Sentence Help
hamshank
June 04, 2011, 06:04 AM posted in General DiscussionHello everyone...I was hoping someone may be able to shed some light on the use of 的 when it is linking two really long phrases together.
From my understanding, the function does not change but I keep coming across long sentences that I cannot seem to wrap my brain around.
Take this for example
目前有包括皇馬和巴塞隆納等豪門在內的多家歐洲大牌俱樂部都想要引進內馬爾
My rough tanslation
Prensently, many of europes top clubs would like to bid for Nuer, including the giants Real Madrid and Barcelona.
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What I can't understand is what is the 的 attributing to what?
From the section before the 的 we have 皇馬和巴塞隆納等豪門在內 - Literally = Real Madrid and Barlcelona giants include
Then after we have 多家歐洲大牌俱樂部都想要引進內馬爾 which is literally - many families europe top clubs would like introduce Nuer
If I take my first instinct of Real Madrid and Barcelona being attributed to the top european clubs then my translation would change to;
Presently, the giants of Europes top clubs Real Madrid and Barcelona would like to speak to Nuer.
I would apprecate it if anyone has some wisdom to part on this one.
Cheers
zhenlijiang
June 04, 2011, 08:52 AMIs this a Chinese-original sentence Hamshank? Just wondered, if it could be a translated-from-English one. Anyway here's how I see it:
目前有包括皇馬和巴塞隆納等豪門在內的多家歐洲大牌俱樂部都想要引進內馬爾
目前有 -- Currently there are
包括皇馬和巴塞隆納等豪門在內的 -- (I didn't know 包括在内 though of course it makes perfect sense. I'd only known 包括~ for "including ~". ) such giants as Real Madrid and Barcelona included
多家歐洲大牌俱樂部 -- numerous top European clubs
都想要引進內馬爾 -- (all) would like to bid for Neymar
目前有多家歐洲大牌俱樂部都想要引進內馬爾
Currently there are numerous top European clubs that would like to bid for Neymar.
目前有包括皇馬和巴塞隆納等豪門在內的多家歐洲大牌俱樂部都想要引進內馬爾
Currently (there are) numerous top European clubs (that) would like to bid for Neymar, such giants as Real Madrid and Barcelona included.
So your rough translation is good I think. I think the nuance with "included" is "even such giants as Real Madrid and Barcelona".
The 包括皇馬和巴塞隆納等豪門在內的 is modifying 多家歐洲大牌俱樂部--but in English it's natural isn't it, to separate the two and form the sentence like I did above. Sorry, I'm pretty hazy about the use and meaning of "attributing X to Y" which is why I say "modify".
It does look to me though, like your bafflement with this sentence actually has more to do with the 包括在內 than the 的. Does this help answer your question any?
hamshank
Hi Zhenlijiang,
First of all thank you for having a look at it!
Secondly, I stand corrected. It is more than likely that I got it wrong. Neymar is much more likely to be the footballer in question.
Thirdly :), you are probably right again. I assume this article was probably translated from an English article since Football is not one of the biggest sports in Taiwan.
As for the translation. The 包括在內 is a little confusing because it uses "include" twice but the thing I cannot see is why the 的 is needed in this sentence and what is it doing to link the two.
for example, take the following example 藍色的車 --》Simply, we are applying the colour blue to a car....But in this sentence, Barcelona and Real Madrid seem separate to the OTHER European clubs wanting to make a bid so why link them with a 的？？？Yes they are European and both top clubs but if I was attribututing them to Europe I would expect a translation of something more along the lines of "European giants real and Barca"
I guess my main concern is what is the role of 的 in this sentence? Since both parts before and after the 的 are so long, how does a Chinese person remember all that was said before and all that was said after and then link it together in a logical manner??!?!
Maybe an interesting question would be, how would you translate it is the 的 was missing?
目前有包括皇馬和巴塞隆納等豪門在內 ??? 多家歐洲大牌俱樂部都想要引進內馬爾
I really appreciate you trying to help.
zhenlijiang
June 04, 2011, 03:00 PMYou're welcome! Mmm that's why I wondered, and now suspect this of being a Chinese translation of a sentence written in English. It just feels like English to me, and it seems like part of the trouble with this sentence is just that, that it's not written in the most intuitive Chinese manner.
Going back to your original question, that's right, the role of 的 in this sentence is the same as in, say, 我买的东西. But we can't take just the "Real and Barca" out of this 包括~在内 clause and try to find what they might be attributed to (still not sure here, what we mean by attributing X to Y" ...).
包括皇馬和巴塞隆納等豪門在內的多家歐洲大牌俱樂部 would be the subject of this sentence, attributives modifiers and all. Strip it of all attributives and we're left with the core: 俱樂部. What kind of clubs--? Big-name clubs. Big-name European clubs. A great number of big-name European clubs. A great number of big-name European clubs including such powerhouses as Real and Barca. That's what the 的 is doing there. Without it, I would conclude that something was missing and put off attempting to translate the sentence. Again, I suspect this Chinese of being the translation of an English sentence like Currently (there are) numerous top European clubs (that) would like to bid for Neymar, such giants as Real Madrid and Barcelona included.
I think 包括在内 is like saying included inside, rather than saying "included" twice.
http://www.nciku.com/search/en/detail/included/1706774
http://www.nciku.com/search/zh/detail/%E5%8C%85%E6%8B%AC%E5%9C%A8%E5%86%85%E7%9A%84/145619
Is this any better?
hamshank
Yeah, I guess I am starting to see the link between...Maybe I am just thinking about it too much.
I don't think I would be able to replicate it correctly but as you say, it may not be the best source of accuracy being that I am trying to translate a translation!
Thanks again for helping out.
zhenlijiang
Don't give up just yet, someone else may still come by to give a better explanation. If you run into more of these sentences hard to wrap your head around maybe you can post them again.
hamshank
Thanks I will do....
It is not the first one I have seen like this so I doubt it will be long before I have another to post!
:)
zhenlijiang
Sorry Hamshank I think I may have lied to you. Not too sure now about the subject of that sentence. It may be 目前 actually ...
hamshank
No problem....These things are always up for debate. Personally, I think the subject of the sentence in this case would be Neymar...
Actually, I have a little update regarding this sentence. I was talking to a friend about it the other day and he proposed that the 的 is linked only to the 在內 before it and not to worry too much about the phrase of Real/Barca as these are optional extra bits of information。。。
He gave me an example of 圓圈在內的東西都是你的。。
If I compare this to my example, I can see that the place and objects are reversed but broken down, the feeling seems similar.
圓圈 在內 的 東西 都 是 你的
(Place) (Proposition) (Object) (Subject)
皇馬和巴塞隆納 在內的 歐洲大牌俱樂部 內馬爾
(Objects - Kind of!) (Preposition) (Place) (Subject)
zhenlijiang
June 04, 2011, 07:05 AMHi Hamshank, before I try to parse the sentence (I love these puzzles), I was wondering how you got Nuer from 馬爾, then realized the 內 is part of the name, which is Neymar. Never heard of him myself but apparently he's only the latest 神童 from Brazil.