Chapter 4
marcelbdt
February 06, 2008, 10:06 PM posted in General Discussion4.1 到了那天，老太太，三爷，三奶奶，四爷，四奶奶自然都是要去的。宝络辗转听到四奶奶的阴谋，心里着实恼着她，执意不肯和四奶奶的两个女儿同时出场，又不好意思说不要她们，便下死劲拖流苏一同去。一部出差汽车黑压压坐了七个人，委实再挤不下了，四奶奶的女儿金枝金蝉便惨遭淘汰。他们是下午五点钟出发的，到晚上十一点方才回家。金枝金蝉哪里放得下心，睡得着觉？眼睁睁盼着他们回来了，却又是大伙儿哑口无言。宝络沉着脸走到老太太房里，一阵风把所有的插戴全剥了下来，还了老太太，一言不发回房去了。金枝金蝉把四奶奶拖到阳台上，一叠连声追问怎么了。
4.2 四奶奶怒道：“也没看见像你们这样的女孩子家，又不是你自己相亲，要你这样热辣辣的！”三奶奶跟了出来，柔声缓气说道：“你这话，别让人家多了心去！”四奶奶索性冲着流苏的房间嚷道：“我就是指桑骂槐，骂了她了，又怎么着？又不是千年万代没见过男子汉，怎么一闻见生人气，就痰迷心窍，发了疯了？”金枝金蝉被她骂得摸不着头脑，三奶奶做好做歹稳住了她们的娘，又告诉她们道：“我们先去看电影的。”金枝诧异道：“看电影？”三奶奶道：“可不是透着奇怪，专为看人去的，倒去坐在黑影子里，什么也瞧不见，后来徐太太告诉我说都是那范先生的主张，他在那里掏坏的。他要把人家搁在那里搁个两三个钟头，脸上出了油，胭脂花粉褪了色，他可以看得亲切些。
4.3 那是徐太太的猜想。据我看来，那姓范的始终就没有诚意。他要看电影，就为着懒得跟我们应酬。看完了戏，他不是就想溜么？”四奶奶忍不住插嘴道：“哪儿的话，今儿的事，一上来挺好的，要不是我们自己窝儿里的人在里头捣乱，准有个七八成！”金枝金蝉齐声道：“三妈，后来呢？后来呢？”三奶奶道：“后来徐太太拉住了他，要大家一块儿去吃饭。他就说他请客。”四奶奶拍手道：“吃饭就吃饭，明知道我们七小姐不会跳舞，上跳舞场去干坐着，算什么？不是我说，这就要怪三哥了，他也是外面跑跑的人，听见姓范的吩咐汽车夫上舞场去，也不拦一声！”三奶奶忙道：“上海这么多饭店，他怎么知道哪一个饭店有跳舞，哪一个饭店没有跳舞？他可比不得四爷是个闲人哪，他没那么多的工夫去调查这个！”金枝金蝉还要打听此后的发展，三奶奶给四奶奶几次一打岔，兴致索然。只道：“后来就吃饭，吃了饭，就回来了。”
4.4 金蝉道：“那范柳原是怎样的一个人？”三奶奶道：“我哪儿知道？统共没听见他说过三句话。”又寻思了一会，道：“跳舞跳得不错罢！”金枝咦了一声道： “他跟谁跳来着？”四奶奶抢先答道：“还有谁，还不是你那六姑！我们诗礼人家，不准学跳舞的，就只她结婚之后跟她那不成材的姑爷学会了这一手！好不害臊，人家问你，说不会跳不就结了？不会也不是丢脸的事。像你三妈，像我，都是大户人家的小姐，活了这半辈子了，什么世面没见过？我们就不会跳！”三奶奶叹了口气道：“跳了一次，还说是敷衍人家的面子，还跳第二次，第三次！”金枝金蝉听到这里，不禁张口结舌。四奶奶又向那边喃喃骂道：“猪油蒙了心！你若以为你破坏了你妹子的事，你就有指望了，我叫你早早地歇了这个念头！人家连多少小姐都看不上眼呢，他会要你这败柳残花？”
klgardensong
February 24, 2008, 05:20 PMYes it is fun! And I didn't mean to sound left out. I'm a true Musketeer! I just really don't want to hold you up, and I haven't quite figured out how to keep the swamp alligators in line. :)
Also, I read 一 上 來 as "from the start", or "from the time we set out", but don't really have any support for that. Liansuo, you're probably right that it refers to as soon as they got in the taxi - but why wouldn't it be 一 上 去?
Now on to Chapter 5, ooh la la!
K.
marcelbdt
February 20, 2008, 06:16 PMOn Liansuo's post:
4.1.4 sounds good
4.2.2 also good.
4.2.3 I have "痰迷心窍" tánmíxīnqiào f.e. confused; foolish; befuddled.
4.2.5 Of course you are right and I am wrong..:)
4.2.5 掏坏[-壞] tāohuài v.o. 〈topo.〉 be up to mischief; play dirty tricks ("topo" means that it is a local expression)
marcelbdt
February 20, 2008, 06:18 PMOn Liansuo's post:
4.1.4 sounds good 4.2.2 also good. 4.2.3 I have "痰迷心窍" tánmíxīnqiào f.e. confused; foolish; befuddled 4.2.5 Of course you are right and I am wrong..:) 4.2.5 掏坏[-壞] tāohuài v.o. 〈topo.〉 be up to mischief; play dirty tricks ("topo" means that it is a local expression)
liansuo
February 20, 2008, 07:25 PMThanks for the feedback, Marcel! Your dictionary seems to be perfect for ZAL's topo lingo! :-) Mine are evidently on the old-fashioned side.
liansuo
February 20, 2008, 07:35 PMBy the way, thank you also for counting me as a group member (risking that people may accuse you of not being able to count to five ;-) ) although I can for all the world not figure out how to manoeuvre my avatar into the gallery of students. It does not matter as far as I am concerned. The 鬼 existence sort of suits me!!
liansuo
February 19, 2008, 09:48 PMThis is surprisingly difficult. Although I sort of understand most of it and share most of Marcel’s hunches, there are many passages where I cannot prove them. I suppose we simply all add our two cents and see what we get for six... ☺
Re 4.1.4. My dictionary gives me 放 不 下 心 as „be upset, be anxious“. I can live with that to describe the girls’ state. „How could they be calm...“ Yes, I agree – it is a good device to have the whole scene of the first encounter between our story’s main characters (I peeked) thus seen through the eyes of perturbed / impressed onlookers. It really spices things up ;-)
4.2.2 別 讓 人 家 多 了心 去 That expression was used bevor when Brother Three said he took Sister Six in after her divorce because he was afraid she might otherwise--- 多 心 . Sorry I cannot lay my hands on the "official text" any more. Probably towards the end of ch.1. What do you think—is this the label applied to Number 6 „over-sensitive“, „always in a huff“...? The way I see the present scene, „peacemaker“ Lady Three is using the word less regarding the girls which were just scolded by their mother but regarding Number Six in front of whose door the whole scene takes place. The 人 家 especially makes me think that this is meant for Number Six’ ears.
4.2. 3. .一 聞 見 生 人 气 ﹣﹣ as soon as you smell / get a whiff of the ... 气 ??(after-shave was not in the dict. ☺ )of a stranger? Weird, hmmm ---
I could not find 痰迷 only 痰 气 which means craziness, 心 qiao4 is translated as a kind of craftiness... there is one expression 權 迷 心 qiao４which is said to mean power-hunger, lust for power -- if the craziness 痰 迷 has a sexual connotation the expression would make sense.
4.2.5. 專 為 看 人 去 的， 倒 坐... If you you go specifically in order to meet someone, (人most likely applied to Number Seven) and then of all things( 倒) go sit in the dark ---
4.2. 他 在 那 裡 掏 壞 ﹣﹣that is where he uncovers (掏 said to equal 挖)the bad=the flaws – by causing the ladies to ruin their make-up and show their true colours? Or did you find a translation saying „dirty tricks“, Marcel? I would be much happier with it, but cannot easily construct it from the givens. Or is 掏＝挖 , 壞＝ 苦 =be sarcastic---?
4.2.6 可 以看 得 親 切 些 – exactly – see them from up closer, make-up running...
Now, Kathy -- your goodies!
klgardensong
February 23, 2008, 09:31 PMI'm sorry to keep you waiting yet again. You seem to being doing fine without me. Below are my questions on Chapter and thoughts on your posts.
KL Questions on Chapter 4
4.1.5
一阵风把所有的插戴全剥了下来. While I understand this in general, my dictionaries are falling short of good translations for 插戴. Any thoughts?
4.3.7. 兴致索然 Do you read this as 三奶奶 purposely interrupting 四奶奶 to make something really juicy and interesting into something dull and dry? Or is this a 4-word phrase I can’t find. Other thoughts?
4.4.6 …猪油蒙了心 Is 猪油蒙心 a 4-word phrase I can’t find. If not, how do you fit pig lard and 蒙心 together. Is it meng1 (senseless, cheat, deceive) or meng2 (ignorant)?
Kathy’s thoughts on Chapter 4 posts to date
4.1.4 definitely, how (here 哪里) could they be calm/at ease
4.2.2 very good, I’d forgotten about the previous use of 多 心 – and in reference to the same person?
4.2 (middle) 又不是千年万代没见过男子汉，怎么一闻见生人气，就痰迷心窍，发了疯了 I think it’s more "It’s not as if you haven't seen a man for ages, how is that you get befuddled and go crazy getting just one whiff of a stranger?”
4.2.3 I also have "痰迷心窍" tánmíxīnqiào as befuddled.
4.2.5 Yes on Liansuo’s version
4.2.5 掏坏[-壞] tāohuài v.o. 〈topo.〉 be up to mischief; play dirty tricks ("topo" means that it is a local expression). THANK YOU, I couldn’t find this anywhere.
4.2.5 Yes, it's that he’s up to no good, making them sit in the theatre until their faces are oily, their rouge is faded so he can get a more intimate (亲切-in this case more authentic?) look at them. Although this is just 徐太太’s guess.
That's it for now!
marcelbdt
February 24, 2008, 12:12 PMKathy, just take your time, this is for fun not for grades...:) And we do need your input, this is a three way collaboration.
4.1 (end) Kathy> 插戴 ¹chādài v. wear (flower/ornament) ◆n. women's head ornaments
4.3 (beginning) 哪儿的话，今儿的事 Here 哪儿的话 = you should't say that, but what about 今儿的事? Is it the topic of the following sentence?
4.3 (beginning) 自己窝儿里的人 = "Our own"?
4.3 (middle) 外面跑跑的人 This is probably nothing good, but what is it?
4.3 (end) "兴致索然" I don't have it in my dictionary, but a google seach gives many hits, so it is actually a fixed expression. I do have 兴致[興-] ²xìngzhì n. interest; mood to enjoy . My guess after looking at a few of the google hits is that the expression means that you do not like a certain performance. "We are not amused".
4.4 (middle) 我们诗礼人家 This probably just means that they embroider a lot of sandals. I doubt that these women has learnt to read, although I believe that there were family schools where they allowed the daughters.
4.4 不会也不是丢脸的事 Being respectable... it's all about face.
4.4 (end) 猪油蒙了心 Using the google method, I found many hits, for instance the following:
偶然翻开喜欢红楼梦：王熙凤骂出一句：我看你是猪油蒙了心！
So you don't want to be called this. Why is not so clear, I vote for that 蒙了心 means "deceiving heart".
4.4 (end) 人家连多少小姐都看不上眼呢 Where does "多少" go?
I think that 流苏 is playing a very brave and risky game here. She is an intelligent person, and she must understand the consequences of offending the powers of her family . She has no guarantee that 范柳原 will support her. He will probably understand the situation (but she can't even know that for sure?), and might either be impressed, or alternatively think "that's a really desperate woman, best keep away from her". She cannot know which.
klgardensong
February 24, 2008, 04:25 PMThanks, Marcel. I am definitely having fun – just trying to navigate e-etiquette and not hold you up.
4.1 (end) Kathy> 插戴 ¹chādài v. wear (flower/ornament) THANK YOU
4.3 (beginning) Marcel>哪儿的话，今儿的事 Here 哪儿的话 = you shouldn't say that. K: yes, or how can you say that. Yes, I see 今儿的事 as the topic of the following sentence. What happened today / today’s affairs started out just fine, it was our own people who were intentionally looking for trouble and made such a mess of things. So, again, 四奶奶 is placing all the blame and acrimony on 流苏.
4.3 (beginning) Marcel>自己窝儿里的人 = "Our own"? K: Yes, I like the nest image-- it’s feeling as much like a nest of vipers as a nest of birds, although I suppose birds can be very pragmatic in protecting their own young at the expense of others, and from a human perspective it looks as cruel as 四奶奶’s behavior.
4.3 (middle) Marcel>外面跑跑的人 I tripped over this, too, and then decided to interpret it fairly directly, that she’s blaming 三哥 for not preventing 范柳原 from going to a dance hall, saying that he (三哥) is also one of those people who likes to go running around (outside), presumably instead of sitting down to do the serious work of matchmaking. I could quite easily be wrong about this, but don’t find 外面跑跑 or 跑外面 as a set phrase.
4.3 (end) "兴致索然" Inspired by your googling, I googled, too, and found one entry that gives a definition: 词目兴致索然 发音xìng zhì suǒ rán 释义一点儿兴趣都没有。This fits perfectly with your looser, “we are not amused” interpretation.
4.4 (middle) 我们诗礼人家 Marcel: This probably just means that they embroider a lot of sandals. I doubt that these women have learnt to read. Kathy: I read it as a way of saying “refined”, well-versed in poetry and etiquette (interesting to think they might not be able to read – I hadn’t thought about that. But this isn’t set that long ago, and they’re a fairly well-off family—in spite of all the dissipation. Surely they do read??? Here I’m exposing my blatant ignorance of Chinese social history).
4.4 不会也不是丢脸的事 Marcel>Being respectable... it's all about face. K: Yes, and 四奶奶's determination to blame 流苏 for everything. No loss of face in not being able to dance, but big loss of face for the whole family in 流苏’s dancing with him.
4.4 (end) Marcel> 猪油蒙了心 Using the google method, I found many hits, for instance the following: 偶然翻开喜欢红楼梦：王熙凤骂出一句：我看你是猪油蒙了心！ So you don't want to be called this. Why is not so clear, I vote for that 蒙了心 means "deceiving heart".
Kathy: A quotation from 红楼梦 that leaps off the page with its intensity (好像那一句话凛烈地从书中跳了). So it must be bad. I‘m all for going with deceiving heart. There was also this interesting take on it, I believe the text is describing the meaning of 猪油蒙心: 猪油蒙心. 一直不敢将温暖的希望寄托在任何人身上，所以更多的时候总是在独自赶路。 可有时寂寞真得像隐性毒药，在最脆弱的时候发作，噬心蚀骨。
4.4 (end) 人家连多少小姐都看不上眼呢 Marcel>Where does "多少" go? Kathy: I think it’s “Given how many (多少 ) other girls he hasn’t fallen for, how could he possibly want used goods like you.” Yes it does seem a risky game she’s playing. It's not as though they give her any support at the moment (besides room and board), but I guess they could get really nasty if she really angered or disgraced them.
Thanks for the googling technique - it hadn't occurred to me and can be quite useful - although it's a lot to wade through.
K.
liansuo
February 24, 2008, 04:40 PMThis is fun! While I wrote my stuff, Kathy entered hers -- do you mind if I simply leave mine as is -- it looks as if we were in very good agreement on most things and I keep being inspired by parallel thoughts/questions of yours. As you see -- I am back in the net... thanks to my husband's efforts.
4.3.2 I had a different idea of this passage before your suggestion, but now I tend to think it means as you said: Come on, what do you mean 哪 裡 的 話, our affair today (今 兒 的 事)was going just fine once he ... 一 上 來 I suppose she means the taxi ride? came along... unless this product of our own nest had started acting up inside ... (in the restaurant, I assume)
4.3.5 This I see as another little skirmish between Ladies Three and Four (look at Three’s answer!). What Four does not understand is the fact that her bro in law – who is „also one of those who run around outside, i.e. in the city (and not only her good-for-nothing hubby) did not avert the fiasco on the dance-floor ...
4.3.7. 興 致／ 索 然 piecing it together : interest/enjoyment /all gone flat/boring --- „lamely“ might be a translation. I am not sure either whether there is a clear intention on Three’s part not to have the juicy details and/or Four’s venom come out full blast– or whether she is just too excited and babbles-- the effect in any case is the „lame“ statement.
4.4.2 Marcel!! ;-) do you know how many pairs of socks I have knitted since listening to Chinese pod? No, seriously – that is a question: how educated were these women? But clearly to her the stress is on good family – and being protected from worldly wisdom, i.e.depravity. However: In the thirties privileged women could undoubtedly be as educated as men -- after all ZAL herself belonged to that period, too. Or remember the Red Lantern once again, K. -- there the ill-fated heroine, another Lady Four, was a college student.
4.4.6. Now that’s super googling– this saying is already in 紅 樓 夢 !! I am not sure either why I feel I would not like to hear it applied to me. My hunch went somewhat into the direction of greed/lust – the vision of pork fat dripping --- We would have to check the source. But maybe we are not THAT thorough-minded... ☺
4.4.7. I could imagine that what she means is that FLY has a record of not 看 得 上ing so many 多 少 young ladies – why should he like Number Six, who is „used goods“.
I am whipping this out without further ado then -- see you in Chapter5!
liansuo
February 24, 2008, 04:48 PMEh, and yes, Kathy -- this is the THREE Musketeers -- !
klgardensong
February 21, 2008, 03:24 PMOops, I just checked in to see you're moving ahead. I'll try to catch up tonight.
K.
marcelbdt
February 18, 2008, 07:39 PM4.1 金枝金蝉哪里放得下心 "How could 金枝 and 金蝉 concentrate"? This sounds a bit strange, They are supposed to go to sleep (of course they can't), but you don't concentrate to do that, do you? Maybe more like "meditate"?
(It's a clever trick to see all this from the perspective of the children!)
4.2 (beginning) 别让人家多了心去 "Don't make everyone suspicious" ?
4.2 (middle) 又不是千年万代没见过男子汉，怎么一闻见生人气，就痰迷心窍，发了疯了 "Even if you haven't seen a man for ages, that is no excuse for going insane when you meet one."?
专为看人去的 "We only went there to look at people" (ie at 范)
他在那里掏坏的 What kind of dirty tricks??
他可以看得亲切些 So that he can study them without makeup on?