Chapter 1
marcelbdt
February 01, 2008, 03:47 PM posted in General DiscussionChapter 1 of "倾城之恋" by 张爱玲.
Strictly speaking, this story does not have any subdivisions, but I have arbitrarily divided it into chapters. Each chapter is subdivided in paragraphs, so that 1.2 refers to paragraph 2 of chapter 1.
If you want to participate in the discussion, obtain the text somehow.
The first "chapter" starts at "上海为了'节省天光'"，contains 10 paragraphs, and ends with "我还有三分廉耻呢！"
klgardensong
February 04, 2008, 04:06 AMObsession is one thing, vulgar language is another. I repent my own vulgarity and promise to temper my words, even when they're directed at fictional characters. : )
The Giants just won the Super Bowl in the last 29 seconds of the game and Manhattan is going wild - or that's my excuse for staying up and taking a stab at one little sentence here.
I can't account for the 赤口白舌 part. Neither my dictionary nor Yellowbridge are any help. But I think what's going on here is that after 流苏 loses it and says OK, everything's my fault... if you're poor it's because I ate you into poverty...if your children die it's because I harmed you and injured 阴骘 (no idea on this one - I really don't think it means dark stallion - although one could translate the words individually that way!).
Anyway, at that point, I think 四奶奶 grabs her own son by the collar and bumps his head into 流苏 (把他的头去撞流苏) and says to 流苏 "赤口白舌, you've put a curse on my child (I think the 起来 goes with咒 to make up put a curse on), just based on your (流苏's) sentence [what you've just said] if my child dies I'll have to go look for you [meaning I'll hold you responsible]". 流苏 then turns to the rather ineffectual 四哥, who says we can talk it through, but then (I think) leaves it all up to 三哥 to decide (三哥这都是为你打算). 流苏 feels wrong and acts rashly (赌气) throws up her hands and leaves the room.
OK the masses seem to have settled and so should I.
Adieu!
klgardensong
February 02, 2008, 02:45 PMKL 2-2-08 thoughts
1.2 Thanks, Marcel for the 说不尽 “with much to tell” and 也罢 "it's all right" constructions. My dictionary has neither. I’m going to take this a step further and suggest another sense of 尽 : at the very furthest end of. So maybe the 胡琴 has unending bleak tales to tell (or will never come to the end of telling its bleak tales) so it does not matter if you pay attention to it. 说不尽的苍凉的故事──不问也罢！ (Very much like 'Days of Our Lives'!)
I, too, wonder about the Cpod intro instrument, and find myself humming those four notes throughout the day – not always at the most appropriate times.
1.3 Good to know the family name is 白, I was suffering under the delusion that they all lived in the White Hotel! (It’s only missing the Swan to be the White Swan Hotel).
1.4 急切间不知他们说些什么”in such a hurry they (or maybe just 四爷) didn’t know what all they were saying.” I think 间 here has the function of “in the midst of.” …“in (the midst of) all their haste didn’t know what they were saying.” My dictionary has one sample sentence with this construction, but translates it as “on such short notice.” 急切间找不着適當的人: cannot find the right person on such short notice.
背过手去 三爷…揸开两腿站在门槛上，背过手去，啪啦啪啦扑打股际的蚊子. Looking at the whole sentence, I think 背过手去 means with the back of the hand. So 三爷 is standing at/on the door sill with his legs apart pa-pa-pa-la slapping at the mosquitoes on the edge of his thigh with the back of his hand.
I’ll try to get into 1.4 and 1.5 this afternoon – have to go to a rehearsal now. I’m really enjoying this, thanks!
K.
P.S. I don't know much about traditional Chinese society, but we can try to figure it out, and maybe some kind soul will come help us.
liansuo
February 02, 2008, 05:57 PMGoodness -- so much for quietly waiting in a bleak corner of cyberspace! You two are furiously working here! Welcome back, Kathy, and hi, Marcel --- and thanks for the text and all the helpful explanations and thought-provoking questions which keep me from skimming over the difficult passages.
Now let me see what I can contribute so far and let me refer to Marcel's numbers first.
1.1 The musical instrument: I am about to re-watch a Chinese movie in which I remember there is a performance with a huqin and I believe a 板 at least which is the rhythm-giving instrument mentioned in the expression "off beat" here. Maybe I'll see something useful to enlighten us further-- maybe also someone with a jade nose!
1.2. I agree with Marcel: as far as I know from my collected readings about old Chinese society we are in the household of two brothers, Number Three. the older one and thus more powerful, and Four with their two wives (and children mentioned in passing). The main character, Sister Number Six returned to the family a few years ago after an ugly divorce. There are also sisters Seven and Eight, obviously unmarried.
I believe as Kathy does, that Brother Number Four is shown swatting a mosquito. The "from the dark into the light place" bothered me too at first, it sounded so like a standing expression, but I now tend to think that it is purely situational.
Marcel is certainly right about the 姨 奶 妳 being concubines. Ｉam am not sure either about the 守不 住 -- could it simply mean that they are quite unlikely to stay there and go through all the mourning processes -- which leaves the stage to the ex-wife to go and take the place of the chief mourner 戴 孝主喪 - this might be a process of at least a year which also implies that she can never marry another man ! (At least that was the proper thing to do ... maybe not binding any more in the 20th century). Another traditional thing she could do, as her brothers think, is to adopt a nephew since she had no children with the divorced husband and thus continue his family posthumously for which, always in her brothers' kind planning, the other clan will keep her and the little adoptive boy 母 子 fed and housed,
1.3 I have come across the saying about the 鬼 before. It goes: When you live you are a member of his (husband's) family, when you are dead you will be a ghost of his family, All to say: You belong to them no matter what and forever. The same idea is behind the saying of the tree and the leaves which return to the roots.
Please doubt me ruthlessly -- I am throwing all this out for you to discuss with no further ado -- but it may be wrong. I have not read the story yet and may change my mind. Ah -- I feel the strange 不問 也 罷 could be a sorrowful: Better not to ask ... because it is all so sad ...
klgardensong
February 02, 2008, 06:28 PMHi, Liansuo! Good to have you back. I hate to think of you waiting quietly in the bleak far reaches of cyberspace. Good, too, to have your read on the family situation - I'm just barely getting into paragraph 1.4 so this helps a lot. And another take on 不問 也 罷...
Now that we're the three musketeers again, I'm going to dig in and try to get through 1.10.
liansuo
February 02, 2008, 06:53 PMKathy, thank you for the sweet welcome. Yeah, Marcel could tell you, I was quite dramatically desperate and lost and needed rescuing. All the more wonderful to be back with the two of you now. And what a furiously active, motivated lot we are!! Marcel, as far as I am concerned you can take the text off the site. I have copied it. Just so we do not provoke disaster again!
klgardensong
February 02, 2008, 11:53 PMDesperate, lost and in need of rescue--oh my! (said Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz).
We do seem to be a motivated, if small, group. I have nothing to compare with as this is my first foray into this kind of web-based interaction.
Yes, Marcel, definitely take Chapter 1 off. I'll also cut and paste Chapter 2 tonight, so you can take that off once Liansuo has downloaded it.
Well, I've made it through 1.6 and a have a few thoughts and more questions!
(1.4) Yellowbridge has the whole phrase 倒也是 dao4ye3shi4 translated as “that’s true (indicating concession)”, which makes sense here.
(1.5) 守不住的 { 他丢下的那两个姨奶奶，自然是守不住的。} I keep trying this from different angles. At first I thought he’d given up his two concubines. Now I’m pretty sure they’re talking about the two concubines he left behind when he died. I can’t find any 守不住 combination, but maybe--since 守 means to guard or defend-- it means that the two concubines are defenseless now that he’s dead. What do you think? I was also thinking that it might mean it was indefensible for him to have two concubines. Who knows?
(1.5) 没生下一男半女 I understand generally that this means that 白流苏 didn’t have any sons or daughters. But I can’t find this construction anywhere. What’s the 半女 part? That fact that a daughter is considered half (if that!) as valuable as a son?
(1.5) 家私不剩什么了 I’m pretty sure this means that the family property (the dead guy’s) doesn’t amount to much, or there isn’t much left of the family property. But I’d like to have a clearer understanding of 剩 here.
(1.5) 我只怕你多了心，只当我们不肯收容你. Would you translate this as “I was just afraid of your oversensitivity (suspicions?) if (?) we weren’t willing/able to accommodate you. What’s the function of 当?
(1.6) Regarding 白流苏’s money.
It seems to me that 四奶奶 is telling 三爷 that she kept telling her husband (老四) to get into the stock market or into gold—but 不能用六奶奶的钱, because that would bring bad luck (晦气). Then it says as soon as 白流苏 married into her husband’s family, he became a wastrel/spendthrift (败家子) [Was he spending her money or his own?). When she returned to her own family (娘家) the family she saw (眼见得娘家) was nearly broke (就要败光了). Then there’s this weird reference to a heaven-born comet – any help here (天生的扫帚星)?
Then 三爷 says that what 四奶奶 is saying is reasonable. If at that time (back then) we hadn’t made her (白流苏) enter the stock market, then it things wouldn’t have reached the point of financial disaster (is that more or less what 决不至于弄得一败涂地 means?).
So, it would seem her family used her money to (or made her) play the stock market with bad results. 我们那时候，如果没让她入股子，决不至于弄得一败涂地！
That’s about all I can do for now. I’ll try to do more tomorrow. After that I’ll be swamped with work and traveling so I might be a little scarce for awhile. Know that I’ll be trying to keep up!
K.
P.S. I’m pretty sure that the 没的 （pronounced muh de) in 没的沾上了晦气 is Shanghai/Nanjing regional dialect for 沒有。On the other hand, this phrase (没的沾上了晦气) is still a little mysterious to me. It seems that 没的 is being used more in the sense of 不要 be infected with bad luck. I would oh so welcome enlightenment on this and any other things I’ve misunderstood!
klgardensong
February 03, 2008, 12:10 AMHi, Marcel.
I just cut and pasted Chapter 2 (not that I've finished Ch. 1!) and saw this little glitch in section 2.4 心里一□ '7d刺痛，
K.
liansuo
February 03, 2008, 09:48 AMI think this is addiction-- by which I am diagnosing myself...
Kathy, if this is your debut into the world of internet group learning, you are a natural. I am in the same boat, but see above... lost... addicted...and often unsure of the way I come across.
2.Let me try to respond to your question re 守 不 住: my understanding is that one typical use of this word concerns the behaviour of widows, i.e. to stay in the man's family and never marry again. It is probably a Confucian virtue and distinguishes the woman as truly faithful and noble. But that -- remain in this state of unending mourning -- is what the concubines in question do most likely not want to do -- also. I suppose, it is not expected of them. As regards the number of concubines -- mabe we will yet find out what the society in our story thinks of this phenomenon. It was not unusual -- have you seen "Raise the Red Lantern"? (I obviously get my wisdom from movies...)
- I found that the construction "一 this 半 that" means "none " and is not limited to boys and girls. But of course, I also immediately reacted to the half girl!
I interpret the 多 心 as you do, as "taking it amiss" if she is not taken in by her family. As far as I have read that was a normal consequence of a divorce and I truly wonder what else she could have done. But it was certainly a loss of status. I think Marcel is right in pointing out that this story is about traditional ways and modern law, old customs/morals and a new sense of rights. Pointers of this kind are very useful to me.
Thank you for the work on the paragraphs ahead. We are like a pack of hunting dogs in hot pursuit of the elusive prey!! You asked about dictionaries. I find that for the Zhang Ailing story I am constantly in need of my 古 今漢 語 詞 典，商 務 印 書 館，北 京， 2000 年. Maybe you can find a way to look at one -- I think it is very good, but of course -- it is all in Chinese and that makes me very slow consulting it.
While you are working your way out of the swamp, Marcel will certainly come up with a load of newest findings - and if I don't join ChineseAnon. soon, we will both be waiting for you here!
liansuo
February 03, 2008, 11:26 AMMarcel, I just want to let you know that I have my copy of your Chapter 2, too and that you are free to unload our site and give us space for our outpourings of questions and answers. And, like Kathy, I am far from done with Chapter 1. It is nice chewy stuff, isn't it?
Something stupid which has been bothering me for a while: can you tell me how to escape my gloomy avatar? It was easy over at the pod site, but here I do not see how I can influence my sinister image... I remain computer-challenged and grateful for your help! :-)
marcelbdt
February 02, 2008, 12:45 PMThis will be a mixture of my own problems and responses to Kathy's.
I guess I should admit that I had been reading this piece on the sly before suggesting it to you, so I do know a a little about how it continues.
1.1 It seems there exists lots of different types of "胡琴". It made me wonder about which instrument plays the four note tune at the start of every Chinese Pod dialogue? A "胡琴" is bowed, so that is probably not it - except that you must be able to pluck it too, like when you play pizzicato on a violin.
I am sure that the Kathy's version "They’ve strayed off the beat and can’t keep up with the music of life.” is correct.
1.2 First family member: "四爷". Soon we will also meet a "三爷", a "三奶奶" and a "四奶奶". I am not sure how these numbers are handed out, but my understanding is that in this family 三爷 and 四爷 are brothers, and that there wives get the corresponding numbers, so that 三奶奶 is the wife of 三爷. Probably this is a general system for naming family members? I don't think that any of those wives are concubines, but lets get back to that when we know them better.
My dictionary has 说不尽 = with much to tell, which could fit here. 也罢 can mean "it's all right", so maybe we have "It does not matter if you pay attention to it"? ("It does not matter if you see todays episode of 'days of our life', you know what's in it anyhow"?)
I believe that the two pieces of rouge are still on the face of the actor who should have been performing the song, and that 琼瑶鼻 means his "jade nose"? (that "jade nose" sounds a little silly in translation, but still?)
Maybe I am missing something here.
1.3 The name of our family is "白" .
1.4 急切间不知他们说些什么 Here I have a problem with the function of 间. 六小姐 will turn out to be the main character of the story. I don't think that we can tell from the text yet who or what 七小姐 and 八小姐 are, but we will hear more about them.
三房的孩子们 must mean "the children of 三爷 and 三奶奶". "暗处看亮处" I suspect that this is both concretely (it is dark on the balcony) but also socially - Later we will find out that 四爷 is in difficulties in the family. 背过手去 = ?? "六妹" is what 三爷 calls 六小姐. I believe that she actually is the sister of the 三爷 and 四爷. 照说呢，倒也是应该 I'm not sure what 倒 means, maybe "still"? "According to custom, it still is necessary?" 白流苏 is the name of 六小姐.
1.5 Now we are getting into lots of questions about traditional Chinese society, I hope that you know more about this than I do..:)
I believe that 三爷 is the head of the family, so his opinions are important. 姨奶奶 Those are probably concubines - the 姨 differentiates them from wives. 自然是守不住的 Does it mean that it won't do that the 姨奶奶 are in charge of the funeral? Or just that they are in deep problems now? 回去替他戴孝主丧 Why would 流苏 "represent him" (替他) at his own funeral?
In the discussion 流苏 seeks support in the law, 三爷 in 三纲五常, so this is modern society against traditional. Right now, we are talking about the legality of divorces, or what? I have the impression that traditional society accept divorces - is this correct?
你生是他家的人死是他家的鬼 Hmm.. A 鬼 is usually an evil thing... what is the meaning here?
流苏 says that the family has used up all her money. Is she talking about her dowry? Was it returned at the divorce?
marcelbdt
February 03, 2008, 12:42 PMTo change your avatar, click on "My profile" at top right of this page, then click on "Account", and now you can upload a picture.
klgardensong
February 03, 2008, 03:05 PMI could stop anytime I wanted to...really! OK, so I'm addicted (and a natural addict at that, oh no!). I've admitted it. Now can I continue?
I just checked in to see what was up, and will try to print some stuff to take with me on the train.
I'll have to see Raise the Red Lantern again. I know it was quite common to have concubines, so the "indefensible" wild guess seemed way off even as I wrote it.
It makes total sense to me that "没 一 _ 半 _" means none. THANK YOU.
I'm also thrilled to have the "jinx" definition of comet - makes sense now.
Yes, Marcel's pointers on overall context and themes (e.g. traditional ways and modern law, old customs/morals and a new sense of rights, and just plain how much it sucked to be a woman in China) are VERY helpful. Keep them coming.
Are we sure 四奶奶's being such a bitch here? She's the one who jumped in and said 三爷 shouldn't even be bringing up the issue of money with kin, and if he did it would be a long conversation. Then she launches into how the family wronged 白流苏 on the money issue. It seems to me the "jinx" comment could be more sympathetic than accusatory/dismissive. But I could also have the whole tone wrong.
And do we know who's daughter 白流苏 is? Have I missed something really basic here?
Looking forward to forging ahead. I'm a little worried that I'm having such fun with this, but am grateful to you both for feeding the addiction!
Off to the swamp... Yes, liansuo, I think you can safely avoid CA for a while longer. :)
K
klgardensong
February 03, 2008, 03:10 PMOops, I signed off too soon.
Thanks, Marcel for fixing the 2.4 glitch. I now have all of Chapters 1 and 2 on my computer, as does liansuo, so you can take them down if you think it will cause problems.
Thanks, liansuo, for the dictionary tip - I'll try to get my hands on one. My current one just isn't enough - though it's fun to see how among the three of us using different resources we manage to cobble things together.
Now I'm really off to the swamp.
liansuo
February 03, 2008, 03:23 PMYou are making me feel a lot better, Kathy, with both your admission and demonstration of symptoms similar to my own. Let's wait then and join CA together and for now just see what ZAL is doing for us.
And Marcel: I am beginning to wonder what I can do for you - is there a way to beam chocolate through the internet? Where do I click? ;-) In any case -- thank you for the help with the avatar. BTW - this is no competitor for Kathy's garden miracle -- it is a Japanese fan.
marcelbdt
February 03, 2008, 06:46 PMWe do know from the start of paragraph 1.8 that 白流苏's mother is 白老太太, and I am assuming that 白老太太 is the mother of the two brothers.
I completely disgree with Kathy about 四奶奶... As I read it, she is blaming 流苏 for all misfortunes of both families. And it seems to me that 流苏 takes it that way : in 1.7 she says "好，好，都是我的不是！你们穷了，是我把你们吃穷了" etc..
klgardensong
February 03, 2008, 07:38 PMOK, OK. It's a total addiction. I'm sneaking a peak here just before going into a meeting. I like Japanese fan, liansuo, it beats the heck out of the big- -brother-is-watching-you shadow. I must admit to being quite proud of my garden miracle - I took the picture in my garden, and it's a special day lily bred and named for my dad's late wife.
Back to our saga. I'm so glad to be corrected on 四奶奶's true nature. It's good to have a clearly identified bitch in the story, and to know that we'll soon be meeting 白流苏's mother. And it's good to not be a woman in traditional China!
I'll try to squeeze in some more time later tonight. Working on the train with a small dictionary and a magnifying glass made me appreciate my annotator all the more.
K.
liansuo
February 03, 2008, 08:12 PMI am really beginning to be very amused. Marcel, although you are not yet ready to admit it - you are quite obsessed, too! And Kathy, sneaking peeks... OK, I just got to where our heroine seeks comfort with her mother. Yes, I am sure from the name that she is the mother of the two men and of girl number six. Also I do not have the slightest doubt that Marcel's politically incorrect term fully applies to Fourth Lady. Remember the dynamics between the women in the Red Lantern movie? Yes, it must have sucked, as Kathy says, to be a woman and live squeezed in between so many competing relatives and downright rivals. And no computer to amuse yourself with... Tomorrow I may submit a few of my tough passages to your joint wisdom, but for tonight--until later!
marcelbdt
February 03, 2008, 09:56 PMI don't think that you can learn Chinese without being obsessed, so that's good.
I am a little worried that I broke all the rules in the "comments policy" below with my statements about the fourth lady.
marcelbdt
February 03, 2008, 12:37 PMI fixed the glitch in 2.4 - one character had gone missing.
1.5 I suppose liansuo is right about the concubines, that they are not going to play widows. It seems that the situation is so obvious (自然) to 三爷 that he does not have to explain it to us in details...
My dictionary has : 一男半女 yīnán-bànnǚ n. a few children. (not NO children - I suppose that liansuo meant "没一this半that"= none) Could this somehow be related to 一年半载[---載] yīnián-bànzǎi n. around a year?
My impression is that Zhang is acutely aware of women's plight in traditional society, and that she is subtle, so mabe she had a purpose with that half girl.
In "家私不剩什么了" I assume that 剩 means "remains", "Of the family property, nothing remains"
1.6 I read the story about 白流苏's money as Kathy does, and to support it I have
天生 ¹tiānshēng attr. born; inborn; innate
扫帚星[掃--] sàozhouxīng n. ①〈astr.〉 comet ②〈derog.〉 a person (esp. a woman) who brings ill luck; jinx
(that 四奶奶 is a 天生的 bitch!)
这话可就长了 "There is a lot to say about that" ?
1.7 怪只怪 我是个血性汉子= ? The entire sentence containing this is somewhat mysterious to me.
我害了你们伤了阴骘 What does 阴骘 mean? "Secretly"? "I secretly harmed you"?
赤口白舌的咒起孩子来了 Dictionary: 赤口白舌 chìkǒubáishé f.e. squabble over nothing
"Are you cursing my child because of this unimportant tiff?" I am confused by the 起 and the 来了 .
Now 流苏 turns to 四爷, where she hopes she can get at least a little support. He does not have much to offer.
(It's remarkable how well we already know these persons..:)
1.8 "双膝一软" she felt weak in the knees ?
碎嘴子 suìzuǐzi v.o. 〈topo.〉 jabber; prate ◆n. 〈coll.〉 chatterbox
Chatterbox... Hmm.. I have already stated what I would alternatively call dear 四奶奶.
狂嫖滥赌的 With that wife, it's no wonder...:)
你三嫂精神又不济 Coming from 白老太太, who is so intent on smoothing things out, this does not sound very good. Maybe 三嫂 is depressive?
动拼西凑 Should this be "东拼西凑" - scrape together?
说声走，一撒手就走了 I don't know what she means....
Anyhow, in the last sentence, she tells 流苏 to do what her brother suggests.
1.9 宝络 is the name of 七妹.
白替她操了心 Here 操心 is "worry about", and 替 probably "on behalf of", but what about 白? In vain?
她不是我亲生的 "She is not born of my family" I think that we will learn later exactly what 七妹 is.
龙井 must be longjing (green) tea. It seems that 老太太 prefers to discuss the tea.
Also, it seems to be quite difficult to get up and down the stairs in this house.
1.10 别由着性儿闹 - maybe "由着性儿" = "in an egoistic way"
I suppose that 四奶奶 is worried about how much 宝络 has overheard?
Now I'll take a rest from Eileen Zhang for today..:) Have a good swamp Kathy, and don't go near CA liansuo.
marcelbdt
February 01, 2008, 04:33 PMThe novella by Zhang Ailing does not have any chapters, it's just in one big chunk. I am making the numbering up, for easier reference. Please make a copy of the text, so that I can take it down again when we move on...:)