Chunk 16

marcelbdt

July 30, 2008, 11:53 AM posted in General Discussion

Maybe it's my turn to put my head on the block to keep the stone (or my head) rolling:

石道:"自然,自然."那僧又道:"若说你性灵,却又如此质蠢,并更无奇贵之处.如此也只好踮脚而已.也罢,我如今大施佛法助你助,待劫终之日,复还本质,以了此案. 你道好否?"

The stone said "Of course, of course." The buddhist continued "You seem to talk wisely, but later it will turn out to be foolish. The world will turn out dull and worthless. So we have to be careful. Anyhow, I will now use Buddhas great power to help you, even if at the end misfortune will come out of it.. I will restore you using these formulas . Do you agree to this?
,

石道:"自然,自然."

The stones said "Of course, of course."

那僧又道:

The buddhist monk said:

"若说你性灵,

it seems from your speech that you are clever,

却又如此质蠢,

But later it will turn out to be stupid.

并更无奇贵之处.

It will change into a place of no wonder or value.

如此也只好踮脚而已.

So we just have to tiptoe.
(Whatever that means to a Chinese. I am assuming that tiptoing
means being careful, walking aware of lurking dangers.)

也罢,我如今大施佛法助你助,

As you wish. I will use Buddha's power to help you today.

待劫终之日,

expecting the misfortune that will eventually come one day.

复还本质,以了此案.

I will return to your true nature,
by using these formulas.

(My head is really in danger at this point. I can't figure out what 案
refers to. It can mean "table, (juridical) case, record". but since the monk is about to read magic formulas,
I am guessing that he has brought a grimoire, and that the 案 is that book)

你道好否?"

Do say this is good or not?

changye

July 30, 2008, 02:20 PM

Hi marcelbdt,

Thank you for your pinch-hitting. I'm sure that henning would be very pleased to know that a lot of guys contribute to his lifework during his leave

若 (if, even if) 说你性灵(smart)
却(but)又(also)如此(like this)质蠢(stupid, 性质愚蠢)

并更无奇贵之处 (没有奇贵的地方，没有好处)
and furthermore, there is no good/precious point

踮脚 (dian3 jiao3) my dictionary says it means “cripple” (dialect), but I also think that “carefully walk” makes sense better than 'cripple.'

待(wait)劫(lifetime, it’s a Buddhism term)终之日
when your last day comes,

复(again)还(revert to)本质(essence)
again reverts to your original feature (i.e. 石头)

以(hereby)了(finish)此(this)案(case, 案件)

henning

August 07, 2008, 06:15 AM

My wife told me that she recently learned (!) that

劫

means a "stage" that you reach in Buddhism. And yes, it takes at least a lifetime to reach the next stage.

Hope we do not encounter too many Buddhist concepts on the way. Those are real obstacles.

changye

July 30, 2008, 11:38 PM

Hi liansuo,

I know nothing about Chinese dictionaries published in Western countries. I guess that there might be good Chinese-English dictionaries, but not sure about ones in other languages. I expect that more good Chinese dictionaries will be published in the near future, thanks to today's craze for Chinese study.

As for Chinese-Japanese and Japanese-Chinese dictionaries, I can assure you that there are several excellent ones available in Japan, where you find a lot of example sentences, very helpful grammatical hints, cultural tips, and explanations on word usages and difference between near-synonyms.

This is just an aside, but English dictionaries edited in Japan are even better than Chinese ones. In short, Japanese people, publishers/editors included, are very particular about learner’s dictionaries for the very simple reason that Japanese people are NOT good at learning foreign languages!

Anyway, only referring to modern Chinese dictionaries is sometimes not enough when you are reading Chinese classical literature in both 文言 and 白话. If possible, I recommend you obtain 古代汉语词典 or, at least, 古代汉语字典. Of course, a large dictionary also contains some ancient words and usages.

liansuo

July 31, 2008, 07:00 AM

Thank you so much, Changye, for your patient answer to my very ill thought-through question re dictionaries. When all is said and done, I have to face it once more: there is no ticket for a safe, direct trip to classical Chinese literature. After all, I am looking for otherness and that has got to hurt.

So maybe I should up the ante and return to those long abandoned attempts at your language? ;) How I would love to tackle the mysteries of the Stone handling those sensously pleasing, crisp, meticulously researched Japanese dictionaries... But that is for the next kalpa!!

marcelbdt

July 31, 2008, 08:31 PM

Postmortem : I'll try to sum up what I have learnt.

(1) My dictionaries did not have the buddhist link to 劫, but I believe you guys.
The http://dict.revised.moe.edu.tw dictionary says

梵語音譯「劫波」（ kalpa）的略稱。一個極為長久的時間單位。

that is, 劫波 = Sanskrit "kalpa" = a very very very long time.

I can't find 劫 = lifetime anywhere though? Maybe is the poor stone expected to wait an entire kalpa?

(2) There was some talk of 性灵 at the start of this, and considering that,
I suppose I agree with liansuo. So the first line would be
"You do have lifespirit, but you are foolish and possess no nobleness"?

(3) I am worried about the fact that 案 is usually translated as "LEGAL case", and worried that
the multiple meanings of the English word "case" might improperly spill over into
the translation from Chinese, that's why I refused the translation "以了此案" = the case will be closed.

And I am still worried about translating 以了 as "hereby finish" - how can " 以" do that trick?

changye

August 01, 2008, 01:47 AM

Hi marcerlbdt,

Actually, the character 却 (or 劫波) is a little tricky. I also agree that its basic meaning is “a very long time”. For the record, there is also a relevant word 永劫 (eternity) in Chinese, Korean and Japanese.

I translated the 劫 as “lifetime”, firstly, because otherwise it wouldn’t make sense in context. I thought it would be too generous (or in a sense, it’s very cruel) of the monks to give a quasi-eternal life to the stone.

Secondly, I found the word “劫劫” in one of my dictionaries. Its definition is “世世 (for generations)，佛教认为一劫为一世 (Buddhism regards 一劫 as 一世)”. The character 劫 doesn’t always mean “a very long time”.

As for 以了此案，I readily admit that my translation was very bad. I should have made it “以(herewith)了(close)此(this)案(matter)” instead of 以(hereby)了(finish)此(this)案(case, 案件). Does this make sense in English?

The word 此案 should be translate as 此件 or 此事 in modern Chinese. Finally, let me show you a good example to understand the usage of 以: 好好运动，以免得病 (Exercise more so that you don’t get sick). Thanks.

P/S 性灵 mainly have two meanings, i.e. “spirit” and “smart” (性格灵俐, or 伶俐). I take the latter one.

changye

August 01, 2008, 01:31 PM

Hi marcelbdt,

I’m willing to admit that I'm not a busy guy, so I’ve been thinking about the 劫 since I posted the above comment this morning. And I’ve come to the conclusion that I should revise my explanation about the interpretation of the 劫 in the phrase 劫终之日.

I read some web pages about 红楼梦 today and found that the whole story of the novel was going to be engraved on the surface of the huge boulder (大石) after its journey into a human society, which is why the novel is also called “石头记”.

And therefore, the 劫 means a generation (or a few generations) rather than the boulder’s lifetime. At least, it is not “a very long time”, but “a certain period of time”, which is consequently equal to the time period in which the main characters lived.

liansuo

July 30, 2008, 06:07 PM

Oh, neat – here we are again! (I just hope Derek is OK.)

Thank you for your heroism, Marcel! In return I am going to offer you what I would have had without your joint contributions AND confess that I simply have not been able to figure out how to put a chunk on this site. Smart, hmmm?

The reason why I spell out my questionable result is that in the past I have gotten a lot of mileage out of being told about the exact place of my slips and misjudgements.

And while I am at it – in another post today, Changye sensei, you advised to get a better dictionary. What would you recommend as the best printed resource for difficult texts like this one? ( Always assuming you have nothing better to do.)

 若说你性灵,

Now (talking about) what regards you having spiritual substance

却又如此质蠢 but it is also so very foolish

并更无奇贵之处 and above all has no (place of) trace of nobleness.

如此也只好踮脚而已 thus we (you?) will just have to make do (according to my dict.: stand on tiptoes) a bit.

也罢,我如今大施佛法助你助

Anyway, I am now going to perform a big Buddhist ceremony to help you out,

待劫终之日,复还本质,以了此案

until by the end of your days (or "this kalpa"?) you will return to your original state/essence and the case will be closed.

derek

August 05, 2008, 03:45 AM

Hi guys,

I have been very busy at work for the past week so not much time to study, unfortunately. :(

I have several Chinese-English dictionaries, but none of them are very good. When I get stuck I use an online dictionary here: www.erong.com

It is the most comprehensive resource I have found so far, has lots of examples and 成语, but it is all in Chinese, so probably only suitable for people at intermediate level or above.

henning

August 05, 2008, 06:49 AM

Thanks for the link + the effort, derek.

I am still catching up, but might provide a new chunk by Thursday. Hope you are not too spoiled after all that recent high-quality input.

I am confident that we conquer this novel. After all it is only a 120 chapter book and we already got about 10-15% of the first. :)

changye

August 05, 2008, 07:51 AM

Hi henning,

＞　about 10-15% of the first

Thanks, your comment is very encouraging.

Now I'll never again forget the character 劫 , which is probably a good thing.

When the main character (Bao Yu) passes away, he is transformed back into a stone, and the entire text of the Hong Lou Meng is written on that stone, causing the novel to enter itself.