Why Chinese Mothers are Superior

Thanks a lot. Nice avatar!

Let's just say that from my experience, an overwhelming amount of Asian parents (yes, I'm diversifying a bit here) do indeed choose the piano. I remember very distinctly a time when I went to a talent show where half of it was piano performances.

I was about to agree with you 100% about the violin/piano thing. Then I thought that out of 1.4 billion people, that at least a couple of them are doing something odd (lets say the accordion). The Beijing Symphony Orchestra should have a few kids whose parents let them play something else other than piano or violin. And of course, if you believe their biographies on their website, Chinese people do play flute, oboe, clarinet and so on. Of course, there are plenty of Chinese guitar, sax, and other players around, at least at the clubs i've been to/read about. Still looking for an Chinese accordion or bagpipe player. :-)

My classes are exclusively for foreigners. We're handled differently from the local population.

I'm confused ..

'counterparts' - if you are in a course at a Chinese university why don't you and your 'counterparts' have the same classes?

In Australia it would be called a long essay.

Different schools handle things in different ways. I'm a senior, and I have classes until May. But my Chinese counterparts at the same school finished a couple of months ago.

Yeah, I looked up 论文 in my dictionary before writing the post and struggled over how to translate it. It's really supposed to be a research project similar to a dissertation (have to defend it before a panel and everything), but it is of course significantly smaller than what a Masters or Ph.D. student would do. And from what I understand, everyone passes the defense (答辩) no matter how badly they do. Unless they have enemies on the panel, that is!

hi light, just had another look at your post above and I wonder if you are relying on what you are told by people in hostels when you are travelling? These are really atypical Chinese kids .. I wonder if given all the contact they have with foreigners that they are aspiring to the 'gap year' concept? More an aspirational thing, involving kids who are inspired by the Western lifestyle. In my experience living here I meet a lot of young people in this age group - while quite a number are curious about the foreign lifestyle, but this does not mean that they actually do anything about it. Not yet, of course life styles are changing rapidly in China, no doubt about that. If the practice was in any way 'traditional' there would be a Chinese expression for it: have you heard it discussed in Chinese?

Ha ha, ewilc773, you have made a pretty good insight on this matter, although I hasten to add this doesn't happen where I teach. :) Actually I don't teach 4th years in the Spring semester, you are right there. Even in the Autumn semester they are hard to find, the lucky ones have jobs already, the others are at job interviews, learning to drive, doing their CETs blah blah. The 论文 are for undergrads; it should not really translate as thesis or dissertation, should it? More a long essay.

A factor in all of this that might be mixing up the discussion is the fact that *un-graduated college seniors* typically have no classes past November. The idea is that they're supposed to be working on their 论文 (dissertation for undergrad; working on mine now) and doing internships. Since lots (most?) students plagiarize the paper and never do an internship, in my experience, these students often are:

1. Actively seeking a full-time job

2. Actively working a full-time job

3. Actively playing Plants vs. Zombies in their dorm rooms morning till night

Some of them go home and stay with their parents until graduation.

"city-slicker-rich-kid thing".. nope.. not at all.

Anyway, just want to re-iterate, this is my experience and what has been explained to me by the people I have met in my travels. I may have misunderstood in the broken English vs. broken Chinese exchanges over the years but it certainly is unrealistic by western standards..

Right. Otherwise what's this lesson all about--?

Perhaps it's the unfortunate ones on the hiatus? That would seem to make the most sense. Who wouldn't take a city job offer, given the scarcity of them (based on your descriptions)? And with loans to pay off, that makes finding a job even more of a serious matter.

"Most seniors I know are in hysterics about fiding a job" - now that sounds more realistic.

Not by a long shot. I have a friend whose family borrowed 50,000 yuan for her education, which is a huge amount of money for a family that has a combined income (4 jobs) of less than 1,500 a month.

Her case is by no means abnormal. I know someone else whose family is even poorer, and after several years of being a graduate, she still had 18,000 to pay off.

For the graduates fortunate enough to get a Shanghai / Beijing / Shenzhen salary, it's quite manageable. But not everyone is that fortunate.

I've never heard of this post-graduation break. Maybe it's a city-slicker-rich-kid thing, and most of the people I know just don't have the means. Most of the seniors I know are in hysterics about finding a job.

True, but for a controversial book like this it would be good to get input from someone who has actually gone through the original work. The author herself has said that the WSJ summary misrepresents her.

My wife and I read the WSJ summary tonight, and quite honestly it wasn't as shocking as I was expecting. There are a few things I think are outright wrong for a parent to do, but overall she's got a valid point. I can say from my own experience that in the past few decades, parenting in the U.S. has gone down the drain. When I was young, my dad served on a school board for a few years. At first he enjoyed it. But a few years later, he left in disgust. Not because the kids were bad. That he could deal with. Rather, any time the school tried to enforce any kind of discipline or academic standards, there was increasingly fierce opposition from the parents. My brother went there a few years later and said the place was pretty much a disaster area.

That's what reviewers are for. :)

Hi light

This after graduation 'hiatus' thing is something that I have not come across. I systematically talk to my students about what they do after graduation and in a sample of about 250 students over the past 18 months I cannot remember anyone saying that they planned a hiatus. The problem with fourth year students is that they are so focused on getting a job (interviews and so on) they find it difficult to get to class. I'm wondering if you are relying on the views of just one or two people that you met who might be in unusual circumstances?

I have met a few people taking a rest during their course - all mention the stress and not coping with the pressure. This is more like sick leave.

I have had one student who had a hiatus (gap year) before he started uni - it's quite rare.

It's not so much about "taking time off" as such.. as it is about the tradition of it.. Like here in Australia, the norm/tradition is: School to Work/Uni, if Uni then to work. The norm in China appears to include that hiatus as if it was an essential/integral part of the growing up progression.. which I sincerely believe it does. Many students, even uni students, in China seem to have little to no society skills outside of their student groups.. Just as with the "Tiger Mother" thing, it's ALL about study and nothing else.. so this after-uni thing is the time when society/social skills are learned... if you know what I mean..

Thanks for the explanation. The concept of taking a break post-graduation doesn't sound too weird...I knew of a few folks who did that here in the US. But for 1 year (or more)? That's awesome - I would have loved to have taken that much time off.

I'm curious as to what leads to this behavior, as it doesn't seem to be the norm given my interactions with 40's and 50 year old chinese folks here in the US They tell me they picked their major first year in college and you couldn't change it. And that they generally got married within 2 years of graduating.

Moreover, are jobs easy to land after 1-2 years just "hanging out"?

In Beijing, my tour guide said most young chinese today follow "DINK" which stands for Double Income No Kids.

Hrmm.. all the young people I see/meet in China, when I go there, are those who are travelling around to see China themselves. The rest of them are on their "after university" hiatus, which is a weird concept really..

The way I understand it is like this: After you have finished high school, you go to college/university. Then after you finish uni, rather than immediately going into full-time work, you spend a year.. two years.. or whatever either exploring China or generally not doing much other than rubbing shoulders with other young people around China. It is during this time that a lot of connections, friendships and relationships are made. Some of the richer ex-students are able to fly to other countries and do basically the same thing. During this time there is no real thoughts of what work they are going to be doing, nor of what studies they just finished. It is a time of socialising.. or more precisely, social networking.

So at any given time, there will be a lot of young people around who don't seem to be doing much.. they're not really working, other than part-time jobs to pay for food/rent (usually in youth hostels).. and they're not studying either..

In the west of course, one finishes university/college and the goes immediately into full-time work.. unless you are rich and then you might spend 6 months to 12 months travelling around Europe/USA/Asia... but then it's straight into work. The reasoning for this travel is not the same as I have witnessed in China.

I may have totally misunderstood the whole concept of course.. but that's what it appeared like to me and from what I understood from the explanations I was given.

"children are raised in an extended family (they refer to 'weekend' parents - those that see their kids on the weekend)"

I also see this in Taiwan. A woman I work with has a baby, her parents take care of the baby during the week. My coworker lives in Taipei, her parents live in Taoyuan (about a 45 minute drive), so she only sees her newborn on Saturday and Sunday! That blows my mind. I've been told this is very common.

Also, when kids are in school, many go to live with the grandparents during summer break. So mommy and daddy get a nice 2 month break. Now that I think is good for the parents' sanity!

So in these cases, who is really rearing the child?

It already did...

http://chinesepod.com/lessons/child-parent-fight/dialogue

"The author is a professor at Yale Law School. I don't know if she is the best person to express what goes on in the typical Chinese mother's mind."

Yes, if you read Amy Chua's article, then read the two rebuttals, you notice that all three women (despite immigrant/low income upbringing), are likely well educated, well off people (that live in comfortably sized American houses). I've noticed that China has a broad spectrum of incomes (just like the US).

I am not sure I agree with being corrupted by Western values. The media here is pretty regulated. I think the reason is one child policy and families going from poor to well off within a generation. I see so many extremely overweight Chinese kids that are so spoiled its ridiculous. I think the parents are giving them things that they were not able to have as kids. I am sure that there are parents on the other end of the spectrum as well

Front the link: Something I believe hardly ever gets said

- zhao wrote:

sometimes… oversea chinese are more “chinese” than chinese live in china. china is being corrupted by western values while oversea chinese holding on these values to remind themselves being “chinese”….

*******

Amy Chua on traditional Chinese standards "failed" as a mother, giving her family not one son, but two daughters. (I disagree with this traditional view.)

Finally Amy Chua is from Hokka, one of the hardest working "tribes" in China.

China nowadays, is being corrupted by Western media without the benefit of a stable core. Overseas ethnic Chinese in many ways are have kept traditional values. I find this particularly galling given the way the Chinese language divides overseas ethnic Chinese into 华裔 and 华侨.

I spoke with one of my Chinese friends about the article this weekend (she also recently became a mother). She said her mother was very strict and hit her when she wouldn't practice piano (her piano teacher hit her too). The plus side is that she plays beautifully now. She also said she had health problems towards the end of high school (she was working so hard she wasn't eating much, was totally stressed about exams). She doesn't plan on using the same methods with her daughter.

Other people I have spoken to about this article say that while they may have resented being criticized and treated strictly as children, they now credit their success in adulthood to their mothers. I think it's hard to paint in such broad strokes. All western parents aren't the same and all Chinese parents aren't the same... Definitely an article that provoked a lot of discussion and reflection though.

Funny you should ask. There was another WSJ article mentioning how Amy Chua's article is being received in China. Apparently it's a mix of "strictness is necessary" to "this mother has abandoned the teachings of her ancestors"...

http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2011/01/15/tiger-mother-chua-gets-mixed-reviews-in-china/

Of course, there was plenty of disagreement with Amy Chua also. The journal published this article from a mother having her own disagreements with methods, if not results.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703333504576080422577800488.html?mod=WSJASIA_newsreel_lifeStyle

My take was that she's trying to sell her own book, and this inflammatory title is going to be a great way to promote her own book. I suspect Yale Law professors are under the same amount of pressure to publish as their peers, so this firestorm of comments (good and bad) are going to do great for book sales. Sounds like it's been great for the Wall Street Journal.

I'm thinking a Chinese mother would have killed me also. I might have done the piano thing after awhile, but then I would have taken a hard turn toward jazz, and she would have killed me and herself :-)