Deciding between也 and 和

akalovid
March 30, 2013, 04:46 PM posted in I Have a Question

Hello, everyone,

I am totally confused about why the following sentence has yě and not hé in it:

他們都很聰明也很努力, 所以 Peter 說:"XYZ"

tāmen dōu hěn cōngmíng yě hěn nǔlì, suǒyǐ Peter shuō: "XYZ"

This was my question. The rest is trying to explain why it confuses me.

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I have revisited the topic of how to decide between 還, 也, 和 a hundered times, but I keep making mistakes. I have become used to the following patterns:

A. Comparing different subject (yě)

我畢業了. 我弟弟也畢業了.

Wǒ bìyè le. Wǒ dìdi yě bìyè le.

I graduated. My little brother also did.

 

B.Object of fixed verb varies(hái)

我有咖啡, 還有茶.

Wǒ yǒu kafēi, háiyǒu chá.

I have coffee. I also have tea.

 

C. Connecting equal terms(hé)

子产如此聪明善良至今中国老百姓都非常尊崇。(From yǒudào)

Zi Chan was so smart and so kind that Chinese people still honor him today.

 

Now, I wanted to write the centence:

"They all were clever and hard working, therefore Peter said XYZ ".

My try was:

他們都很聰明和很努力, 所以 Peter 說:"XYZ"

tāmen dōu hěn cōngmíng hé hěn nǔlì, suǒyǐ Peter shuō: "XYZ"

Apparently it should be

他們都很聰明也很努力, 所以 Peter 說:"XYZ"

tāmen dōu hěn cōngmíng yě hěn nǔlì, suǒyǐ Peter shuō: "XYZ"

 

 

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Right-Wingnut
March 31, 2013, 12:54 AM

This might be an oversimplification, so I am prepared to be corrected:

和 is used to connect nouns.

还 meaning 'and' or 'also' is used to connect verbs. It can also connect adjectives, but then it takes the meaning of 'still'.

也 is used to connect verbs or adjectives, or even a verb with an adjective

So the only confusion is whether to use 也 or 还 when connecting two verbs. This is where I'll need someone else's input.

However in your final example you are connecting two adjectives, so the only choice is 也.

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akalovid

Thank you, this would clarify everything, but it would also make the sentence from 有道 wrong:

子产是如此的聪明和善良,至今中国的老百姓都非常尊崇他。(From yǒudào)

Furtehrmore, I've seen many sentences like this:

他们通宵喝酒、唱歌和跳舞。

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Right-Wingnut

Is the 是 in your example part of the 是...的 pattern? I'm guessing it must be, as there is no intensifier like 很 which typically precedes adjectives. If I say 他是聪明的, isn't 聪明的 being treated as a noun, as a substitute for 聪明的人. Throwing away the rubbish, isn't your sentence basically 子产是聪明和善良的. I'm pretty sure you couldn't say 子产很聪明和善良.

With regard to your second example, I have all CPod Intermediate lessons in one Word file, and I just did a search for 和 in all lessons since the start of 2009. Not once in more than 4 years of lessons was 和 used to link verbs. So if that is a correct sentence then it is a big omission by CPod. However your sentence does seem to make sense to me, probably because it contains a straight list, and each of the verb-complement pairs can be thought of as an activity (a noun), like: drinking, singing and dancing. But where did you find that sentence (and the many others)?

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akalovid

Sorry, I can't tell you whether it's the 是...的 pattern! I think you are much more advanced than I am. It would make sense.

It might be that I am always wrong when it appears to me that 和 connects verbs. I admit that to me it is always very unclear what is a verb, noun or adjective in Chinese.

As for the sentences, I wish I had recorded all of them yesterday. Most of them where from youdao. Does youdao contain errors? The one I citet was from this site:

http://studymorechinese.com/forum/topics/question-on-conjunctions-he

From youdao

(http://dict.youdao.com/search?le=eng&q=play%20and&keyfrom=dict.top):

a)我们是学生,我们也是人,我们需要一些空闲时间玩耍和休息

(http://dict.youdao.com/search?le=eng&q=lj%3Acry%20and&keyfrom=dict.index)

a)我什么都不做——只是哭泣和回忆。

b)节目中的虚情假意也太过类似:烟雾效果和镜子,故作紧张的音乐以及多次排练的哭泣和大笑环节

(http://dict.youdao.com/search?le=eng&q=lj%3Aeat%2C%20pray&keyfrom=dict.top)

还有一位叫伊丽莎白·姬尔波特----《美食、祈祷和恋爱》的作者。

Am I perhaps wrong in identifying 玩耍, 休息 as verbs in the first youdao example? In the second example it could be a shi...de pattern, right?

Please note, I am not trying to argue anything, I am only trying to reconcile the sentences I find with some pattern. Additionally, my Chinese is very poor. If everything turns out to fit into the pattern you mentioned, I will be very happy.

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Right-Wingnut

I'm not claiming to be right here either. And I'm certainly not advanced - I'm still working my way through the Intermediate lessons. However I know that

他們都很聰明和很努力, 所以 Peter 說:"XYZ"

just sounds wrong. The rules I gave were simply from experience, and I was trying to see how far I could defend these rules before they snapped.

I don't have time to read through your examples today, but I'll give it a rethink next chance I get. I hadn't come across youdao before, so I cannot comment on how reliable they are - I suspect that there is no problem with their sentences and that its my rules which need tweaking.

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akalovid

My guess would be, that my sentences belong to some weird subgroup, because your argument about searching the Chinesepod lessons is very strong. Since I am pretty confused, I would appreciate a CPod person clarifying this ;)