第一回: Chunk 22

henning
August 10, 2008, 12:59 PM posted in General Discussion

石头笑答道:"我师何太痴耶!若云无朝代可考,今 我师竟假借汉唐等年纪添缀, 又有何难?但我想,历来野史,皆蹈一辙,莫如我这不借 此套者, 反倒新奇别致,不过只取其事体情理罢了,又何必拘拘于朝代年纪哉!再者, 市井俗人喜看理治之书者甚少,爱适趣闲文者特多.历来野史,或讪谤君相,或贬人妻 女, 奸淫凶恶,不可胜数.更有一种风月笔墨,其淫秽污臭,屠毒笔墨,坏人子弟,又不 可胜数.至若佳人才子等书,则又千部共出一套,且其中终不能不涉于淫滥,以致满纸 潘安, 子建,西子,文君,不过作者要写出自己的那两首情诗艳赋来,故假拟出男女二 人名姓,又必旁出一小人其间拨乱,亦如剧中之小丑然.且鬟婢开口即者也之乎,非文 即理.故逐一看去,悉皆自相矛盾,大不近情理之话,竟不如我半世亲睹亲闻的这几个 女子,虽不敢说强似前代书中所有之人,但事迹原委,亦可以消愁破闷,也有几首歪诗 熟话,可以喷饭供酒.

I needed some help here and there and hope that I got the core message correct in the end (changye, liansuo, derek, please have mercy!). I would boil it down to: "Folks like sex and crime, not those Disney-stories with a hero couple, a villain, and a sidekick".

So here my try:
The stone replied laughing: "Why is my master so stubborn? If you say the dynasty cannot be determined, then, my master, make use of the time of 汉, 唐 etc. and fill [the story] up accordingly, what’s so difficult about that?

But the whole time in legends all trample in the same trace. Isn’t it better that  I don’t apply that same frame and on the contrary [make this] novel special and only follow the affair’s internal logic - and there is no need to restrain the dynasty and time?

Furthermore only very few common people like to reed books on righteuous conduct ("reasonable governing"). Very many love just entertainment literature. Throughout the story either ridiculing monarchs or debasing other people’s women, endless adultery and evil. And then there is this sort of love writings, that obscene, dirty, poisonous writing [that] spoils people, sons and brothers - [those books] are also absolutely countless.

Until in those books excellent people, talented sons etc. still come out by the thousand s in one novel, it in the end [still] cannot be avoided to also involve excessiveness. While filling the paper with 潘安 (a handsome boy), 子建, (the intelligent son of Cao Cao), 西子 (a famous beauty), 文君 (yet another famous beautiful and lovely woman), the author still wants to write his own two love poems and glamorous poetic essays, [so] he invents a couple, and then there must also appear a bad person as a side role who brings chaos just like there has to be clown in the story. Moreover even the maids speak highly educated. And if it is not a story then it is a textbook

[I] read one after another. All contract themselves, most are far away from logic. [They] cannot even be compared with the women observed in half my life with my own eyes. Although I do not dare to claim that they are better than all those people that have been written about in past generations.

But the background of the story can also divert from boredom, it also has entertaining poems, hot words, and can [make one] spit out food [e.g. because of laughing] and provide fun.

 

Breakdown:

石头笑答道:
The stone replied laughing


"我师何太痴耶!,
Why is my master so stubborn?

若云无朝代可考
If you say the dynasty cannot be determined

今 我师竟假借汉唐等年纪添缀, 又有何难?
now my master then make use (假借) of the time of 汉, 唐 etc. and fill it up accordingly (添缀), what’s the difficulty with that?


但我想,历来野史,
but the whole time (历来) in legends (野史)


皆蹈一辙,
all trample in the same trace (辙),

 

莫如我这不借 此套者,
Isn’t it betterthat  I don’t lend/use/apply (借) that  same frame  (此套者)

反倒新奇别致,
And on the contrary [make this] novel different/special/unique (别致)

不过只取其事体情理罢了,
but only take this affair’s (事体) causalities (情理)

再者,
furthermore

市井俗人喜看理治之书者甚少,
“marketplace (市井) layman” (common people) like to watch books on reasonable governing are really few

爱适趣闲文者特多.
very many love just entertainment (趣闲) literature

历来野史,
throughout the legend [story]

或讪谤君相,或贬人妻 女,
either ridiculing (讪谤) monarchs or debase (贬) other people’s women (人妻 女)

奸淫凶恶 不可胜数
endless (不可胜数) adultery (奸淫) and evil

更有一种风月笔墨, ,
moreover there is this sort of love (风月!) writing

其淫秽污臭,屠毒笔墨
That obscene (淫秽) dirty poisonous writing

坏人子弟
[That] Spoil (坏 as a verb!) people, sons and brothers

,又不 可胜数.
Are also absolutely countless

至若佳人才子等书
Until such books on excellent people, talented sons etc.

,则又千部共出一套,
However still a thousand  come out in one novel

且其中终不能不涉于淫滥,
Still it in the end cannot avoid (终不能不 to involve excessiveness (淫滥)

以致满纸 潘安,
By filling the paper with潘安 (a handsome boy from Chinese history)

子建,
(a very intelligent man – son of Cao Cao)

西子,
(a famous beauty of ancient China)

文君,
(no general here: a famous beautiful and lovely woman from history - main character of a reverse Cinderella story)

不过作者要写出自己的那两首来,
But the author wants to write his own two love poems (情诗) glamorous poetic essays (艳赋)

故假拟出男女二 人名姓,
Story invented two people (man and a woman) names [and thereby these people]

又必旁出一小人其间拨乱,
Also must appear a side role (旁出一) a bad persons who brings chaos

亦如剧中之小丑然.
Just like there has to be clown of a story

且鬟婢开口即者也之乎,
Moreover [Even] the servant[s]/maid[s] (鬟婢) speak[s] (开口) educuated / eloquent (者也之乎)

非文 即理.
If it is not a story (非文) then it is a (即) "logic book" -> scientific book ("Sachbuch"? - I make this a textbook]
非 -> 即 if not-then

故逐一看去,
[I] read one after another

悉皆自相矛盾,
(悉 in the sense of “be”??) all contract themselves (自相矛盾)

大不近情理之话,
Most are far away from (do not approach) logic (情理之话)

竟不如我半世亲睹亲闻的这几个 女子,
Even [I make this 竟 "even" to match the context better than "after all"] cannot compare with the women observed in half my life with my own eyes

虽不敢说强似前代书中所有之人,
Although I do not dare to claim that they are stronger/better than all those people that have been written about in past generations

但事迹原委,
But the background 原委 of the story (事迹)

亦可以消愁破闷,
Also can divert from boredom (消愁破闷)

也有几首歪诗 熟话,
also have "casual" / "entertaining" poems  [better English word for歪诗?], hot words,

可以喷饭供酒.
Can [make one] spit out food [e.g. because of laughing] and provide fun (供酒) [酒 as a metaphor for fun]

Profile picture
changye
August 10, 2008, 01:20 PM

Hi henning,

我真佩服你!我喝醉了,明天再见。

Profile picture
liansuo
August 10, 2008, 02:38 PM

Henning -- compliments, you must be a fast packer!!  And do not worry -- already your boil-down version is very convincing! ;)  Actually, I have been thinking, we should do that from time to time --sum up the ponderous statements and see whether they make sense in sequence.

What I like so much is the humour and the vigour of the language -- you can see the grin and the twinkle in the eye of the-- boulder.  No mean feat, very disneylike indeed!!

Profile picture
derek
August 11, 2008, 05:24 AM

An incredible effort Henning, dont know how you could do it so quickly!

I will try to finish the paragraph by tomorrow.

Profile picture
changye
August 11, 2008, 06:18 AM

Hi henning,

I've found that just “nitpicking” is a rather hard job this time, so I believe that translating this paragraph from scratch was really tough, which I thank you very much. Now let me just add supplementary explanations about words and characters. Look forward to reading derek's posting!

我师何太痴(ye2)
(ye2) = (xie2) = interrogative, irony

It is said that was originally a typo of . Interestingly, sometimes meant “father” in old Chinese, because its reading is the same as that of (ye2, father, grandpa). And therefore this might be a reason why Jesus was transliterated as (ye1, father) (su1, revive) in Chinese. I know, I know, Jesus is a CHILD of God! It’s just a wild guess.

Just for the record, 假借 is one of 六书 (Six categories of Chinese characters), as well as 象形,指事,会意,形声,转注. The relationship between and I mentioned above is an example of 假借. In the 六书, 假借 means “to borrow other character which has the same or similar pronunciation and make it have a different meaning”.

野史 (= 稗史, bai4 shi3) is the antonym of 正式 (official historiography) such as 史记,汉书 and 三国志. It’s a kind of anthology of 民间故事,街谈巷议 and 传说.

皆蹈一辙 Everyone falls into the same rut.

莫如我这不借 (this)(method, way)(thing)

不过只取其事体(= 事情)情理(人情 and 道理)罢了(而已)

再者 (furthermore), 今者 (now), 昔者 (before), 不者 (= 要不, otherwise)

市井(town, on the street)俗人喜看理治之书者甚少

讪谤君相 (君子 and 丞相等等, Emperor and ministers)

至若( = 至如 = 至于 = as for ,as to)

佳人(beautiful woman)才子(talented man)等书
才子佳人小说 is a novel category that was popular in the Qing dynasty, featuring love affairs between a beautiful woman and a talented man. I think that they were just like today’s “Korean soap operas”!

(就是)(again)千部共出一套 (= 千篇一律, They are all the same, i.e. stereotyped)

西子 (= 西施) 中国四大美女之一,They say 西施 is the most beautiful woman in Chinese history. There is a well-known saying, 情人眼里出西施. (Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.) Just for the record, my chubby dog is a 西施犬 (or 狮子狗, Shih Tzu), and her favorite saying is “Love me, love my dog”.

写出自己的两首情诗艳赋(two poems = symbolize two leading characters?)来. 首 also means "head, or leaders".

(= 一定)假拟出(invent)男女二人名姓

亦如剧中之小丑(= 然似的, just like)
鬟婢(female servant)开口即者(= 即是,就是)(also)(this = as follows)(interjection!)

= (this or not > simple-minded)

(all)(all)自相矛盾  e.g. 熟悉 (shu2 xi1, be very familiar with)

熟话 same old stories, banal stories

Profile picture
changye
August 11, 2008, 06:37 AM

P/S correction

非文即理 = 非此即彼 (this or that > simple-minded)

Profile picture
henning
August 11, 2008, 06:57 AM

Thanks for your comments, Changye and please apologize my faulty post. I am well aware that I am two levels below the rest of the members here. ;) Sitting at the Frankfurt AirPort now. Keep up the posting guys, so I have something to read when I come back!

Profile picture
changye
August 11, 2008, 07:50 AM

P/S 2. Correction, again.

野史(= 稗史, bai4 shi3) is the antonym of 正史 (official historiography, such as 史记,汉书 and 三国志.) It’s a kind of anthology of 民间故事,街谈巷议 and 传说.

Profile picture
liansuo
August 11, 2008, 08:47 AM

Impossible to respond more than globally to all the above except with the usual formulae of thanks and admiration.  I have to study it in detail.

But the part about 耶 really fascinates me.  I have always thought what you say here, Changye sensei -- and you know, the title for Jesus is "Lord" -- which is not "childlike" but very much in the vein of 耶 in the patriarchal society.  And then --- perhaps for a rainy Sunday without new anime--- who came up with these transliterations -- like "Jesus" in the case mentioned? Missionary fathers?  Because, look at the character  穌 --there is a fish and an oar of grain (Christian symbols) -- and it means "resurrect "-- this just does not look like a coincidence.  Except that there seems to be an older different way of writing it --  certainly to be found in your dictionaries.  (I am not being pious, by the way -- just etymologically fascinated.)

Profile picture
marcelbdt
August 11, 2008, 08:06 PM

A partial alternative:


--------------


更有一种风月笔墨,

*There are also romances*

其淫秽污臭,

*filled of foul obscenities*

屠毒笔墨,

*character murders*

(http://dict.revised.moe.edu.tw has "屠毒笔墨" = "以文詞攻擊他人,使人身敗名裂的行為")


坏人子弟,

*bad bad people*

(http://dict.revised.moe.edu.tw has the seemingly similar "風月子弟" ="在風月場所中打混的男人" -
something like "people wallowing in carnal pleasures")

又不可胜数.

*and many other such.*

至若佳人才子等书,

*as for the Korean Soaps :)*

则又千部共出一套,

*they are all the same*

且其中终不能不涉于淫滥,

*they are always smutty,*

以致满纸

 *full of*

潘安,

子建, also known as 曹植, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cao_Zhi.

西子, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xishi

文君,

*clever and beautiful people*

不过作者要写出自己的那两首情诗艳赋来,

*However, this author wants to write*

故假拟出男女二人名姓,

*hiding the names of the lovers*

又必旁出一小人其间拨乱.

*And of a person from an inferior branch of the family who causes turmoil.*

(旁出 = "side branch of family"

Profile picture
changye
August 12, 2008, 02:48 AM

Hi marcelbdt,

> 屠毒笔墨 "以文詞攻擊他人,使人身敗名裂的行為"

The online dictionary you introduced above is very comprehensive, which I thank you. I couldn’t find this phrase in any of my dictionaries. This should be translated as “barbed/venomous writings (remarks)”, I suppose.

坏人子弟 = 弄坏【人家子弟】
I’ve found the similar phrase “
误人子弟”, which means that 耽误[人家子弟] (waste, interfere with people’s children). This is commonly used when criticizing an incapable teacher.

不可胜数 = 不可 + (can, endure)(shu3, count) = innumerable

假拟(= 虚构, fictitious)出名姓 = invent fictional names

旁出(butt in, pop up)一小人其间拨乱
I think this line
should be translated as “a peanut butt in and .