Chapter 3
marcelbdt
February 06, 2008, 10:03 PM posted in General Discussion3.1 这时候，四爷一个人躲在那里拉胡琴，却是因为他自己知道楼下的家庭会议中没有他置喙的余地。徐太太走了之后，白公馆里少不得将她的建议加以研究和分析。徐太太打算替宝络做媒说给一个姓范的，那人最近和徐先生在矿务上有相当密切的联络，徐太太对于他的家世一向就很熟悉，认为绝对可靠。那范柳原的父亲是一个著名的华侨，有不少的产业分布在锡兰马来亚等处。范柳原今年三十三岁，父母双亡。白家众人质问徐太太，何以这样的一个标准夫婿到现在还是独身的，徐太太告诉他们，范柳原从英国回来的时候，无数的太太们急扯白脸的把女儿送上门来，硬要哑〔“提手”旁代替“口”旁〕给他，勾心斗角，各显神通，大大热闹过一番。
3.2 这一捧却把他捧坏了。从此他把女人看成他脚底下的泥。由于幼年时代的特殊环境，他的脾气本来就有点怪僻。他父母的结合是非正式的。他父亲有一次出洋考察，在伦敦结识了一个华侨交际花，两人秘密地结了婚。原籍的太太也有点风闻。因为惧怕太太的报复，那二夫人始终不敢回国。范柳原就是在英国长大的。他父亲故世以后，虽然大太太只有两个女儿，范柳原要在法律上确定他的身份，却有种种棘手之处。他孤身流落在英伦，很吃过一些苦，然后方才获得了继承权。至今范家的族人还对他抱着仇视的态度，因此他总是住在上海的时候多，轻易不回广州老宅里去。他年纪轻轻的时候受了些刺激，渐渐的就往放浪的一条路上走，嫖赌吃着，样样都来，独独无意于家庭幸福。白四奶奶就说：“这样的人，想必是喜欢存心挑剔。
3.3 我们七妹是庶出的，只怕人家看不上眼。放着这么一门好亲戚，怪可惜了儿的！”三爷道：“他自己也是庶出。”四奶奶道：“可是人家多厉害呀，就凭我们七丫头那股子傻劲儿，还指望拿得住他？倒是我那个大女孩子机灵些，别瞧她，人小心不小，真识大体！”三奶奶道：“那似乎年纪差得太多了。”四奶奶道：“哟！你不知道，越是那种人，越是喜欢年纪轻的。我那个大的若是不成，还有二的呢。”三奶奶笑道：“你那个二的比姓范的小二十岁。”四奶奶悄悄扯了她一把，正颜厉色地道：“三嫂，你别那么糊涂！护着七丫头，她是白家的什么人？隔了一层娘肚皮，就差远了。嫁了过去，谁也别想在她身上得点什么好处！我这都是为了大家好。”然而白老太太一心一意只怕亲戚议论她亏待了没娘的七小姐，决定照原来计划，由徐太太择日请客，把宝络介绍给范柳原。
3.4 徐太太双管齐下，同时又替流苏物色到一个姓姜的，在海关里做事，新故了太太，丢下了五个孩子，急等着续弦。徐太太主张先忙完了宝络，再替流苏撮合，因为范柳原不久就要上新加坡去了。白公馆里对于流苏的再嫁，根本就拿它当一个笑话，只是为了要打发她出门，没奈何，只索不闻不问，由着徐太太闹去。为了宝络这头亲，却忙得鸦飞雀乱，人仰马翻。一样是两个女儿，一方面如火如荼，一方面冷冷清清，相形之下，委实让人难堪。白老太太将全家的金珠细软，尽情搜刮出来，能够放在宝络身上的都放在宝络身上。三房里的女孩子过生日的时候，干娘给的一件累丝衣料，也被老太太逼着三奶奶拿了出来，替宝络制了旗袍。老太太自己历年攒下的私房，以皮货居多，暑天里又不能穿皮子，只得典质了一件貂皮大袄，用那笔款子去把几件首饰改镶了时新款式。珍珠耳坠子，翠玉手镯，绿宝戒指，自不必说，务必把宝络打扮得花团锦簇。
klgardensong
February 18, 2008, 02:34 PMWowee! We're back in gear. Glad to know I didn't inadvertently transmit swamp germs!
Marcel, I'd love to see what how you've indexed the lessons. I didn't know how to use the torrent, so have been downloading lessons individually, but without the texts. I'm about caught up on the intermediate and upper intermediate, but nowhere close on elem, newbie or advanced.
Have you managed to work out traditional character texts retroactively?? If so you deserve a big prize in my book! Would you be into sharing your results at some point?
Meanwhile, I have a couple of questions on 3.4 and one possible response to Liansuo's累 絲 衣 料. I spent some time on this and came up blank, but I think it (累 絲 ) might be a specialized kind of silk - like jacquard, something with texture or layers to it. What do you think?
I'll have to ponder on the "son and heir himself" theory - haven't got my head around it right now.
Kathy’s questions 3.4
1. It’s clear the family doesn’t care about a second marriage for 流苏 and they’re just go along with 徐太太’s plans to get 流苏 out of the house and off their hands. But why is 白老太太 going to such extremes to get 宝络 all fancied up? Going back to the last sentence of 3.3, it says: 然而白老太太一心一意只怕亲戚议论她亏待了没娘的七小姐，决定照原来计划，由徐太太择日请客，把宝络介绍给范柳原。 So she’s afraid the relatives will talk about her treating poor motherless 宝络 unfairly so she decides to go along with 徐太太 original plan… But whose relatives censure does she fear? 四奶奶 thinks the family owes 宝络 nothing. 三奶奶 thinks 四奶奶 is being to pushy about her own daughters, but isn’t really overtly supportive of 宝络. Is it 宝络’s relatives 白老太太 is worried about? And who are they? Maybe this is yet to be revealed?
- I’m pretty sure I understand the next to last sentence of 3.4 pretty well. 白老太太 has accumulated a lot of furs over the year, but you can’t wear fur in the summer, and the family’s strapped for cash, so they sell(?) a mink coat to pay for refurbishing some jewelry. What I can’t figure out is the use of 典质 in the phrase 只得典质了一件貂皮大袄. My dictionary searches come up blank for a two-word expression, and singly I can’t make them fit. Does it mean get the value out of? Does it mean pawn? Help! Many thanks in advance,
K.
P.S. Has any super-organized musketeer out there (you know who you are!) done a little chart of characters in this drama?
marcelbdt
February 14, 2008, 09:29 PM3.1 (middle) "锡兰" = Ceylon = Sri Lanka
3.1 (end) The riddle : I think that you have found a good candidate. But I still don't understand the point of the riddle, if she just want to say 掗, which a net dictionary gives as "attach; brandish; hold". ZAL does not do things like this without some reason, does she?
In 3.3 we are getting into deep waters:
3.3 (beginning) I have made a very bad cut here, right in the middle of something the fourth lady says.. so her speach straddles 3.2 and 3.3.
3.3 (beginning) I think that "门" must be used as measure word for "亲戚" here?
3.3. (beginning) I believe that "丫头" can mean girl, but also " slave girl" - I feel that this is derogatory, and that lady #3 is more sympathetic towards girl #7 than lady #4.
3.3 (beginning) "那股子傻劲儿" Is this a (strange) measure word + noun, or is it a 成语?
3.3 (middle) 扯了她一把 "pulled her hand" - my dictionary says that "把" can be a verbal measure word.
3.3 (end) 隔了一层娘肚皮 I am lost.. To start with something, what is the function of "层"?
3.3 (end) 没娘的七小姐 "the motherless seventh girl"
--
Yeah, I'm getting worried about Kathy too, if she is busy why doesn't she peak and tell?
liansuo
February 15, 2008, 10:43 AMThank you for the geographic enlightenment!! I can get so impatient with weird characters not really telling me anything---
I will have to spend more time over this 3.3. -- tomorrow. Company today. But re 3.1. where you assume the riddle, I am inclined to cling to my book version where the entire part in parentheses is missing and where you simply have the verb ya4 -- which I cannot produce... but which my dictionary gives as "force sth on s'one". When I translate that I get: blabla those mothers sending their daughters to meet him on his doorstep---"firmly set on forcing them on him " (namely FLY) . That makes me happy -- What about you? I never knew before that even "classical" texts can pose such problems of compatibility/ authenticity? in Chinese literature.
marcelbdt
February 15, 2008, 11:54 AMSomething strikes me! Yes! Of course! I think that I have actually solved this particular riddle: What if the person who typed this into the machine could not produce 掗 either? (S)he might have decided "I just type a similar character, and explain what I really want to type in parenthesis"?
liansuo
February 15, 2008, 01:09 PMYeah!!! That must be it. I think I remember that this is the way the Chinese "spell" unknown characters to each other.
Do you assume then that this text of yours (the above, official one) was hand-typed? Maybe it is a good thing always to have two texts from different sources then...
What do you think -- if the two of us were enrolled in a class --- would we be the nerds?? :-)
klgardensong
February 15, 2008, 04:01 PMThe swamp alligator returns - but sicker than a dog and way, way, way behind.
It's both great and daunting to see that you've really been working away on ZAL, while I've been just been away, and working on a really good case of bronchitis. In addition to workshops and facilitating a meeting, I had the pleasure of being in 8 different airports over the course of 3 days - all while I was hacking, coughing and generally wishing I were dead or at least home.
So now I am, home that it is, and will endeavor to get caught up. I'm sure you'll bear with me- and that all you've worked through already will help me speed (can glaciers speed?) right along.
K.
marcelbdt
February 15, 2008, 04:57 PMWelcome back! As you can read, we have missed you!
Poor you, I hope that you are over the worst by now. I really hate it when I get it, even if I can stay in my warm bed. Anyhow, good that you are back home.
And next time you visit the swamp, be sure to have some dry clothes ready for changing.
liansuo
February 15, 2008, 05:02 PMKathy, you poor thing! Actually I was on the verge of nudging marcel to try and skype you--- I thought you must be either very sick or blindingly happy --- but, alas, colds are easier to come by than bliss. Being sick while travelling is really my idea of purgatory. Take your time to recover -- pity, I just have just cooked up such a good pot of chicken soup and still don't know how to beam!
klgardensong
February 15, 2008, 05:14 PMThank you for the concern, warm welcome and great advice. If only I could have packed a spare set of bronchia!
More soon.
K.
liansuo
February 14, 2008, 07:25 PM3.1 Yup, this is Sister Seven --- and since she is said not to bet he old lady’s daughter, but obviously that of a concubine now out of the picture, I gather from this instance that siblings were numbered according to fatherly begetting and not according to motherly bearing them.
3.1 end I found this expression in my dictionary for classical stuff and it offers the alternative 急赤 白 臉 – which almost suits me better than 急 扯 . The explanation goes: 心 裡 著 (this is all I can get fort his character ... the zhuo, zhao zhe which is so frequent --- sorry)急，臉 色 難 看﹣having such urgency in their hearts that they were ugly to behold... Can you think of a good translation?
3.1 end My small but „characterful“ dictionary has the mysterious word „hand left, hoarseness right“ but not my computer... -- it means „to force something on somebody“ – which makes immediate sense. Pronunciation is ya4. I suppose we have to read or watch Jane Austen novels to get an idea of those desperate goings on...
3.1. middle: Have you figured out where the mines were that formed the basis of FLY’s wealth? I get Malaya, but the „Xilan“ I would have to do major digging for...
I agree on 3.2. : flattery and a surfeit of potential brides ruined him...
But where is our third Musketeer? I almost think Kathy must be sick or at least her computer.
liansuo
February 15, 2008, 08:29 PMGoodness, those typo devils are at it somewhat fierce! The sentence in my book -- and now I can't compare it any more to our official text -- is simply: 誰 叫 我 自 己 湖 涂 呢！
marcelbdt
February 15, 2008, 08:47 PMThe official text agrees with what liansuo says.
klgardensong
February 15, 2008, 09:17 PMVery curious. I think I'm OK with cutting and pasting and then the gremlins attack. I must confess I do convert the font to a style I like better, so that could be the source of the problem.
Thanks for the correction.
I've finished Chapter 2, and will want to go through it again with your exchanges. Meanwhile, I have to get on the road again - but am driving a couple of hours away and for pleasure not swamp!
More soon.
K.
K.
liansuo
February 16, 2008, 02:06 PMMaybe it is strategically best if I respond to marcel's post re 3.3 now, then Kathy can give us her opinion -- and then we can march on.
3.3 beginning : I agree, as I do on the next two items, 門 親 戚 his relatives
beg. 那 股 子 傻 勁 兒 this (gust of – weird --- and the character meaning thigh...) naivete, stubbornness
3.3 end 一 把 one tug
I was not aware before marcel pointed it out that ZAL is treating us to a nice collection of measure words here. Your usual q.e.d. to my quick assumptions of „got it“ ☺
3.3. beg. Yes, I feel the same way – normally I find 丫 頭 for slave or servant girls. That must express the lady’s respect for her half-sister
3.3 end 隔 了 一 層 娘 肚 皮 that is Chinese marriage politics and sibling rivalry: children by another mother are separated from each other, quite drastically, by „one layer of belly-skin“--- no delicacy here. As far as sympathies for Number Seven go, I am very leery of both ladies Three and Four. And talk about mother-love --- wanting to throw your thirteen-year-old child into the arms of “one of those who like them young“ so that the family may profit from her wealth...
3.3. end This makes it clear then that the concubine who was Number Seven's mother, is dead
liansuo
February 16, 2008, 04:10 PMI forgot my own questions:
How do you interpret
3.3.line 1 怪 可 惜 了 兒 的 ﹣﹣﹣
3.3.line 2 : 別 瞧 她 ... Somehow the literal sense '"don't look at her" leaves me a bit uneasy. Does it mean they should not all turn their heads and make the girl uncomfortable -- but I think she is not there anyway --- Do you have a different meaning for the verb 瞧 ？
klgardensong
February 18, 2008, 04:35 AMKathy's two cents on 3.3
3.3 beginning : Yellowbridge translates 一門 as “clan”, so a clan of relatives (一門 親 戚 ) makes perfect sense.
3.3 beginning : My dictionary has the whole 3 character phrase 傻劲儿 as foolishness. 股 子 can also be a portion/share of (hence the connection to stocks). In that light, then the whole sentence becomes, "But people can be so terrible, just based on our 七丫头’s share of foolishness (do you) still hope she can catch /grab and keep him?“ 可是人家多厉害呀，就凭我们七丫头那股子傻劲儿，还指望拿得住他？In the very next sentence she contrasts her own eldest daughter as a little more quick-witted (机灵些).
I agree with the rest of Liansuo’s interpretations, and am sure about the ya4 notation – for whatever reason they couldn’t type the real character so told us that it should really be the one with a side hand radical instead of kou3.
As far as Liansuo’s questions:
3.3.line 1 怪 可 惜 了 兒 的 ﹣﹣﹣ Kathy: This tripped me up, too. I think, however, that broadly it just means 真 or 很 可 惜. 怪 here I think means 真 or 很. 了 and 的 have their usual meanings, and 兒 could be the Beijing accent 兒. (Although I admit we haven’t seen that up to now except in the previous 傻劲儿, and I don't know if I've ever seen it after 了). Still, I think she’s saying it would be a really pity to place such a worthless 丫 頭 with no real connection to the family in such a fine clan.
3.3.line 2 : 別 瞧 她 ... Somehow the literal sense '"don't look at her" leaves me a bit uneasy. Kathy: I think it might just be literal, if you look at the phrases that follow. "Don’t look at her (meaning don’t judge a book by it’s (in this case small) cover) she may be small (her body)人小, but her heart (mind) is not small 心不小, and she really has the cardinal principles in mind 真识大体. (Back to those darn patriarchal principles again!)
OK, I’d think I was caught up (having read through 3.4), but I have a feeling you’ve both been reading ahead . I’ll look 3.4 over again and see if I have questions.
At first glance it seems pretty straightforward. As much as 白四奶奶 looks down on 七丫头 (or at least is trying to muscle her daughters into the pool of candidates—visions of Cinderella’s stepsisters trying to shove their feet into a tiny glass slipper…) 白老太太 is determined that she (七小姐) not be treated unfairly. Looks like they pull out all the stops, jewelry, furs…
More soon,
K.
liansuo
February 18, 2008, 01:20 PMKathy, that’s great – I am satified and inspired enough by your help to suddenly come up with the idea that the 兒 in my question 1, referring to 3.3.1 must be the son and heir himself whom they are supposed to be 怪ly cherishing. Can you see it like that, too?
If it is true that we are through with 3.4. already , I can live with it – most of those frantic actions to bedeck Number Seven with everything costly within reach make sense to me. Only the 累 絲 衣 料 in 3.4.5 is mysterious to me. A silk material to make a qipao – but the 累?
But a far more pressing question: where is our Musketeer #1, Big M so to say (KLM ☺) ? Did you by mistake beam your swamp bugs into his direction?
He told you he doesn't like that!!
marcelbdt
February 18, 2008, 02:12 PMOh, I was just waiting for Kathy and then going AWOL.. but I'll be back later today with comments up to 3.4 and also the start of chapter 4, if you don't beat me to it.
In my Chinese allotted time in the weekend I have been downloading the 500 first lessons of Chinese Pod from the torrent they provide, and then I have spent some time downloading the texts and indexing this. The result turned out to be so pleasant to work with that I'm now also downloading the later lessons, and fit them into the system.
klgardensong
February 15, 2008, 07:07 PMLiansuo,
You must be better at beaming than you think! I just had a delicious bowl of homemade chicken soup from the local deli - and am convinced there was a magical essence in it that I've never tasted before. It must have been your influence.
Thank you, thank you for your well wishing. I agree about travel (especially air travel) and being sick. I was quite worried about (and pained by) my ears during my 16 hour plane saga Tuesday/Wednesday. But all is well and both ears had cleared by Thursday afternoon...
Ah, talk of illness is infinitely interesting to the one who's sick and incredibly boring to everyone else, so I'll stop. I'm working through Ch. 2. Did either of you find a weird thing at the beginning of 2.3: “谁叫我自己糊猁5c呢！
What does the 5c stand for?
K.
marcelbdt
February 13, 2008, 11:19 PMI start on chapter 3:
3.1 (beginning) 宝络 is the name of the seventh girl.
3.1 (end) 急扯白脸的 A white face is the face of a villain, why do the eager 太太们 wear it?
3.1 (end) 硬要哑〔“提手”旁代替“口”旁〕给他 I think that we are supposed to solve a riddle... The character with a “口”旁 is 哑 = mute, dumb; hoarse. I don't know what it is supposed to mean here, but that will probably become clear when we have solved the riddle. Unfortunately, I can't find a character which combines 手 and 亚 - maybe this is where I need to know more about traditional characters?
3.2 (beginning) 这一捧却把他捧坏了 "The flattery he received spoiled him"?