are out to get people who use hanzi in Newbie and Ele discussions? If so I am dismayed. Really disappointed. Hopefully I misunderstood your meaning there.

zhenlijiang.

Preztellogic I am very surprised, disappointed and sad, to hear that using hanzi anywhere in Chinesepod posts is perceived as exclusionary

I apologize upfront if I offended you.  This is the last thing I wanted to do.  I know I didn't mention names in my post, but I don't recall you, bababardwan, henning, bodawei or anyone else on this thread doing that.  I do recall pearltowerpete sending reminders someone's way about them only posting hanzi when I posted something on a newbie lesson, and I had a question about the lesson.  This was months, and dozens of comments ago, so I apologize since my factkeeping is not up to standard, and I can't identify the culprit in that case. I'm not sure how important it is here to do so.

These last 2 comments strike me as comments made by subscribers in answer to poll questions, or in phone interviews.
I did not get this impression, and am not really seeing why you did.
I read John's blog post of course, before commenting here

 zhenlijiang, I got this impression because I generated lots of  survey questionairres and received responses from web based, and phone based surveys.  Respondents in agreggate tended to sound that way, about "I don't feel comfortable commenting". I ASSUMED (yes, I know what happens when you assume), that John didn actually mean that he didn't feel comfortable commenting, so it took it as a survey respondent.  But I would defer to John on whether these comments were from surveys of newbie users. I would agree that I was speculating/guessing.

 The same people posting over and over--I believe you have no ill will against me, a fellow Steely Dan fan, otherwise I might think your tone was hostile; I wish I didn't feel this way.

(i'm highlighting what you said in response to my post so that its clear who's saying what (I hope)). I know that I didn't say this in the original post, but I thought I made it clear that I knew I frequently posted, and posted off-topic for that matter.  I took John's call for ideas seriously, so I was trying to post multiple ideas to multiple areas. I was really brainstorming.

I'm sorry, can someone point me to the comment that said it's the frequent posters that need to change and/or should post less often? I see a lot of refuting that claim, but I can't seem to find the comment that made the claim in the first place.

I'm not accusing people of straw man argumentation, but I think people are reading a bit too much into some of this stuff.

I personally don't understand why it's a problem that there is what some consider a clique in this community.  Just about every community begins as a clique.  It's not the responsibility of those in the clique to change what they do.  It's the responsibility of those who want to "join" to take the first step.

If people are afraid to join in conversations, that is their choice.  But please don't suggest that frequent posters should post less frequently because you're not willing to take the first step.  Every frequent poster has made that first post.  It's not that difficult if you really want to join in.

Cpod has an amazing community (far better than most online communities I've come across).  I would say 99% of the contributors here are welcoming and non-exclusionary.  And even if frequent posters go off tangent, it usually has a way of coming full-circle right back to Chinese.  Sometimes these tangents are very beneficial and educational (especially since this is a global community...lots to learn from other cultures).

I'm not sure why Cpod sees a "total user to active user" ratio problem.  Like others have said, every online community has its regulars.  That will never change.  Some will leave, some will stay for a while, some will come back when they have more time, etc. etc.  It's a natural process just like all communities in life are.  Why mess with this??  And why discourage those regulars who contribute so much?

I'm trying to understand why Cpod sees this as a problem (this community has worked like a charm for almost 5 years).  Obviously, the more "active users", the greater paid subscription potential, but how does that benefit the community?  John, is this Cpod's main reasoning, or is there something I've completely overlooked?  Again, the responsibility should be on the inactive user to make him/herself an active one...not the other way around.

..firstly,to quote the comments policy:

"Out of consideration for our Newbie and Elementary users, English translations should be provided with any Chinese (characters or pinyin) written in Newbie and Elementary lesson discussion posts."

Thanks for the reminder. I knew there was a policy, but didn't quite remember what it was or where to find it.

bababardwan;

cool that you addressed my post.  What I was trying to do is give my take on JOHN's post.  I thought I was giving evidence about why subscribers would feel the way they did.  I assume that John got that data from somewhere. But i'll be succinct.  Rather than attack my post, why didn't you just ask John for further clarification about the two user user points I raised? I agree with simonpettersson, if you're concerned with users viewpoint, spend some time getting more data about the users.  I'll listen along with you when John weighs in, as I am interested in any survey data about new cpod users anyway.

simonpettersson,

I partially agree,but mostly disagree.

Just that it sometimes feels that way to some users

...while peoples feelings are extremely important and need to be looked into and considered,feeling a certain way about something doesn't make it an actuality.I don't want to go off on another tangent here but could give millions of examples on this.

"John has recieved some input and actual opinions. The rest of us are obviously not the kinds of people who hesitate to contribute and we're just guessing as to how people are feeling."

..I agree with this.That's why I asked those questions above.I think it would be very interesting to get an idea of numbers of people who are feeling this way and the way the feedback was received.Most importantly I think it would be worth looking at the specifics of any perceived barriers to participating in the community.Even a reason like "clique" is too vague and broad.I'd be looking at specifically why they felt this way and see if there is something valid that could be addressed.

"The rest of us are just stabbing in the dark."

...I think that's going a little far.After all,we've been in the same shoes ourselves..been brand new to CPod,never heard of changye before.We all see what happens on the boards.Sure we may be missing things and I'm interested to see what we've missed,but I don't think we're completely blind to what's happening in the community.

Bababardwan:

I don't think anyone is claiming that people are trying to be exclusive. Just that it sometimes feels that way to some users. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Also, while posting Chinese characters on newbie lessons might be educational, I'd say this is only true of up to maybe three characters or so at a time. Posting a bunch of characters, even if you translate, might feel a bit ... something.

But here's the thing: we're all just guessing what people are thinking. John has recieved some input and actual opinions. The rest of us are obviously not the kinds of people who hesitate to contribute and we're just guessing as to how people are feeling. Either refuting it or trying to explain it seems a bit pointless, as we're just making assumptions about other people.

The whole "clique" thing seems like it's a bit pointless for us to discuss here unless we have a clear picture, which we do not. John has a partial picture, I guess, which could get clearer by talking to people who feel this way. The rest of us are just stabbing in the dark.

pretzellogic,

"I'll speak from my own experience (in high school, as the new kid in a new city)"

..with respect ,this is just the sort of thing I suspect...projecting one's own life experiences elsewhere and extrapolating/making unfounded assumptions here.

The same people post over and over, and they talk comfortably about off topic things

...as you are also a frequent poster,and as you claim that you go off topic,and at the same time seem to be against cliques,I'm sure your intentions were not to make others feel you were part of a clique to which others were not welcome.

"then they start using Chinese characters in newbie and ele lesson (extremely exclusionary)."

..firstly,to quote the comments policy:

"Out of consideration for our Newbie and Elementary users, English translations should be provided with any Chinese (characters or pinyin) written in Newbie and Elementary lesson discussion posts."

..Chinese characters in those levels are thus ok as long as they are provided with English translation.Surely rather than being exclusionary and intimidating they have educational value..what we are all here for..to learn Chinese.I remember there was a time that I had not noticed this policy and had to have it pointed out and may have needed a reminder or two,but I don't think I've slipped up since [to my knowledge].It felt funny though 'cos I considered myself a newbie myself at the time and suddenly it felt like I was being discouraged from trying to work out how to post Chinese,what I was here to learn.

I think several messages are sent out encouraging others to post.CPod encourages it after every lesson.New posters are often responded to in a friendly manner as far as I can see.

I know I would welcome John/Jenny etc on the boards, and asking comments and feedback, and providing occasional adult supervision. Further, if cpod delegated the task of asking users to be level specific, I know I would think "look, hall monitor, this isn't junior high, and I can do what I want. Plus, i'm a paying subscriber like you, so drop dead"(I never said I was mature!).

...I don't get this bit.Sounds like you do want CPod weighing in like we're all kids and then it sounds like you don't.

I tried in my comments to address as many of the points that John raised in the blog about the community board.  Somehow, this discussion has predominately revolved around the "clique".

..what,so if we want to comment on something we can't unless we address every other point raised? What if we have nothing to add there? Once again,just because currently a lot of the discussion is about cliques,what's stopping anyone else discussing the other issues raised?

bodawei,

I agree with many of your points,especially with the testing being for personal feedback and with 2A.I'm not particularly interested in being on some sort of board.But perhaps there could be a separate competition board for those who want it.It might be fun and maybe I would participate if there was a prize..maybe not.I'd have to see if it interested me or not.I don't agree with point 3.If we're wanting to move away from cliques would that have the potential to lead the other way? I don't know.I'll reserve judgement till I see more specifically what's proposed ,but I'm not inclined to it.

ps Oh,I see I was writing while you posted simonpettersson.Yeah,that's my inclination too with the reputation system.It seems contrary to the direction they're talking about.

Changye,

I agree ..that comments policy was never very obvious.I think the admin tag is coming as John mentioned.It sounds like a good move.

I always wonder why Chinesepod makes important notices and links incredibly unnoticeable. If I were them, for example, I would put the warning "English translations should be provided with any Chinese (characters or pinyin)" with big red Gothic font just above the entry field.

One more thing. I recommended a few times before that Chinesepod stuff members should put a small mark, such as "admin", in their avators so that newcomers can soon find who are teachers and administrators. I don't know why, but it seems to me that Chinesepod just doesn't want to do so.

Simple things often work well. Or, are they THAT difficult to do?

Preztellogic I am very surprised, disappointed and sad, to hear that using hanzi anywhere in Chinesepod posts is perceived as exclusionary.
If this is indeed the understanding that I was not aware of, then I do need to reconsider my participation here.

We do not get asked not to use hanzi in Newbie and Ele discussions; we are reminded to provide English translations with them. If anyone forgets to do so, as does happen (perhaps too often) do you put it down to an act of meanness? We may need to be a lot more considerate, but excluding--I don't think we are.

These last 2 comments strike me as comments made by subscribers in answer to poll questions, or in phone interviews.
I did not get this impression, and am not really seeing why you did.
I read John's blog post of course, before commenting here.

The same people posting over and over--I believe you have no ill will against me, a fellow Steely Dan fan, otherwise I might think your tone was hostile; I wish I didn't feel this way.

It's amazing just how differently different people see things.

Regarding "reputation" and "peer assessment", are we not doing this sufficiently already? When I see a contribution I find very helpful or enlightening I try to acknowledge it. We thank each other all the time, encourage each other, call attention to each other's erudition, insights and helpfulness. How could some systemized peer assessment be any better? I can see it being detrimental to the community spirit.

I for one don't see the benefits of testing (my level is quite apparent from which level of lessons I can listen to and get benefits from, no?), but apparently many others do, so that's great.

As to a reputation system, doesn't that make the prominent posters even more prominent? A newbie with no reputation getting into a discussion with lots of high-rep oldies seems like an even bigger hurdle to me. Can someone explain the benefits to me?

EDIT: Also, Pretzellogic: awesome post. Very well written.

A few comments:  

1.  In many ways I like the way the Community works at present, so I hope we don't 'throw the 贝贝 (baby) out with the 洗澡里的水 (bath water) .. BUT 

2.  Testing is a great idea (lacking at present.)  I just went to the Listening Test for the first time & no.. I don't see how it works - how does it give you a 'level'??).  That said, this should be approached with care.  Some of us are sensitive flowers and don't cope well with competition.  I think a clear purpose for testing should be stated - I would welcome it as a way of measuring my own progress.  I am less interested in seeing my results on a leader board!  (Unless they are like results posted at a Chinese university - I couldn't make head nor tail of them.)  

2A.  I would like to see an 'HSK class'.  Those who want to take the HSK given opportunity for appropriate self-testing.  (That just flew into my brain and out my fingers - it may be impractical.)  

3.  Reputation measures - this does look like fun.  I look forward to seeing concrete proposals on this.  Can we include 'peer assessments'?  Again, care required to avoid abuse of the system (eg. rules against 'reputation flaming'.  

4.  Threading - can be laborious to read, unless you are suggesting something as sophisticated as Gmail, which would be great.  

5.  Cliques - I have a liberal view on this.  They are a bit like 'cartels', inherently unstable (hope I'm not sounding like a nerd.)  Let's put it this way: 'bad' cliques will fall apart, be 'blown in the wind'.  Good cliques are a good idea.   

6.  I'd like a clear guide to using the Community function - an easily referenced 'instruction booklet'. So many questions come up over and over and over again.  Oh, that's me I'm talking about.    

What's the plan, John?  How long do you watch the ideas fly?  Can we expect some concrete proposals to comment on within a week or two at most?  

Hi everyone, i'm back from running. I'm sure everyone cares :0)

For everyone: John's original post specifically used the word clique. I cut/pasted below:

Here are some of the things we’re hearing:

• The search isn’t good enough; I can’t find certain discussions even when I’m pretty sure they’re there.
• With no history or bookmarking features, I find it hard to find useful discussions again.
• The discussions are too chaotic. We need threaded comment discussions like most forums have.
• Group discussions are too buried; they need to be made more central.
• Lesson discussions are often way too off-topic to be useful. I need help finding the content that helps me learn.
• The community discussion often feels like a clique. I don’t feel comfortable commenting.
• Lesson discussion, even on Newbie lessons, is way too advanced. I don’t feel comfortable commenting.

These last 2 comments strike me as comments made by subscribers in answer to poll questions, or in phone interviews.  I'll speak from my own experience (in high school, as the new kid in a new city) and say that I sure the hell do understand why new subscribers might think there are cliques.  The same people post over and over, and they talk comfortably about off topic things, and then they start using Chinese characters in newbie and ele lesson (extremely exclusionary). Further, when cpod staff periodically weigh in to ask people to cease and desist posting in Mandarin on newbie and ele lessons, they ignore them.  If i'm a new person, I don't care that maybe no one on this particular thread was guilty of writing mandarin characters on a newbie lesson discussion, I see it and get intimidated.

Additionally, not saying to a new person, "Hey, we don't want you to post", isnt' the same as an invitation to post (was that clear?). I know I haven't actively posted something along the lines of "what does someone who hasn't posted think about this", but I haven't seen anyone else do that either.

But on the other hand, Henning/simonpetterson, I do agree with you guys though regarding posting and the nature of the internet.  Frequent posters definitely add value by making the community vibrant, and exchanging ideas. I know i've made tons of off-topic comments, but thought i've added value here and there with some comments to address specific user concerns. And at the end of the day, the nature of the internet allows everyone to contribute, and you have to take initiative and participate.  My take is that this problem will not be solved by us users. If "cliques" are a problem, cpod staff need to weigh in visibly and regularly on the lesson discussions. I know I would welcome John/Jenny etc on the boards, and asking comments and feedback, and providing occasional adult supervision. Further, if cpod delegated the task of asking users to be level specific, I know I would think "look, hall monitor, this isn't junior high, and I can do what I want. Plus, i'm a paying subscriber like you, so drop dead"(I never said I was mature!).  But you guys are superbusy doing the other things us users yell at you that we want, and you don't have time.  So my take is that this "clique" issue will just come back after you take some action like gentle reminders about not posting in hanzi on lower level discussions.  

Lastly, I tried in my comments to address as many of the points that John raised in the blog about the community board.  Somehow, this discussion has predominately revolved around the "clique".  I sure there are other ideas out there to solve some of the other community board problems John raised on the blog to our satisfaction.

henning,

thanks mate for clearing that up :)

Baba,

her message was of course positive. It didn't sound like a complaint about people posting too much but rather an encouragement that other posters should join.

The silence-breakers were of course the heavy posters, usually not at all being at the newbie stage.

Ok,my last post was at the same time as several that just preceded it so I'd like to comment on several points raised and wanna take 'em in order.

Simonpetterson,

But if there are several sections to contribute in, that might be better.

..there are already multiple places to contribute.But I presume what you mean is on perhaps on the individual lessons,which comes back to threaded comments or better still if once again you had more options like selecting that you only want to see fellow newbies comments on it,or alternatively [what I personally would opt for] that you want to see all comments on it.

Because I've got to admit, there's a pretty high percentage of posts in Newbie and Elementary lesson discussions made by people with very advanced Chinese abilities

..firstly,knowing one's level has not been easy in the past so once again I applaud the pending ability to test this better [the old listening test I found was often not working].Secondly,I personally from the time I was a brandnew newbie have thought it was great when anyone like changye,with much higher ability was good enough to come and help out.But if some find this intimidating for whatever reason then ,as above,give them a tool to filter by level.Sure,great.Also,though I think I'm beyond newbie now,I do find you can still usually get something out of the lesson,whether it be just good revision/reinforcement,or often get at least a point or two somewhere along the way.

Henning,

That's very interesting about the complaints about heavy posters coming from the start back in 2006.I didn't know that.[That's nice to hear actually].What really surprises and confuses me is that Jenny was amongst those who complained.Talk about mixed messages.When I started it always seemed to be the case that posting was encouraged,and for reasons I couldn't fathom there was this ranking system in the community section of most frequent posters,but once again it implied that it was encouraged.Then there were the sock puppets.Then the whole tune of the place changed with the new comments policy,and suddenly the frequent posters were the bad guys ,and causing CPod headaches for getting too cosy.As I say,it seemed like mixed messages,or a management change or something.

Guess who broke the silence in those threads.

..ah,who??

zhen,

Agree.

John,

1% of 10,000 is 100.

100% of 20 is 20.

5 groups of 20 is 100.

How many groups you got in mind and what is this really achieving?

It's when users don't feel welcome or comfortable commenting that they start to call it a "clique."

..I would agree with this to a point.If people don't feel welcome or comfortable for signals of some sort put out by the perceived clique then yes,I agree.But if on the other hand everyone is welcomed and accepted ,and users feel that way for their own reasons,then I don't think people can be accused of having formed a clique.

"Inside information"

..whenever you join any social group of any form there is always going to be "inside information".I think all one has to do is ask and get involved if so inclined.It would only constitute a clique if this "inside information" was kept as a guarded secret.

"solve both the "total user to active user" ratio proble"

..why is this such a problem? What I mean is,there seems to be a presumption here that 100% or thereabouts want to be "active users".I wouldn't be inclined to make any such presumption.I think the only problem is if there are people that do want to get involved but feel there is something preventing them.So I'd like to know how many people you think are really in this latter category,what evidence you have for it [other than the odd sock puppet we've all seen].I can only presume like was commented above that you've been getting a hell of a lot of Private messages about it.Is that true? Which of their complaints are genuine and seem valid?

ps

zhenlijiang,hehe,we were posting at the same time I see and I see you've made a couple of points almost exactly the same as mine.

pps

Oh yeah,you're post zhen has reminded me of something else.Yeah,it was only just over a year ago that I was a brand new not only to this site ,but also [apart from a one week holiday with phrasebook in hand] brand new to Chinese.I never felt any of the things John is describing.I never felt excluded,like there was a clique,like my comments or questions weren't welcome.I was very impressed by the level of Chinese that fellow laowai were at and rather than being intimidated I felt inspired.It seemed such a warm and friendly community which was a real revelation for me and as you know one that I decided to embrace.So having been in exactly the same spot not so long ago,it's difficult to see these problems alluded to.

ppps

Great respect John.I realise it's your job to cater to the whole community and as always you're trying to make things better and better.Kudos to you.I'm just putting across my opinion of course. :)

John,
solve both the "total user to active user" ratio problem as well as the "inside information" perception problem
The "total user to active user" ratio is a problem--because?
I'm not fighting here, or trying to be difficult. I just don't accept that as a given, and would like to hear why you describe this ratio as a problem.

I've been hearing from other CPod staff for some time, that you really want to get more people involved. And I agree completely that it would be nice to see more folks here. I don't however know that there is a problem that needs solving.

What's the ratio btw, of disgruntled or dissatisfied customers among all lurkers? Of users content just to read and not comment, to all lurkers?

Baba,
Where is the evidence that people are being excluded in the CPod community?
Exactly how I feel.
Maybe I'm being insensitive? I don't know.
My posting comments almost from day one has nothing to do with confidence in Chinese ability; in fact I was so excited to see so many people I would be learning from here, and made my first post gushing about that. Obviously nothing, again, to do with insider status; I was new (still no veteran today)! 

I really don't buy the "clique" thing and here's why.A definition I looked up for it gives:

a small, exclusive group of people; coterie; set

..where I feel here the key word is "exclusive".Where is the evidence that people are being excluded in the CPod community? If people don't feel confident enough to post for whatever reason does that make it true that they are being excluded? If they make one comment and nobody responds does that mean they are being excluded? I don't think so.I'd say many of us make lots of comments that no-one responds to for various reasons [could include that ..ok,I know I was being lame there...fair enough no-one would respond,too busy to comment,point well made..nothing to add,..that's not an area that interests me,I don't know the answer to that,I think I know the answer to that but not too sure,I have no experience in this cultural point but I can't wait to read more posts from folk that do,etc,etc]. To reiterate ,I welcome one and all.

zhenlijiang, haha, the 15 minutes aren't over yet!

;P

@simonpettersson: Yes, that's what I mean. You've got some great ideas there, I think.

@bababardwan: It makes more sense to give some examples, I think.

If you have one big group of 10,000 users, you can reasonably expect to have only 1% or so "creators" starting threads and another 9% responding to those threads.  (In reality, the percentage may be far lower.)

If you have a small group of 20 users, it is much easier to push the percentage of actively contributing users beyond 10%. (This is all based on the 90-9-1 participation inequality principle.)

A group of "actively contributing users" doesn't necessarily constitute a "clique." It's when users don't feel welcome or comfortable commenting that they start to call it a "clique."  I think that it feels more like a clique when (1) a very small percentage of users are active, and (2) the active users are perceived to possess "inside information," whether it be linguistic (high level of Chinese) or experential (they've been around for a while).

Obviously, the clique claim is subjective, and it's not inevitable, but I think that categorizing conversations better into appropriate groups could help solve both the "total user to active user" ratio problem as well as the "inside information" perception problem.

Thoughts?

First of all, by asking questions users are making very valuable contributions. This is another reason it's not easy for me to relate to the hesitation.

If our teachers were not so busy I'm sure they would swoop down and give prompt answers to all our questions, but they obviously can't can they, there are just so many questions and too few hands free enough to take care of them.

If the more knowledgeable poddies can help and they offer to, isn't that welcomed? Sometimes we'll see trial-week native speakers kindly try to help and they often may not be familiar with the custom to use pinyin and English translations etc. in Newbie and Ele discussions. But I really only see considerate and thoughtful helpers around here.

Even if a user considers himself lower-level, if he has a thought to share (not a question), I really don't see why he should not share with us all. If he teaches us something we don't know, we gain knowledge.
If it is a misconception he has, chances are it is a common mistake that can be discussed and thus be very helpful to many poddies. There's no need for anybody to be embarrassed about that. In fact, since the podcasts couldn't cover all such points, a lesson would really only be complete with such discussion on the boards.

Uh Henning, wasn't Jenny like in middle school, in 1996?
(Ah you've corrected it now. But I'm leaving this up!)

Complaints about the group of heavy posters have been going on since the day I came here. I think that it was 2006 in the first or the second Saturday show (!) that Jenny complained that we always see the same names in the comments (during that Triassic era of CPod: Lantian, Bazza,...).

Several attempts have been made to explicitly hear the voices of the "lurkers", e.g. posts by Ken directed at senior business professionals or at the silent Newbie majority (in old times in the blog, later in the Community section). Guess who broke the silence in those threads.

Oh yes, everything used to be better. But that is an invariant that is applied regardless of context and epoche. I still prefer to live today.

BTW: There are also some indicators that show that splitting might be a bad idea. Once, there even was a different site set up for the advanced levels (zh.chinesepod.com). That really hurted the community and CPod as a whole.

I think that the "clique" thing is something I've seen in every forum I've ever been part of. It's How the Internet Works. However, subdividing into different sections seems really good. If we get everyone to be active in the Community section, posts will fly by in a flurry. That won't work. But if there are several sections to contribute in, that might be better. Because I've got to admit, there's a pretty high percentage of posts in Newbie and Elementary lesson discussions made by people with very advanced Chinese abilities. Maybe these subgroups can be based on level?

Here's my thought: I think most of the users that are hesitant to post are Newbie and Elementary. And I think the reason they don't feel like posting is because they don't feel like they can contribute. Someone might pose a question, and besides the staff, there are lots of very proficient users who can answer it. Why should I, a mere Newbie, give my thoughts?

Of course, then you might sometimes see some advanced posters answering with examples that use lots of difficult characters and words, since they, unlike the staff, are unused to lowering the level of Chinese that they use to a suitable level.

Buh, that's a long rant. But there you go. Some things to consider, maybe.

John,

I must say I really can't follow your last post.Several things confuse me about it.Perhaps the thing that confused me more than anything was:

"and could do a lot to create smaller, more active sub-communities."

..I may have the wrong take on this altogether,but to me that's sounding awfully like a clique.Compare this with the current situation where anyone can join in any conversation and they are encouraged to do so by one and all.I like the feel of one big community where all are welcome.The more the merrier to the one big party I say.

btw,

Oh, I don't like the idea of 'grading' users in any kind of hierarchy.

..completely agree [actually completely agree with your whole post tal;well said].Once again this to me seem to bring us closer to the thing you guys seem to want to avoid.

thanks Henning for your always valuable input.Well said and great to get the perspective of a veteran.

Henning says:

If I look back, there has always been a group of heavy posters - although that group changed over time. In fact, the group that is most active now is totally different from that 3 years ago.

That's certainly the impression one gets when reading through old comments threads. And so, if I'm understanding this right, there's always been a "clique", but it's only recently that some people call it that and complain about it.

As for me, I'm a relative newcomer to Chinesepod. But when I first discovered it, I was inspired by and admired the regular gang on the comments threads. (changye, henning, bazza, mikeinewshot, auntie sue, etc. Of course at that time there also seems to have been much more personal interaction on the boards between poddies and staff. You'd see frequent posts from Jenny and John, and err... Amber of course. Since pete left staff participation on the boards is sparse to say the least. A deliberate policy no doubt.) I loved the community feeling, the warmth, the feeling of shared interest and enthusiasm. I wanted to be part of it, and it definitely spurred my learning. Just my own personal view of course.

Oh, I don't like the idea of 'grading' users in any kind of hierarchy.

Wow, so much productive discussion already!  This is great to see.

Regarding "cliques" and such, one possible solution is to do more with groups.  The internet has shown us a general trend in online communities: the bigger the group, the lower the percentage of active commenters.

You could view the individual user posts as a huge "general discussion" group.  What if this group was broken down by level, and users were able to join any and all relevant groups, then choose which groups display on the Community page (similar to xiaophil's and pretzellogic's ideas)?  All this is possible, and could do a lot to create smaller, more active sub-communities.

We're not looking to "punish" anyone, we're trying to find ways to make everyone comfortable, and make it possible to channel discussion toward those that need/want it.

My apologies Henning, I read over a bit more carefully and see you weren't necessarily saying that I considered the presence of heavy using posters to be negative, only that you gathered there was that feeling from my post and pretzellogic's.

Thanks for sharing your veteran observations.

Henning, me? No. I never considered a group of heavy posting users negative. Apparently some people do (I personally have only seen sock-puppet types complain about that on the boards, but perhaps genuine users are giving that feedback to CPod staff privately?).

Like I've said elsewhere before, my wishing for more unique participants and more diversity does not mean I wish to see less of the most frequent posters.

I do not understand the reasons some people never post. With Japanese users I suspect it has a lot to do with confidence in their English ability (you guys should come post in Chinese then, in Intermediate and higher lesson discussions!). I do review my own behavior to see if there is anything I could be doing (this thinking is probably really Japanese of me) to make a difference. Like I said above, I don't think my presence makes any difference either way.

You know my "suggestion" of that experiment was a way of saying that the frequent posters are no 罪魁祸首.

And of course posting is not exclusive and anybody can join in.

I'm still not seeing a clique here!

Pretzellogic:
I think the way to get "how to use the words" is to get some method of studying entire sentences, not just words. John has previously said that's in the works, but there are some other vocabulary tool changes with priority (non-flash and SRS, as I recall). I for one am anticipating this, as I am now adding the sentences manually.

John:
I'm just pulling stuff out of my derrière here, but here's an idea for keeping discussions focused while not clamping down on freedom of speech: Set up a checkbox for indicating that your post is off topic for the conversation. Then, at the top, have a simple button for deciding whether or not you want to display off-topic comments. This would allow off-topic jabber to continue while allowing people who just want the relevant info to get it without having to filter out a bunch of jibberjabber.

zhenlijiang, pretzellogic
I figured from your posts that a group of heavy posting users is considered negative.

But is it really? Posting is not exclusive and anybody can join in (and the large number of contributing people supports this).

If I look back, there has always been a group of heavy posters - although that group changed over time. In fact, the group that is most active now is totally different from that 3 years ago.

I think that experiment zhenlijiang suggests will have a clear result: If the "clique" doesn't post, nobody will. The community section would become much more intimidating because it would evoke the impression that only high-level and well-prepared language questions are welcome. The community would be dead in no time.

Let's face it, the heart of the "community" is the "clique".

Following the transition to the new AMS, we’ve been doing a lot of work to get our data in better order (which enables us to do more with it), and to improve and streamline the lesson creation process (which makes work more enjoyable and efficient for our hard-working staff).

One of the things Ken periodically says is that, "it's not how many words you know, but how to use the words you know in different contexts". In the future, i'd love to see cpod actually know how many contexts its taught us, so that it can stress the undertaught contexts in future lessons. The Qing Wens offer insight into this.  There are about 121 QWs, but maybe 100 of them are on separate topics.  It would be nice for cpod to get in the habit of teaching us the contexts in lessons over and over again, so that we could memorize correctly the form and format with different words.

Could someone who has seen the Community long enough to evaluate, point out roughly when it was that this "clique feel" emerged (assuming there were "better days" when no such thing existed, if we all accept that there is such a feel)? What factors could such a "change" be attributed to?

I think this is worth analyzing objectively if we are going to address cliquey feels.
Not talking here about pointing fingers.

I have said repeatedly that I would like to see more diversity on the boards (many more "unique" participants).
I happen to be one of the most frequent posters, and do realize that a hard look at my own comments would show a great part of them not  describable as contributions to learning Chinese. Actually I am always concerned about hogging too much space on the boards (I know it doesn't look that way. I do edit and try to keep my comments as short as possible. Yes I know it doesn't look that way.). I feel apologetic for repeated appearances (but a little less so when talking about something I feel very strongly about). I do hold back. And I have experimented with holding back to see if more people felt more like commenting during those couple of days (result--not that I could see.).

I understand CPod is getting feedback from users (genuine I assume, as well as sock puppets) about a clique feel, and if anything is making people feel uncomfortable with participating we need to pay attention and address the problem. From my experiments with holding back and from my observation, to be honest I don't think we the most frequent posters are the problem.

However, if all the, say dozen most frequent non-staff posters held back at once, for a full day or two, then I guess we're likely to see different results, see new people come up to fill the space.
Shall we try that once, and see?

If filtering can be made to work I would be much more in favor of that, than limiting users to a max number of posts per lesson or otherwise trying to control user conduct.

hehe,in the Yahoo Reputation Pattern link you provided I thought the named levels was funny.I'm just glad it stopped at fanatic,and didn't add in a lunatic category,though given lunatic has a monthly implication,even that may have represented a stopping short.

But seriously,I like the above suggestions that offer a more customisable approach,including the ability for others to block viewing your posts.

John,
testing might not excite everyone, but it surely does excite some of us - at least those of us who like games with personal high scores!

Cool stuff, looking forward to it.

I think you should make an official place for people seeking language exchange.  I have met some Chinese people through Chinesepod that I am glad I met, and it seems a fair number of Chinese people want to meet poddies.  So, I think this is a legitimate activity, but needs a place so that it doesn't interfere with other discussions.

2 bits

cpod might be evolving toward this idea anyway, but cpod could try a "platform" approach to the entire Community section. By that, I mean that the GUI would be user customizable, and would be set to individual user preferences upon user login.  Each user would be able to see a basic set of options, and would be able to "drag and drop" items like "favorite posts", "my other posts", "related conversations" and so on into the areas they designate.

John,

You said some people say this:

The discussions are too chaotic. We need threaded comment discussions like most forums have.

If by this they mean creating a way to single out (or filter out) questions, feedback and/or off-topic jibber-jabber, I am behind them 100%.  I firmly believe that CPod cannot effectively police comments, nor do I believe all commenters have the self-control to avoid going on tangets (i.e. me, amongst others).  It would really be great to have a reasonable system for users to fitler comments.  In this way we can say what we want to say and see what we want to see.

Thanks John !

Improved testing would be great.

Can the testing be expanded to include the other skill sets ?  The listening test gives the learner an approximate indication of their comprehension level.

But what about reading, writing and speaking ? I realize you have the flashcards, which give some feedback. But it doesn't really show the learner what level they are at or how much progress has been made.

Perhaps develop a "report card" section for poddies that tabulates a score for each area ? And is updated after each test.

Keep up the great work.

great ideas on the blog.  some thoughts

• A reminder that bodawei suggested renaming/relinking in some way the cpod blog to "cpod developments" "cpod announcements" so that these announcements stay current and relevant.  I also liked that idea.

• Regarding the "clique" feel to some of the lesson discussions, Limit lesson posts to 2-3 per person, unless some way can be found to automate limiting off-topic discussions.

• Regarding the "clique" feel to some of the lesson posts, maybe having one of the staff make a periodic entry into the lesson discussion to specifically ask for comments from people that haven't posted yet.  Some way needs to be found to automate this.  Much like during class when a professor/teacher would ask if there are other comments in the room, and then the frequent talkers can back off on their discussions without cpod being the "off-topic discussion police".

• create a section just below the "john's other posts" section called, "Stuff/links I want to remember".  This can be the area where poddies can create their own links for display to themselves and not have stuff losts, like grammar discussions or so on. Cpod could possibly enable this by creating an internal bookmark capability on the cpod site to do this. Another option is to enable Firefox or IE bookmark capabilities to be exported to this section.

• Create placement tests (replacement for the listening test)
• Create level tests (how would you fare on a test of all Intermediate lessons, with content randomly selected?)

Testing does not excite everyone, but it does provide one very valuable piece of information: an indicator of progress. ChinesePod is working hard on a better system for organizing lessons, presenting courses, and tracking learner progress. The new system is much better equipped to handle the “testing” aspect.

Wow.This is fantastic news John.Thanks so much for listening.I can't wait to hear more on this...when available,more details etc.When there is talk of replacing the listening test ,I'm presuming there will still be a listening component but that testing will just be more rounded.It will also be helpful if testing identified a number of things,such as breakdown for how one does in the various areas.eg one might be at Intermediate for listening comprehension,upper ellie for vocab,newbie for writing ability [if that is indeed tested..obviously a lower priority area for most].What would be even more helpful ,though I'm not sure how easy it would be,would be once holes in say vocab were identified ,if the feedback then formulated a suggested series of lessons to fill those holes.Gotta go.Thanks CPod. :)