Chapter 2
marcelbdt
February 02, 2008, 12:48 PM posted in General DiscussionThe second chapter consists of 6 paragraphs. It starts with "白流苏在她母亲床前凄凄凉凉跪着" and ends with "不与她相干了".
liansuo
February 10, 2008, 11:05 AMKathy, I just figured out how leaving messages works over at Cpod and that I had an old one from Marcel sitting there for weeks :-( Maybe you don't check your personal site either, then you would have one of those, too :-) Plus I sent you a little note yesterday. You can retrieve it by clicking "messages" on the right hand side of your avatar. See you soon!
klgardensong
February 06, 2008, 02:57 AMI hate to monopolize, so will keep this brief.
I think once we get past the 尘灰吊子 or 調子 (I'm not so sure now) the rest of the paragraph goes pretty quickly. Very cinematic and dreamlike, foggy... and she imagines herself pillowed by her mother's knees and then in a trancelike state is thrust back into an old memory...
I've just begun the first sentence or two of 2.2 and it seems she's made it back to present reality.
And now it's time for my own dreams! 晚安。
marcelbdt
February 06, 2008, 07:18 AM2.1 Kathy : Mm.. I just noticed that 吊 can mean "to mourn", so perhaps, "吊子" is just "mourning"? And that would fit as well or better than 調子 with Kathy's reading of the line?
I suppose that 尘灰 = 灰尘 ? Or is there a reason for that Zhan inverts the usual word order?
liansuo
February 06, 2008, 08:44 AMYou know, this is my mystery passage, too. I am going to buckle down and give it another go, inspired by all the different ideas you two already threw out. Meanwhile I feel that this is what I'd call "heads close together", zeroing in on one passage and doing a quick ping pong back and forth. Maybe Kathy dreams up the solution, says girl number two. :-) As to typo for 吊 - I am not sure, my book has it too. My, isn't this sleuth work!!!
liansuo
February 06, 2008, 11:22 AMHere are my thoughts:
她 的 聲 音 暗 灰 輕 飄 : her voice was grey and wispy 像 斷 斷 續 續 的 塵 灰 吊 子 like a drifting layer of dust.
That sounds very free -- but it would satisfy my poetic instincts. I hunted for 吊 as a noun -- the only possibilities seem to be that cash unit -- a string of coins with a hole, you know -- and as number two something like a lining in a garment, or a seam -- always with the basic idea of hanging down. Somehow the best I can do is to see a layer of dust -- sometimes I encounter those under my bed... and they do drift... and they are in little strings...(the poetic inspirations of a bad housekeeper)
斷 斷 續 續 is most likely a verb, adjectified :-). In my experience it is typical to double a pair of opposites to create a description of an off and on.
If 吊 was pot, my dictionary would write it 銚. I agree that interpreting 吊 子 as 調子 is brilliantly convincing when it refers to 聲 音, but it will not fit the other situation when 吊子 is used again. In that part, I would have to translate
滿 頭 滿 臉 挂 者塵灰 吊子--her head and face covered by a layer of dust. I can halfway live with this though uneasily. What would make me truly happy would be for someone to step forward and say that this is a big muddle .. not just one typo but a mix up of entire word-groups. I simply do not like the repetition of the complicated and unusual 塵 灰 吊 子. It is not elegant, and ZAL Is elegant. I would like to have 像 斷 斷 續 續 的 調子 and then 滿 頭 滿 臉挂 者 塵灰. (塵灰 and 灰塵 are both fine, says the dictionary.) Can you deal with this brainstormy stuff? When all is said and done, each one of us can stick to their favorite version, but occasionally we may bump into something truly convincing. And I am not saying that my stuff above is one of those instances. As far as this passage goes, I think we might give it a rest. It is poetic and not necessary for our further understanding of the plot. But those wild goose chases can provide good learning too and if you have any further ideas, please, out with it.
I am beginning to wonder how Chinese typos are created. Is it homophones?
By the way, I already got two Happy Chinese New Years wishes from Chinese friends -- so to both my fellow musketeers: Happy Rat Year and may our team continue to flourish!
Oh, Kathy --- if this is not monopolizing... I am sorry. But whenever you two write a long paragraph, I am very happy! Or will stuff like this bring the roof down, Marcel?
liansuo
February 06, 2008, 12:17 PMOh, Marcel, dear administrator -- last night I suddenly remembered: there is a writer whom I have always admired and who impresses me by an incredible strength of mind and character and so somehow is uplifting even when topics are not sunny - and she is a woman, Kathy!- 楊 絳. Have you heard of her? This is for the future, if at all. No attempt at ousting ZAL.
marcelbdt
February 06, 2008, 12:34 PMLiansuo> I think you are right that we should move on for now. When we are finished (but not before) I'll try to get a copy of the Karen Kingsbury translation, and see what she comes up with here!
I haven't heard of 楊 絳 before, but a search showed that there are stuff by her on the net, maybe you can figure out if there is anything there we could use?
marcelbdt
February 06, 2008, 12:37 PMLiansuo> I think you are right that we should move on for now. When we are finished (but not before) I'll try to get a copy of the Karen Kingsbury translation, and see what she comes up with here!
I haven't heard of 楊 絳 before, but a search showed that there are stuff by her on the : net, maybe you can figure out if there is anything there we could use?
liansuo
February 06, 2008, 01:21 PMI googled and promptly ran into a few net devils --- I don't like it out there :-( -- but as far as I could figure out, 回 憶 我 的 父 親 might be a start. I already feel hesitant and wold urge you to see how it strikes you. It has the advantage of giving us a historical overview - the language may have it's difficulties, too -- she is a powerhouse of intellect -- what I liked and remember is the insight into the life of a truly good (talented and decent) family.
My absolute favorite of hers is 洗 澡. It is a long novel and therefore not suited for this site, I think. But one could just read the first chapter. The disadvantage is that I know it so well. You would have to tie me and gag me in order for me not to behave WAY too "monopolous". （You may want to do this already now. ;-) )
klgardensong
February 06, 2008, 02:12 AMI feel like Sherlock Holmes, hot on the trail!
(2.1) Marcel: If I understand the situation correctly, 流苏 is now alone in the inner room. Kathy: I think so, so far no one else seems to have spoken or appeared.
她的声音灰暗而轻飘，像断断续续的尘灰吊子。I'm pretty sure we’re talking about her voice being dark and gloomy as well as light and floating, resembling an intermittent dismal (ashy gray) melody.
I’m convinced this is a typo and diàozi 吊子 should be diàozi 調子 (tune, melody).
More soon.
K.
P.S. We admit to emotions and suddenly we're "girls"! : )
marcelbdt
February 06, 2008, 07:25 PM2.1 (beginning) 自己以为是枕住了她母亲的膝盖 I think that here 枕 is the verb "rest ones head on" : "she thought that she was resting on her mothers knee".
2.1 (end) The mother she was asking for help, was not her real mother - because she does not trust her mother's advice in this matter, and imagines another mother, who could give a better answer? At the same time, she is aware of that 徐太太 enters the room, and incorporates her in the dream.
2.2 (beginning) 大热的天 Does this just mean that the day is hot? Why would 徐太太 be saying that?
婶子 shěnzi n. 〈coll.〉 aunt; wife of father's younger brother M:²wèi
But this can't be precise, or she would have been a 白, so I assume that it just a general term. I don't know if 徐太太 is a relative of 流苏, or just a friend of the family.
当面锣, 对面鼓 "loud as gongs and drums in front of me"?
钱盘来盘去盘光了 "played with your money until it was gone"? It seems that both the third and the fourth masters like to gamble with the money of the family, the third master somehow cleverly avoids open critizism.
2.3. (beginning)
害得我要走也走不开 What exactly does 害得 mean? "Since they have harmed me, I should go, but I cannot leave"?
2.3. (middle) 我这一辈子早完了 "My life has ended early"?
化个缘罢 What does the "缘" mean?
早两年托了我 "within two years, if you let me arrange it"?
2.3 (end) 少受多少气 ?
2.3 (end) 张罗她们还来不及呢，还顾得到我 Here "来不极" means "too late to do something". Why is that not at the very end of the sentence ("too late to do anything for me")?
It seems that 徐太太 could become "salesperson of the year" in any real estate agency or used car firm. I wonder what you used to get out of being a match maker in China? Is it just for the thrill and the connections, or do you get some kind of percentage?..:)
liansuo
February 06, 2008, 08:24 PMIf I do this right now, it will be easier ... Marcel re 2.1
!) I understand this as resting one's head on...
2) What i understodd is that she remembers a day when she got lost in the crowd and thought her mother was finally coming towards her ... and then it was another woman ... and yes, the way you say it -- the "aunt" entering blending into that memory.
3) 2.2. beginning. Thought it a bit strange, too. Maybe the upper rooms are especially hot.
What I seem to remember from the beginning, when this lady came with news of the death of Number Six' ex, that it was said that she is a relative of THAT family. Her main role now is that of a match-maker.
2.3. beg. 害 得 normally just means "so that" with a negative consequence
我 這 一 輩 子 早 完 了 my life has ended long ago
化 個 緣 according to my dict. beg for alms as a Buddhist nun or monk, 緣 is the karma thingy, one's fate according to former lives, but of course -- do not see either how this combines -- make one's karma different, i.e. better?
早here is a bit like above -- "ended long ago", If you had let me help you two years ago..."
2.3. end 少 受 多 少 起 ﹣﹣would have had to endure less humiliation ---
2.3. end, She is talking about her nieces who are coming into marriagable age, and when the brothers 張 羅 她們 -- to take care of those, i.e. find husbands for them, 來不 及 cannot manage ... why should they help her... It is 及 in my text. I am sure you get some kind of percentage!!! My computer still spits up stuff erratically, maybe because I update a lot. So I'll throw this one out quickly and wait for your corrections and queries.
liansuo
February 06, 2008, 08:27 PMOh -- here we go 2.3. end 少 受多 少 氣﹣﹣my typo of course. I still cannot paste. Sorry.
klgardensong
February 07, 2008, 03:25 AMI'm on the road again, up to my neck in swamp. Glad to see you're continuing on.
I'll chime in when I'm able, which will probably be Friday night at the earliest. I'm going from NYC back home, to Pennsylvania then Texas. Home again next Tuesday night. But the addiction is strong, so never fear, I'll be back!
K.
liansuo
February 07, 2008, 06:43 AMOh, Kathy, I did not think it was such a movable swamp!! Take good care whether cruising on interstates or boarding planes. I will have to cool it a bit, too. Friends coming by and family life. We are going to wait for you here, Marcel and me, in our corner of cyberspace and in chapter 2. (All this assuming you peeksneaking :-) )
klgardensong
February 07, 2008, 01:31 PMBut of course. My colleague is two minutes late for a meeting, so here I am sneaking and peeking. Enjoy your friends and company and the beginnings of Chapter 2!
K.
marcelbdt
February 07, 2008, 08:30 PMI'm going away for the weekend, and today I have not had much time for reading Chinese. Liansuo will have to wait for us both..:) I'll definitely be back next week though. See you then!
liansuo
February 08, 2008, 06:52 AMBoy, it is lonely out here in our corner, all by myself. Do I have to stand guard Buckingham palace style or can I take it a little more easy? Hop up and down and whistle little tunes? Be safe, have fun and hurry back, guys!
klgardensong
February 06, 2008, 01:53 PMHmmm, lots of action! Thank you! I like the brainstormy stuff, myself. After all, we're reading literature not a stock report.
I agree we should move ahead, and that my typo idea doesn't work with the second phrase 滿 頭 滿 臉 挂 者塵灰 吊子. For me it's definitely a wispy, foggy mournful image that could apply both to her voice and her face. I agree, too, that ZAL's writing is elegant, and can't wrap my head around 吊子 as a noun. So maybe it's a gray dismal haze of mourning that surrounds her. The dust gets in my way because it's so corporal, but there's certainly the aura of death around it...
I've also not heard of 楊 絳, but I really have zero background in Chinese literature - in translation or original - so you two will have to lead.
K.
marcelbdt
February 05, 2008, 11:41 PMI'm starting out with chaper 2 now! But the entire post will be about a few lines in 2.1. I have spent a lot of time on these first few lines, but they refuse to make sense..:)
2.1 If I understand the situation correctly, 流苏 is now alone in the inner room.
她的声音灰暗而轻飘，像断断续续的尘灰吊子。
This is very mysterious. I do know one thing: 续断 is a traditional medicin, "teasel root", which does come in pots (吊子). Maybe there is some transposition of character here? Now, what is a 尘灰 pot? I know that 灰尘 means "dust", also in the sense of the material world, but now it appears is backwards.
Anyhow
满头满脸都挂着尘灰吊子
Return of the dusty pot???
Do you girls have any ideas here?