Chapter 1

I guess you can use "search", and then search for my email addy, then I should turn up, and you can "add" me as contact.

Marcel, forgive me -- but -- how do I go about it? My experience is so limited and hand-held so far that I do not know how to start it.. Thank you for your patience.

liansuo> Its enough if you can find me on skype, and ask me for permission to call you.. then i will automatically get your adress. Kathy has found me.

Thank you, Kathy -- there is no problem at all. There is so much I don't understand anyway, I am putty in technological hands :) But lo and behold -- I could skype -- I do it with my son, so if there is nothing to it -- and I guess you and Marcel could instruct me-- why not try it. Of course - that will have its little snags too. We simply have to give it a chance.
Just reassure me: are we all keying in on 2.2? Or is stuff left from 2.1? (I am sort of hastening away from the dust-wisps).
I see by Marcel's latest note -- just popped up, that one has to know one's skype address -- and I don't ... Help! I am REEAL dumbo.

Yes, two reasons for splitting the comments. First, I don't know, but suspect that we get a breakdown if we have too many comments in the same "lesson". Secondly, it makes it easier later to find the comments if the comments on one chapter are collected in one place.

I'm on skype - marcel@imf.au.dk

Hi, Liansuo.

The muddle is that we (Marcel) split the Chapter 1 comments from Chapter 2, I assume to avoid another overload/breakdown. I just went along, but should have pointed it out.

Again, we're new to this and don't know all the ins and outs. I wonder if the two of you are on Skype and would ever want to do a summing up call, maybe at the end of each chapter.

Just a thought.

K.

This is very strange -- all of a sudden I have your (K&M) notes on 1.8, 1.9., 1.10 popping up for the first time. I am sorry if it looked as if I was not paying attention to all your good work. But the trouble is that at this stage it gets so space- and time-consuming to respond to all the back and forth-- and I don't dare to just sum up in my unsystematic way any more. ;-) I have a few places where i could comment but all in all I agree. So -- I guess I better join you for the next paragraphs again. Smaller chunks? But how can such muddles happen?

1.10 Kathy: 你打哪儿钻出来了 Because of the 来 I think it means "come from", so the sentence would be "Where did you come from?" (I don't have "打钻").

1.10 I don't have 靠定

1.10 Kathy: 三分 sānfēn n. ①tripartition ②thirty percent ③three-tenths ④a little bit; in same degree; somewhat

Thanks, Marcel - this is great!

I couldn't find anything for 偏生 piānshēng. Having your definition, I'm sure your translation is right: 偏生你四哥不争气 as simply "unexpectedly 你四哥 never lived up to expectations." I was grasping to make it work the other way.

I assume you mean "lose face", or maybe she's lost A LOT of weight recently. 開玩笑！( 面上无光 = "loose face" ).

避重就轻[---輕] bìzhòngjiùqīng f.e. ①sidestep major matters and dwell on trivia ②take the easier way out. So I think that what exasperates 流苏 is that her mother is trying to smooth things over, and tries hard not to mention how 流苏 is mistreated in the family.
Yes, I think this is right.

This settles it, I have to get a better dictionary or two!

K.

Oh no! And here I thought I might be catching up.

Well, I'll post what I have to finish out Chapter 1, then look at Marcel's latest.

1. (1.9) Kathy: 徐太太那边找到了合适的人. Shouldn’t this be 哪遍？ Otherwise there’s no question word, right?

2. (1.9) Kathy: 听她说得怪好的 怪 here in the sense of “rather” or “quite”? [I] heard her say (According to her) it’s quite good.

3. (1.9) Marcel: 白替她操了心 Here 操心 is "worry about", and 替 probably "on behalf of", but what about 白? In vain? Kathy: I think so, it’s the same thing I came up with 白替她操了心 worried on her behalf in vain.

4. (1.9) Marcel: 她不是我亲生的 "She is not born of my family" I think that we will learn later exactly what 七妹 is. Kathy: oh good, more intrigue!

5. (1.9) 老太太 definitely seems interested in the tea, and making sure 徐太太 gets the good stuff by not the best??

6. (1.9) Marcel: Also, it seems to be quite difficult to get up and down the stairs in this house. Kathy: especially if you’re dying and have to lean on another old woman, quite possibly with bound feet!

7. (1.10) Marcel: 别由着性儿闹 - maybe "由着性儿" = "in an egoistic way" Kathy: I’m happy to go with that, I couldn't make sense of it, but this fits with what follows, 四奶奶 telling 宝络 not to be as headstrong as 流苏 and just think she can get divorced and all will be OK.

8. (1.10) Marcel: I suppose that 四奶奶 is worried about how much 宝络 has overheard? Kathy: Maybe. Although nothing 宝络 might have overheard so far would lead her to believe that either marriage or divorce is anything great!

9. (1.10) Kathy: 你打哪儿钻出来了? Generally I gather this means where did you disappear to. I don’t find 打钻 together anywhere. Do you?

10. (1.10) Kathy:靠定 as in 不能靠定了人家. Basically this means you can’t depend on other people, but I’d appreciate knowing if you find 靠定 as a phrase in your dictionaries.

11. (1.10) Kathy:我还有三分廉耻呢！I still have a sense of honor/shame. Is the 三分 out of 四分? 75% isn’t bad after all she’s been through – although she’s given/giving 流苏 a really hard time.

Glad you're sticking with the us, Marcel, in spite of our not infrequent gushing.

K.

1.8 (middle) My dictionary has 偏生 piānshēng* adv. 〈topo.〉 ①unexpectedly ②stubbornly

so I would translate 偏生你四哥不争气 as simply "unexpectedly 你四哥 never lived up to expectations." Not causal connection to 你四嫂天生的要强性儿，一向管着家. (But I am not sure, Kathy might be right)

面上无光 = "loose face" So: Since the fourth lady has lost face, only the third lady is left to be in charge? Except for that, I agree with Kathy.

避重就轻[---輕] bìzhòngjiùqīng f.e. ①sidestep major matters and dwell on trivia ②take the easier way out

So I think that what exasperates 流苏 is that her mother is trying to smooth things over, and tries hard not to mention how 流苏 is mistreated in the family.

1.8 (end) After thinking about this for a while, I agree with Kathy about the motivations of the mother.

Yeah, Kathy, I see... when the two of us ever decide to get really personal, both at once, without restraint, we better give a storm warning to Marcel so he can tie himself to the mast so as not to get swept overboard. :-) I am happy that after so many years my sneaking off to F.Kuhn makes sense.
But for now social life is calling me away. Until soon!

Here I am again, sneaking peeks and feeling elated that we three have found each other. (My personal side is definitely outweighing the practical today).

Actually, I'm generally concerned about gushing and getting too personal, so I try to rein myself, and will do so now as well.

It's pretty incredible that early on you both read Chinese lit in German translation, and that I have some background in German, too. (Even older than my Chinese, it dates back to being an exchange student in Germany in 1978-79!). Now my only German connections are singing Schubert and Schumann, and talking a couple of times a year with an old friend from Germany who I met in China in 1983.

My Chinese journey began as a high school student desperate to get as far away from home as possible and deciding pretty much out of the blue to major in Chinese and go to China (which I did). I love the spoken word, but it’s the characters that really entranced me. So it’s difficult to come back to them now as long, lost friends. Until recently the emphasis has been on long and lost, but you’re both helping shift the scales in favor of friends!

THANK YOU!

K.

P.S. This is me restraining myself from bursting into really sappy, giddy song lyrics to express my exuberance!

Great to be with you!

Liansuo, I also read the Franz Kuhn Insel translations in pocket book format...:)

About Chinese input: I write every longer post in a different program, offline, and paste it when I want to post. I think that that is safer. I assume that you use the Microsoft input system, like I do, so that you can easily shift between Chinese and English (or non-Chinese)?

I'll be back with some 中文 later.

How did I deserve to bump into such an amazingly kind and ... therapeutically gifted group? Thank God for Big Brother watching us or I might rashly beam you both not only chocolate but a hug. It is extra sweet that Marcel is offering us his most personal side and Kathy goes intensely practical. :-) Well: Kathy, I will look into all your good advice and start being more organized, too. I am going to pester our son who is my coach on the Mac. Yeah -- I am a Mac fan. too. So there would be the same situation re characters for us. It is not difficult, I agree, but sometimes I wonder why a given character is soo far down on the list -- and I am very impatient. Above all I need to learn saving and transferring techniques. So far I have been living in that small Post a reply window ... with those tiny characters ... yucchh... Marcel's story of a" weird" little boy falling in love with Chinese and pursuing it tenaciously throughout his life is wonderful. It is strangely similar to mine ... although I started out with Chinese novels which I read in a German translation and very secretely (early practice for Wang Er's topics, very naughty kid) ... until with almost fifty I contracted the most violent case of character addiction on a visit to Japan. Then long dabbling with learning 漢 字 and many not very successful attempts at private lessons with Chinese people, none of them actual teachers, because the university here does not offer sinology -- so like Marcel: I practically lived on written language alone. That's why I too immediately responded to his profile note -- I knew that we would have something in common. A good deal of my intensity about learning such a useless thing is to be explained as an "empty nest" reaction - again somewhat like Marcel who had to wait for more space and leisure to get more involved. If I was as busy as you appear to be, Kathy, I would have to drop this like a hot potato -- I could never do it as a sideline -- it is very time- and energy-consuming.
I have mainly learned from reading Chinese literature and intuitively, as you know. Structured exercises and grammars never kept me for a long time. That is why it is such a chance to have people with a different approach looking over my shoulder. Much as I hate to make mistakes, I treasure the learning that comes from them. Well, for today I will leave it at that. I am still wondering how we can move into a better position over our text -- heads closer together so to say -- small chunk tactics?? Until soon then - in relentless pursuit of ZAL's subtleties.

A quick good morning to you both.

Liansuo, I so sympathize. At some point I’d had this experience so many times that I became a fanatic about saving text as I write - it's become second nature. Whenever I pause my fingers just automatically hit CTRL S. This can be a real problem when I'm online and there's nothing really to be saved and the systems get confused.

When you two send long messages with lots of questions, I save them to my computer and work on my responses offline (saving madly every few seconds). That way I have your thoughts and mine all in one place for future reference, and save myself the grief of messing up on line, which I do all the time! (Not sure if this is what happened to you or not). Uh oh, I’m sounding slightly systematic here. My challenge is trusting intuition more.

I can’t be much help with writing Chinese, it’s really easy on my computer. I run Microsoft Word on my Mac and can easily toggle between English and Chinese characters. I think it works the same on a PC, but am not sure. But for our work/fun, I just cut and paste from the original text Marcel gave us – and only type in new characters when I have to.

Marcel, it was great to hear about your journey with Chinese - I've been wondering but didn't want to be nosy. There was just that hint in your profile. It's pretty amazing you started by picking up a library book way back when. And now you’re inspiring fellow Chinese readers with Zhang Ailin!

More this evening,

K.

Re the text, I like the idea of working in smaller chunks, but don’t want to hold you two back and I don’t mind the back and forth questions on text I haven’t even gotten to yet.

I’ve now made it through 1.8 and have the following thoughts and questions:

1. (1.8) Marcel: "双膝一软" she felt weak in the knees ? Kathy: I think so. My dictionary has: 兩腿發軟translated as “one’s legs feel like jelly”

2. (1.8) Marcel: 动拼西凑 Should this be "东拼西凑" - scrape together? Kathy: yes, definitely a typo.

3. (1.8) Liansuo asks: if Brother Four took public funds 公 帳 to finance his escapades ? …不该挪用了公帐上的钱. I took this 公 to be a reference to 白公馆 per 1.1 What do you think?

4.(1.8) Liansuo: Was his wife (四奶奶 )shamed by that -- was he found out? Or is this still all just within the family? And why does she let Wife Three run the house-- is that not normal, since Three is the older brother? Is it implied that she should help her more? Kathy: I’d really like to delve into this passage. Some of it I think I really grasp, and other parts elude me (I HAVE to get a better dictionary).

There’s this beautiful phrase 要强: to be eager to excel in whatever one does, as in 你四嫂天生的要强性儿，一向管着家，偏生你四哥不争气. So 四奶奶 by her very nature has always been eager to excel in whatever she does, and all along managed the household… Then: 偏生你四哥不争气. We all know 偏 and the difficulties in translating, but I wonder if here 生 is used almost in the sense of emerged or came to life. Then (in contrast with or almost to thwart 四奶奶’s ability to give full rein to her oh-so competent nature) 四哥’s failure to live up to expectations emerged. He went wild and made himself sick (I think?) with prostitutes and gambling and even embezzled money from the family account 公帐.

Result: 害得你四嫂面上无光，只好让你三嫂当家，心里咽不下这口气，着实不舒坦. Harmed your 四嫂 so that all the light went out of her face (as in she lost her glow, or we’d say the light went out of her eyes she was so ashamed…). So the only thing to do was make your 三嫂do the housework, while (I think) 四嫂in her heart was unable to unable to stomach the insult (咽不下这口气) and truly could not be at ease again. (Do you know the Schubert song – Gretchen am Spinnrade? It reminds me of that repeated line, “Meine Ruh is hin, mein Hertz ist schwer, Ich finde sie nimmer und nimmermehr.” My peace is gone, my heart is heavy; I will find it never, never again.)

So 三嫂 has to pitch in with managing the household, even though 精神又不济.

1. (1.8) I think I get the general meaning throughout this paragraph, but would love help with a more precise understanding of 玩出一身病来不算 (is 来不算 a set phrase? I can’t find it).

2. (1.8) Also, do you agree that 流苏听她母亲这话风，一味的避重就轻，自己觉得好没意思, 只得一言不发 means that when 流苏heard what her mother had to say, she felt that her grievances against her own husband were minor compared to her what her aunts had suffered, and felt that her own troubles weren’t worth talking about (好没意思), so she just didn’t say a word?

3. (1.8) Liansuo: The 說 聲 走， 一 撒手 就 走 了 I gather to be: "Say one word go! and I just loosen my grip and do go" --- meaning that she knows she is close to death and ready. Kathy: yes, I think so. We all struggled with this, and I’d like to understand more exactly the 說 聲 走part , but am pretty sure it means she’s close to death and knows it.

4. (1.8) Liansuo: And please -- do you too interpret the 領個 孩子 過活 as "Raise a child (i.e. the nephew she should adopt in the dead ex's family) and make this your life/ livelihood" ... ? Kathy: Yes, definitely.

5. (1.8) Liansuo: With which it is obvious that the mother is on the side of brother Four. Kathy: I suppose so, but I think it’s more from her mother’s practicality and a sense of helplessness to do anything else, as opposed to adherence to traditional values. Because she prefaces the suggestion to raise a nephew with talk of her own inability to take care of her family (可顾不得你们) and how 流苏 being back with her mother was never a long-term solution (你跟着我，总不是长久之计)。

Much as I’d love to continue, bed calls and then the swamp! Looking forward to more.

K.

P.S. Baobab tree, according to my translated text is 猴面包樹 – monkey bread tree?!

Hello, again.

I’ve been forcing myself all day to do what absolutely had to be done before I got back to the two of you – and now I’m breaking free!!

First a bit on recent general exchanges, and then back to our text. Please excuse me for the occasional all caps, I miss having bold and ital to work with.

I LOVE the text we’re working on now and feel a real affinity with it that just wasn’t happening with Wang Er. I would consider something lighter IN ADDITION TO or AFTER Zhang Ailin.

Liansuo, I think it’s great that you’re so direct – and admire your passion for the “otherness”. I haven’t been able to pinpoint my interest, but it has sure kicked in, and the intrigue of where cultures converge and diverge strikes a chord with me, too. The reason I might be able to get into a text I already know, translated into Chinese, is that while you’ve been obsessed with Chinese for 16 years, I’ve been AWAY from it for about 17. (No speaking, reading, listening – almost nothing since 1990, except a short trip to Beijing for the International Conference on Women in 1995).

Since last July I’ve started back in. The oral and aural [I love how those are pronounced the same but refer to such different orifices and linguistic functions!] were always strong and are coming back, but the characters vanished and when I say I’m putting in a lot of dictionary time, I mean it.

So, we’re all happy with Zhang Ailin, and Liansuo and I are grateful enough to Marcel to try to figure out a way to beam chocolate – or some other appreciated luxury – over the Internet!

Here's to sytematic minds tempered by madness.

K.

Yes, sometimes I have a systematic mind, but if it wasn't tempered by some madness, I would not be here, would I?

I want to continue with Eileen - and I am not after drawing huge crowds...:) But we could still look for other interesting texts. After all, it could possibly happen that we finish this one at some time in the future.

But at the moment I have more serious troubles. I am fighting with Chapter2.1, and I am missing the key to it.. but I'll post about that later.

Oh dear -- I did not mean to shoot our present reading down -- i enjoy what we are doing here enormously even though it offers few giggles. My knowledge in Chinese for better or for worse springs entirely from the intense curiosity about the foreigness or sameness of another culture ... and I would be -- forgive me, Kathy!!! - bored to read a text I already know in a translation. I almost suspect you would be, too, unless you were all set to learn "written Chinese" and combine it with the spoken lessons on Chinesepod. For people with a systematic mind and discipline that may be a very good idea and actually Marcel might be able to draw his crowds with a plan of this kind, but I am too ... well, see above. Please forgive me for being so direct. But among musketeers one better does not beat about the bush too much. :-) Re: redmouth: Yes, Marcel -- it is TOO complicated and truly not worth the bother for our purposes.

Anyhow, the link is here

I'll let you know about baobab trees when I get home - if I can find the book! Meanwhile, I must confess to cyber-ignorance. I'm sure I'm missing all kinds of stuff because I don't know how to navigate the site. I looked under conversations, then went to forum, then back to conversations and help..... Is there a way to search for specific threads? A different place I should be looking?

Sorry to be so lame.

K.

P.S. I figured you'd want literature of, by, and for Chinese people - I'm open to any and all suggestions.

I wonder what Baobab trees are in Chinese...:)

Immediately, I would prefer something written by Chinese people for Chinese people.

Thanks! I keep trying to grab a minute here and there.

I like the idea of a lighter text and wonder if it would be sacrilegious to suggest reading something like The Little Prince in Chinese. (This is actually the only book I've ever tried to read in Chinese - until now).

This doesn't get at the Chinese culture/contemp lit side of things, but might be more of a draw and less intimidating for others to join us.

Feel free to shoot this down - I'm not particularly attached to the idea. I'm heading now to Cpod to find the Eileen Zhang thread.

K.

Good that you could squeeze us in during this VERY small break..:) The thread over at CPod is "Reading Eileen Zhang".

HI, guys.

Just a very quick note during a very small break. I tried to find Marcel's article on Cpod, but failed. Can you point me in the right direction?

I like the idea of getting more folks in.

More thoughts soon.

K.

You are right, our stories are not exactly lightheaded.. maybe we could ask over at CPod if anyone has a suggestion? I haven't read so much.. I have read a simplified version of "Monkey", that's light headed enough, but I fear that the original is difficult to read.

If we find something, we could just make a new group for that text, its so easy to make groups.

Don't work too hard on the redmouths, maybe there is some long and complicated story behind it, which we won't be able to remember anyhow..::)

I know: it is partly a lack of systematic numbering on my part, also due to the fact that I'm clinging to my book rather than use a print-out. I will do better in future. My suggestion was not meant as a criticism and maybe there is no way around the scrolling because anyone of us at a given time may want to return to a former statement or question.
Yes -- lots of reason for depression... With ZAL we have come away from Wang Er's accounts of cruelty and unending monastic insurrections ;-) but no closer to lighthearted, I think. Have you ever read something sunny and happy in modern Chinese literature?
The redmouth quote --I will see whether it is worth the effort. But you know how tough such short explanations can be. The economy of the Chinese language can pinch!!

Yes, I thought it was time again to make some propaganda.

We are doing very well, but it would be nice to have one or two more people here. I doubt that we could get more than that, I don't think that reading Chinese literature will ever draw a big crowd...

I agree that there is a lot of scrolling up and down now.. I think it would be easier to find quotations if you refered to passages by numbers, instead of describing in words the context where they occur. Maybe I should subdivide the paragraphs further, to make references more precise? Numbering lines individually perhaps?

1.7 (beginning) I googled 怪只怪, and came up with sentences where it obviously means "You can blame noone but .." There were also some sentences with the more easily understood form 要怪只能怪自己 etc..

1.7(middle) To sum up your work : 你们死了儿子，也是我害了你们伤了阴骘= "If you child would die, it would be because I harmed you and hurt your karma" sounds convincing.

My dictionary has 赤口白舌= squabble over nothing, I won't timetravel to Songchao in order to find out why, but if Liansuo already made the trip, I'd love to hear what she has come up with.

1.8 (middle) I was just thinking that 三嫂 was very quiet during the previous discussion, that led my thoughts towards a depression. Also, all these women have good reason to be depressed... Nothing more.

1.8 (end) I believe that Liansuo has the correct interpretation of "說聲走，一撒手就走了".

Marcel, I just read the article you made available over at Cpod -- the translator interview. I like what is said there enormously and am swept by a wave of literary passion as well as anxiety to "just do it"- yes, I know there is indeed no better way of reading a book than translating it. And that is what makes our team-work here such fun. Thank you for all your initiatives!

Having been obsessed with Chinese for the past sixteen years or so, most of my present fervor is the joy of finally having not only one but two people to share the fun with -- and as regards strong language--- you know I was kidding. In my mind "politically correct" can be as bad as labeling - in its own way.

And now the famous scene at the house of the 白 family: One problem I can solve thanks to my dictionary but only as far as meaning goes, not as to word history: the "female dark stallion" means the same as 陰 德, which is sort of like positive karma -- good deeds that are or will be rewarded. This is to be understood as the return to old Three fearing to be punished for his role ... see below.

The redmouthwhitetongue... I found the saying in another dictionary but it is such a complicated story, I am breaking my teeth on it, all quotes and oldfashioned language dating back to Song times. As to the meaning of the passage I see it just the way you both do: Number Six is accused of bringing ill luck to the child because she openly talks of death in response to the hint that because he has helped and abetted to sever her nuptial ties, old Three might be punished by losing his progeny. Remember the lessons at Chinesepod about peipeipei! lots of superstition!

I suppose that a 碎 嘴子 is rather worse than a chatterbox -- more like "running one's mouth".

What I would like your thoughts on is Brother Four -- did he take public funds 公 帳 to finance his escapades ?( Marcel, don't be too lenient on him! Of course life also sucked for men, but his reactions are not the greatest!) And was his wife shamed by that -- was he found out? Or is this still all just within the family? And why does she let Wife Three run the house-- is that not normal, since Three is the older brother? Is it implied that she should help her more?

As to the 神 精 不 濟 of Wife Three-- I found the translation "to be useful, helpful" for 濟 and think that she is just not the strongest, not cut out to run the house. Or did you read on and thus come up with the diagnosis of depression, Marcel?

As to stairs: I think they were narrow and steep, but what increased the difficulties are bound feet and overweight in old women and of course sickness - as in 白太太 's case.

I was puzzled by the 怪 只 怪 我 -- now I have come up with: " If blame must be put, it all falls on me being such a decent guy and offering my sister a home although we can scarcely afford it... "Can you see it that way, too? (I have thus far lived on intuition but I am very happy to learn some hard and fast grammar or other rules!!)

The 說 聲 走， 一 撒手 就 走 了 I gather to be: "Say one word go! and I just loosen my grip and do go" --- meaning that she knows she is close to death and ready. And please -- do you too interpret the 領個 孩子 過活 as "Raise a child (i.e. the nephew she should adopt in the dead ex's family) and make this your life/ livelihood" ... ? With which it is obvious that the mother is on the side of brother Four.

Gosh, it is lunch time... You know, I sometimes wonder whether we should move in on smaller passages - just say, one of the paragraphs and all at the same time. I am still struggling with making my response/question mechanisms more efficient. And sometimes I admire you two for rapping out all those characters -- maybe you have the smarter system. With mine it can take a lot of "scrolling up and down" before I find what I want. 再 見!

Couldn't resist.

It just came to me that everything might come together if we read 四奶奶 as saying to 流苏, "With your insignificant squabbling you have put a curse on my child..."

What do you two think?

And Marcel, you couldn't have been more right about "dear" 四奶奶.

Obsession is one thing, vulgar language is another. I repent my own vulgarity and promise to temper my words, even when they're directed at fictional characters. : )

The Giants just won the Super Bowl in the last 29 seconds of the game and Manhattan is going wild - or that's my excuse for staying up and taking a stab at one little sentence here.

I can't account for the 赤口白舌 part. Neither my dictionary nor Yellowbridge are any help. But I think what's going on here is that after 流苏 loses it and says OK, everything's my fault... if you're poor it's because I ate you into poverty...if your children die it's because I harmed you and injured 阴骘 (no idea on this one - I really don't think it means dark stallion - although one could translate the words individually that way!).

Anyway, at that point, I think 四奶奶 grabs her own son by the collar and bumps his head into 流苏 (把他的头去撞流苏) and says to 流苏 "赤口白舌, you've put a curse on my child (I think the 起来 goes with咒 to make up put a curse on), just based on your (流苏's) sentence [what you've just said] if my child dies I'll have to go look for you [meaning I'll hold you responsible]". 流苏 then turns to the rather ineffectual 四哥, who says we can talk it through, but then (I think) leaves it all up to 三哥 to decide (三哥这都是为你打算). 流苏 feels wrong and acts rashly (赌气) throws up her hands and leaves the room.

OK the masses seem to have settled and so should I.

Adieu!

I don't think that you can learn Chinese without being obsessed, so that's good.

I am a little worried that I broke all the rules in the "comments policy" below with my statements about the fourth lady.

I am really beginning to be very amused. Marcel, although you are not yet ready to admit it - you are quite obsessed, too! And Kathy, sneaking peeks... OK, I just got to where our heroine seeks comfort with her mother. Yes, I am sure from the name that she is the mother of the two men and of girl number six. Also I do not have the slightest doubt that Marcel's politically incorrect term fully applies to Fourth Lady. Remember the dynamics between the women in the Red Lantern movie? Yes, it must have sucked, as Kathy says, to be a woman and live squeezed in between so many competing relatives and downright rivals. And no computer to amuse yourself with... Tomorrow I may submit a few of my tough passages to your joint wisdom, but for tonight--until later!

OK, OK. It's a total addiction. I'm sneaking a peak here just before going into a meeting. I like Japanese fan, liansuo, it beats the heck out of the big- -brother-is-watching-you shadow. I must admit to being quite proud of my garden miracle - I took the picture in my garden, and it's a special day lily bred and named for my dad's late wife.

Back to our saga. I'm so glad to be corrected on 四奶奶's true nature. It's good to have a clearly identified bitch in the story, and to know that we'll soon be meeting 白流苏's mother. And it's good to not be a woman in traditional China!

I'll try to squeeze in some more time later tonight. Working on the train with a small dictionary and a magnifying glass made me appreciate my annotator all the more.

K.

We do know from the start of paragraph 1.8 that 白流苏's mother is 白老太太, and I am assuming that 白老太太 is the mother of the two brothers.

I completely disgree with Kathy about 四奶奶... As I read it, she is blaming 流苏 for all misfortunes of both families. And it seems to me that 流苏 takes it that way : in 1.7 she says "好，好，都是我的不是！你们穷了，是我把你们吃穷了" etc..

You are making me feel a lot better, Kathy, with both your admission and demonstration of symptoms similar to my own. Let's wait then and join CA together and for now just see what ZAL is doing for us.
And Marcel: I am beginning to wonder what I can do for you - is there a way to beam chocolate through the internet? Where do I click? ;-) In any case -- thank you for the help with the avatar. BTW - this is no competitor for Kathy's garden miracle -- it is a Japanese fan.

Oops, I signed off too soon.

Thanks, Marcel for fixing the 2.4 glitch. I now have all of Chapters 1 and 2 on my computer, as does liansuo, so you can take them down if you think it will cause problems.

Thanks, liansuo, for the dictionary tip - I'll try to get my hands on one. My current one just isn't enough - though it's fun to see how among the three of us using different resources we manage to cobble things together.

Now I'm really off to the swamp.

I could stop anytime I wanted to...really! OK, so I'm addicted (and a natural addict at that, oh no!). I've admitted it. Now can I continue?

I just checked in to see what was up, and will try to print some stuff to take with me on the train.

I'll have to see Raise the Red Lantern again. I know it was quite common to have concubines, so the "indefensible" wild guess seemed way off even as I wrote it.

It makes total sense to me that "没 一 _ 半 _" means none. THANK YOU.

I'm also thrilled to have the "jinx" definition of comet - makes sense now.

Yes, Marcel's pointers on overall context and themes (e.g. traditional ways and modern law, old customs/morals and a new sense of rights, and just plain how much it sucked to be a woman in China) are VERY helpful. Keep them coming.

Are we sure 四奶奶's being such a bitch here? She's the one who jumped in and said 三爷 shouldn't even be bringing up the issue of money with kin, and if he did it would be a long conversation. Then she launches into how the family wronged 白流苏 on the money issue. It seems to me the "jinx" comment could be more sympathetic than accusatory/dismissive. But I could also have the whole tone wrong.

And do we know who's daughter 白流苏 is? Have I missed something really basic here?

Looking forward to forging ahead. I'm a little worried that I'm having such fun with this, but am grateful to you both for feeding the addiction!

Off to the swamp... Yes, liansuo, I think you can safely avoid CA for a while longer. :)

K

To change your avatar, click on "My profile" at top right of this page, then click on "Account", and now you can upload a picture.

I fixed the glitch in 2.4 - one character had gone missing.

1.5 I suppose liansuo is right about the concubines, that they are not going to play widows. It seems that the situation is so obvious (自然) to 三爷 that he does not have to explain it to us in details...

My dictionary has : 一男半女 yīnán-bànnǚ n. a few children. (not NO children - I suppose that liansuo meant "没一this半that"= none) Could this somehow be related to 一年半载[---載] yīnián-bànzǎi n. around a year?

My impression is that Zhang is acutely aware of women's plight in traditional society, and that she is subtle, so mabe she had a purpose with that half girl.

In "家私不剩什么了" I assume that 剩 means "remains", "Of the family property, nothing remains"

1.6 I read the story about 白流苏's money as Kathy does, and to support it I have

天生 ¹tiānshēng attr. born; inborn; innate

扫帚星[掃--] sàozhouxīng n. ①〈astr.〉 comet ②〈derog.〉 a person (esp. a woman) who brings ill luck; jinx

(that 四奶奶 is a 天生的 bitch!)

这话可就长了 "There is a lot to say about that" ?

1.7 怪只怪 我是个血性汉子= ? The entire sentence containing this is somewhat mysterious to me.

我害了你们伤了阴骘 What does 阴骘 mean? "Secretly"? "I secretly harmed you"?

赤口白舌的咒起孩子来了 Dictionary: 赤口白舌 chìkǒubáishé f.e. squabble over nothing

"Are you cursing my child because of this unimportant tiff?" I am confused by the 起 and the 来了 .

Now 流苏 turns to 四爷, where she hopes she can get at least a little support. He does not have much to offer.

(It's remarkable how well we already know these persons..:)

1.8 "双膝一软" she felt weak in the knees ?

碎嘴子 suìzuǐzi v.o. 〈topo.〉 jabber; prate ◆n. 〈coll.〉 chatterbox

Chatterbox... Hmm.. I have already stated what I would alternatively call dear 四奶奶.

狂嫖滥赌的 With that wife, it's no wonder...:)

你三嫂精神又不济 Coming from 白老太太, who is so intent on smoothing things out, this does not sound very good. Maybe 三嫂 is depressive?

动拼西凑 Should this be "东拼西凑" - scrape together?

说声走，一撒手就走了 I don't know what she means....

Anyhow, in the last sentence, she tells 流苏 to do what her brother suggests.

1.9 宝络 is the name of 七妹.

白替她操了心 Here 操心 is "worry about", and 替 probably "on behalf of", but what about 白? In vain?

她不是我亲生的 "She is not born of my family" I think that we will learn later exactly what 七妹 is.

龙井 must be longjing (green) tea. It seems that 老太太 prefers to discuss the tea.

Also, it seems to be quite difficult to get up and down the stairs in this house.

1.10 别由着性儿闹 - maybe "由着性儿" = "in an egoistic way"

I suppose that 四奶奶 is worried about how much 宝络 has overheard?

Now I'll take a rest from Eileen Zhang for today..:) Have a good swamp Kathy, and don't go near CA liansuo.

Marcel, I just want to let you know that I have my copy of your Chapter 2, too and that you are free to unload our site and give us space for our outpourings of questions and answers. And, like Kathy, I am far from done with Chapter 1. It is nice chewy stuff, isn't it?

Something stupid which has been bothering me for a while: can you tell me how to escape my gloomy avatar? It was easy over at the pod site, but here I do not see how I can influence my sinister image... I remain computer-challenged and grateful for your help! :-)

I think this is addiction-- by which I am diagnosing myself...
Kathy, if this is your debut into the world of internet group learning, you are a natural. I am in the same boat, but see above... lost... addicted...and often unsure of the way I come across.

2.Let me try to respond to your question re 守 不 住: my understanding is that one typical use of this word concerns the behaviour of widows, i.e. to stay in the man's family and never marry again. It is probably a Confucian virtue and distinguishes the woman as truly faithful and noble. But that -- remain in this state of unending mourning -- is what the concubines in question do most likely not want to do -- also. I suppose, it is not expected of them. As regards the number of concubines -- mabe we will yet find out what the society in our story thinks of this phenomenon. It was not unusual -- have you seen "Raise the Red Lantern"? (I obviously get my wisdom from movies...)

1. I found that the construction "一 this 半 that" means "none " and is not limited to boys and girls. But of course, I also immediately reacted to the half girl!

I interpret the 多 心 as you do, as "taking it amiss" if she is not taken in by her family. As far as I have read that was a normal consequence of a divorce and I truly wonder what else she could have done. But it was certainly a loss of status. I think Marcel is right in pointing out that this story is about traditional ways and modern law, old customs/morals and a new sense of rights. Pointers of this kind are very useful to me.

Thank you for the work on the paragraphs ahead. We are like a pack of hunting dogs in hot pursuit of the elusive prey!! You asked about dictionaries. I find that for the Zhang Ailing story I am constantly in need of my 古 今漢 語 詞 典，商 務 印 書 館，北 京， 2000 年. Maybe you can find a way to look at one -- I think it is very good, but of course -- it is all in Chinese and that makes me very slow consulting it.

While you are working your way out of the swamp, Marcel will certainly come up with a load of newest findings - and if I don't join ChineseAnon. soon, we will both be waiting for you here!

Hi, Marcel.

I just cut and pasted Chapter 2 (not that I've finished Ch. 1!) and saw this little glitch in section 2.4 心里一□ '7d刺痛，

K.

Desperate, lost and in need of rescue--oh my! (said Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz).

We do seem to be a motivated, if small, group. I have nothing to compare with as this is my first foray into this kind of web-based interaction.

Yes, Marcel, definitely take Chapter 1 off. I'll also cut and paste Chapter 2 tonight, so you can take that off once Liansuo has downloaded it.

Well, I've made it through 1.6 and a have a few thoughts and more questions!

1. (1.4) Yellowbridge has the whole phrase 倒也是 dao4ye3shi4 translated as “that’s true (indicating concession)”, which makes sense here.

2. (1.5) 守不住的 { 他丢下的那两个姨奶奶，自然是守不住的。} I keep trying this from different angles. At first I thought he’d given up his two concubines. Now I’m pretty sure they’re talking about the two concubines he left behind when he died. I can’t find any 守不住 combination, but maybe--since 守 means to guard or defend-- it means that the two concubines are defenseless now that he’s dead. What do you think? I was also thinking that it might mean it was indefensible for him to have two concubines. Who knows?

3. (1.5) 没生下一男半女 I understand generally that this means that 白流苏 didn’t have any sons or daughters. But I can’t find this construction anywhere. What’s the 半女 part? That fact that a daughter is considered half (if that!) as valuable as a son?

4. (1.5) 家私不剩什么了 I’m pretty sure this means that the family property (the dead guy’s) doesn’t amount to much, or there isn’t much left of the family property. But I’d like to have a clearer understanding of 剩 here.

5. (1.5) 我只怕你多了心，只当我们不肯收容你. Would you translate this as “I was just afraid of your oversensitivity (suspicions?) if (?) we weren’t willing/able to accommodate you. What’s the function of 当?

6. (1.6) Regarding 白流苏’s money.

It seems to me that 四奶奶 is telling 三爷 that she kept telling her husband (老四) to get into the stock market or into gold—but 不能用六奶奶的钱, because that would bring bad luck (晦气). Then it says as soon as 白流苏 married into her husband’s family, he became a wastrel/spendthrift (败家子) [Was he spending her money or his own?). When she returned to her own family (娘家) the family she saw (眼见得娘家) was nearly broke (就要败光了). Then there’s this weird reference to a heaven-born comet – any help here (天生的扫帚星)?

Then 三爷 says that what 四奶奶 is saying is reasonable. If at that time (back then) we hadn’t made her (白流苏) enter the stock market, then it things wouldn’t have reached the point of financial disaster (is that more or less what 决不至于弄得一败涂地 means?).

So, it would seem her family used her money to (or made her) play the stock market with bad results. 我们那时候，如果没让她入股子，决不至于弄得一败涂地！

That’s about all I can do for now. I’ll try to do more tomorrow. After that I’ll be swamped with work and traveling so I might be a little scarce for awhile. Know that I’ll be trying to keep up!

K.

P.S. I’m pretty sure that the 没的 （pronounced muh de) in 没的沾上了晦气 is Shanghai/Nanjing regional dialect for 沒有。On the other hand, this phrase (没的沾上了晦气) is still a little mysterious to me. It seems that 没的 is being used more in the sense of 不要 be infected with bad luck. I would oh so welcome enlightenment on this and any other things I’ve misunderstood!

Kathy, thank you for the sweet welcome. Yeah, Marcel could tell you, I was quite dramatically desperate and lost and needed rescuing. All the more wonderful to be back with the two of you now. And what a furiously active, motivated lot we are!! Marcel, as far as I am concerned you can take the text off the site. I have copied it. Just so we do not provoke disaster again!

Hi, Liansuo! Good to have you back. I hate to think of you waiting quietly in the bleak far reaches of cyberspace. Good, too, to have your read on the family situation - I'm just barely getting into paragraph 1.4 so this helps a lot. And another take on 不問 也 罷...

Now that we're the three musketeers again, I'm going to dig in and try to get through 1.10.

Goodness -- so much for quietly waiting in a bleak corner of cyberspace! You two are furiously working here! Welcome back, Kathy, and hi, Marcel --- and thanks for the text and all the helpful explanations and thought-provoking questions which keep me from skimming over the difficult passages.

Now let me see what I can contribute so far and let me refer to Marcel's numbers first.

1.1 The musical instrument: I am about to re-watch a Chinese movie in which I remember there is a performance with a huqin and I believe a 板 at least which is the rhythm-giving instrument mentioned in the expression "off beat" here. Maybe I'll see something useful to enlighten us further-- maybe also someone with a jade nose!

1.2. I agree with Marcel: as far as I know from my collected readings about old Chinese society we are in the household of two brothers, Number Three. the older one and thus more powerful, and Four with their two wives (and children mentioned in passing). The main character, Sister Number Six returned to the family a few years ago after an ugly divorce. There are also sisters Seven and Eight, obviously unmarried.

I believe as Kathy does, that Brother Number Four is shown swatting a mosquito. The "from the dark into the light place" bothered me too at first, it sounded so like a standing expression, but I now tend to think that it is purely situational.

Marcel is certainly right about the 姨 奶 妳 being concubines. Ｉam am not sure either about the 守不 住 -- could it simply mean that they are quite unlikely to stay there and go through all the mourning processes -- which leaves the stage to the ex-wife to go and take the place of the chief mourner 戴 孝主喪 - this might be a process of at least a year which also implies that she can never marry another man ! (At least that was the proper thing to do ... maybe not binding any more in the 20th century). Another traditional thing she could do, as her brothers think, is to adopt a nephew since she had no children with the divorced husband and thus continue his family posthumously for which, always in her brothers' kind planning, the other clan will keep her and the little adoptive boy 母 子 fed and housed,

1.3 I have come across the saying about the 鬼 before. It goes: When you live you are a member of his (husband's) family, when you are dead you will be a ghost of his family, All to say: You belong to them no matter what and forever. The same idea is behind the saying of the tree and the leaves which return to the roots.

Please doubt me ruthlessly -- I am throwing all this out for you to discuss with no further ado -- but it may be wrong. I have not read the story yet and may change my mind. Ah -- I feel the strange 不問 也 罷 could be a sorrowful: Better not to ask ... because it is all so sad ...

KL 2-2-08 thoughts

1.2 Thanks, Marcel for the 说不尽 “with much to tell” and 也罢 "it's all right" constructions. My dictionary has neither. I’m going to take this a step further and suggest another sense of 尽 : at the very furthest end of. So maybe the 胡琴 has unending bleak tales to tell (or will never come to the end of telling its bleak tales) so it does not matter if you pay attention to it. 说不尽的苍凉的故事──不问也罢！ (Very much like 'Days of Our Lives'!)

I, too, wonder about the Cpod intro instrument, and find myself humming those four notes throughout the day – not always at the most appropriate times.

1.3 Good to know the family name is 白, I was suffering under the delusion that they all lived in the White Hotel! (It’s only missing the Swan to be the White Swan Hotel).

1.4　 急切间不知他们说些什么”in such a hurry they (or maybe just 四爷) didn’t know what all they were saying.” I think 间 here has the function of “in the midst of.” …“in (the midst of) all their haste didn’t know what they were saying.” My dictionary has one sample sentence with this construction, but translates it as “on such short notice.” 急切间找不着適當的人: cannot find the right person on such short notice.

背过手去 三爷…揸开两腿站在门槛上，背过手去，啪啦啪啦扑打股际的蚊子. Looking at the whole sentence, I think 背过手去 means with the back of the hand. So 三爷 is standing at/on the door sill with his legs apart pa-pa-pa-la slapping at the mosquitoes on the edge of his thigh with the back of his hand.

I’ll try to get into 1.4 and 1.5 this afternoon – have to go to a rehearsal now. I’m really enjoying this, thanks!

K.

P.S. I don't know much about traditional Chinese society, but we can try to figure it out, and maybe some kind soul will come help us.

This will be a mixture of my own problems and responses to Kathy's.

I guess I should admit that I had been reading this piece on the sly before suggesting it to you, so I do know a a little about how it continues.

1.1 It seems there exists lots of different types of "胡琴". It made me wonder about which instrument plays the four note tune at the start of every Chinese Pod dialogue? A "胡琴" is bowed, so that is probably not it - except that you must be able to pluck it too, like when you play pizzicato on a violin.

I am sure that the Kathy's version "They’ve strayed off the beat and can’t keep up with the music of life.” is correct.

1.2 First family member: "四爷". Soon we will also meet a "三爷", a "三奶奶" and a "四奶奶". I am not sure how these numbers are handed out, but my understanding is that in this family 三爷 and 四爷 are brothers, and that there wives get the corresponding numbers, so that 三奶奶 is the wife of 三爷. Probably this is a general system for naming family members? I don't think that any of those wives are concubines, but lets get back to that when we know them better.

My dictionary has 说不尽 = with much to tell, which could fit here. 也罢 can mean "it's all right", so maybe we have "It does not matter if you pay attention to it"? ("It does not matter if you see todays episode of 'days of our life', you know what's in it anyhow"?)

I believe that the two pieces of rouge are still on the face of the actor who should have been performing the song, and that 琼瑶鼻 means his "jade nose"? (that "jade nose" sounds a little silly in translation, but still?)
Maybe I am missing something here.

1.3 The name of our family is "白" .

1.4 急切间不知他们说些什么 Here I have a problem with the function of 间. 六小姐 will turn out to be the main character of the story. I don't think that we can tell from the text yet who or what 七小姐 and 八小姐 are, but we will hear more about them.

三房的孩子们 must mean "the children of 三爷 and 三奶奶". "暗处看亮处" I suspect that this is both concretely (it is dark on the balcony) but also socially - Later we will find out that 四爷 is in difficulties in the family. 背过手去 = ?? "六妹" is what 三爷 calls 六小姐. I believe that she actually is the sister of the 三爷 and 四爷. 照说呢，倒也是应该 I'm not sure what 倒 means, maybe "still"? "According to custom, it still is necessary?" 白流苏 is the name of 六小姐.

1.5 Now we are getting into lots of questions about traditional Chinese society, I hope that you know more about this than I do..:)

I believe that 三爷 is the head of the family, so his opinions are important. 姨奶奶 Those are probably concubines - the 姨 differentiates them from wives. 自然是守不住的 Does it mean that it won't do that the 姨奶奶 are in charge of the funeral? Or just that they are in deep problems now? 回去替他戴孝主丧 Why would 流苏 "represent him" (替他) at his own funeral?

In the discussion 流苏 seeks support in the law, 三爷 in 三纲五常, so this is modern society against traditional. Right now, we are talking about the legality of divorces, or what? I have the impression that traditional society accept divorces - is this correct?

你生是他家的人死是他家的鬼 Hmm.. A 鬼 is usually an evil thing... what is the meaning here?

流苏 says that the family has used up all her money. Is she talking about her dowry? Was it returned at the divorce?

The novella by Zhang Ailing does not have any chapters, it's just in one big chunk. I am making the numbering up, for easier reference. Please make a copy of the text, so that I can take it down again when we move on...:)