Deciding between也 and 和

akalovid

March 30, 2013, 04:46 PM posted in I Have a Question

Hello, everyone,

I am totally confused about why the following sentence has yě and not hé in it:

他們都很聰明也很努力, 所以 Peter 說:"XYZ"

tāmen dōu hěn cōngmíng yě hěn nǔlì, suǒyǐ Peter shuō: "XYZ"

This was my question. The rest is trying to explain why it confuses me.

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I have revisited the topic of how to decide between 還, 也, 和 a hundered times, but I keep making mistakes. I have become used to the following patterns:

A. Comparing different subject (yě)

我畢業了. 我弟弟也畢業了.

Wǒ bìyè le. Wǒ dìdi yě bìyè le.

I graduated. My little brother also did.

B.Object of fixed verb varies(hái)

我有咖啡, 還有茶.

Wǒ yǒu kafēi, háiyǒu chá.

I have coffee. I also have tea.

C. Connecting equal terms(hé)

子产是如此的聪明和善良，至今中国的老百姓都非常尊崇他。(From yǒudào)

Zi Chan was so smart and so kind that Chinese people still honor him today.

Now, I wanted to write the centence:

"They all were clever and hard working, therefore Peter said XYZ ".

My try was:

他們都很聰明和很努力, 所以 Peter 說:"XYZ"

tāmen dōu hěn cōngmíng hé hěn nǔlì, suǒyǐ Peter shuō: "XYZ"

Apparently it should be

他們都很聰明也很努力, 所以 Peter 說:"XYZ"

tāmen dōu hěn cōngmíng yě hěn nǔlì, suǒyǐ Peter shuō: "XYZ"

Right-Wingnut

March 31, 2013, 12:54 AM

This might be an oversimplification, so I am prepared to be corrected:

和 is used to connect nouns.

还 meaning 'and' or 'also' is used to connect verbs. It can also connect adjectives, but then it takes the meaning of 'still'.

也 is used to connect verbs or adjectives, or even a verb with an adjective

So the only confusion is whether to use 也 or 还 when connecting two verbs. This is where I'll need someone else's input.

However in your final example you are connecting two adjectives, so the only choice is 也.

akalovid

Thank you, this would clarify everything, but it would also make the sentence from 有道 wrong:

子产是如此的聪明和善良，至今中国的老百姓都非常尊崇他。(From yǒudào)

Furtehrmore, I've seen many sentences like this:

他们通宵喝酒、唱歌和跳舞。

Is the 是 in your example part of the 是...的 pattern? I'm guessing it must be, as there is no intensifier like 很 which typically precedes adjectives. If I say 他是聪明的, isn't 聪明的 being treated as a noun, as a substitute for 聪明的人. Throwing away the rubbish, isn't your sentence basically 子产是聪明和善良的. I'm pretty sure you couldn't say 子产很聪明和善良.

With regard to your second example, I have all CPod Intermediate lessons in one Word file, and I just did a search for 和 in all lessons since the start of 2009. Not once in more than 4 years of lessons was 和 used to link verbs. So if that is a correct sentence then it is a big omission by CPod. However your sentence does seem to make sense to me, probably because it contains a straight list, and each of the verb-complement pairs can be thought of as an activity (a noun), like: drinking, singing and dancing. But where did you find that sentence (and the many others)?

akalovid

Sorry, I can't tell you whether it's the 是...的 pattern! I think you are much more advanced than I am. It would make sense.

It might be that I am always wrong when it appears to me that 和 connects verbs. I admit that to me it is always very unclear what is a verb, noun or adjective in Chinese.

As for the sentences, I wish I had recorded all of them yesterday. Most of them where from youdao. Does youdao contain errors? The one I citet was from this site:

http://studymorechinese.com/forum/topics/question-on-conjunctions-he

From youdao

(http://dict.youdao.com/search?le=eng&q=play%20and&keyfrom=dict.top):

a)我们是学生，我们也是人，我们需要一些空闲时间玩耍和休息

(http://dict.youdao.com/search?le=eng&q=lj%3Acry%20and&keyfrom=dict.index)

a)我什么都不做——只是哭泣和回忆。

b)节目中的虚情假意也太过类似：烟雾效果和镜子，故作紧张的音乐以及多次排练的哭泣和大笑环节

(http://dict.youdao.com/search?le=eng&q=lj%3Aeat%2C%20pray&keyfrom=dict.top)

还有一位叫伊丽莎白·姬尔波特----《美食、祈祷和恋爱》的作者。

Am I perhaps wrong in identifying 玩耍, 休息 as verbs in the first youdao example? In the second example it could be a shi...de pattern, right?

Please note, I am not trying to argue anything, I am only trying to reconcile the sentences I find with some pattern. Additionally, my Chinese is very poor. If everything turns out to fit into the pattern you mentioned, I will be very happy.

Right-Wingnut

I'm not claiming to be right here either. And I'm certainly not advanced - I'm still working my way through the Intermediate lessons. However I know that

他們都很聰明和很努力, 所以 Peter 說:"XYZ"

just sounds wrong. The rules I gave were simply from experience, and I was trying to see how far I could defend these rules before they snapped.

I don't have time to read through your examples today, but I'll give it a rethink next chance I get. I hadn't come across youdao before, so I cannot comment on how reliable they are - I suspect that there is no problem with their sentences and that its my rules which need tweaking.

akalovid

My guess would be, that my sentences belong to some weird subgroup, because your argument about searching the Chinesepod lessons is very strong. Since I am pretty confused, I would appreciate a CPod person clarifying this ;)