Chapter 5
marcelbdt
February 06, 2008, 10:08 PM posted in General Discussion5.1 流苏和宝络住着一间屋子，宝络已经上床睡了，流苏蹲在地下摸着黑点蚊烟香，阳台上的话听得清清楚楚，可是她这一次却非常的镇静，擦亮了洋火，眼看着它烧过去，火红的小小三角旗，在它自己的风中摇摆着，移，移到她手指边，她噗的一声吹灭了它，只剩下一截红艳的小旗杆，旗杆也枯萎了，垂下灰白蜷曲的鬼影子。她把烧焦的火柴丢在烟盘子里。今天的事，她不是有意的，但是无论如何，她给了他们一点颜色看看。他们以为她这一辈子已经完了么？早哩！她微笑着。宝络心里一定也在骂她，同时也对她刮目相看，肃然起敬。一个女人，再好些，得不着异性的爱，也就得不着同性的尊重。女人们就是这一点贱。
5.2 范柳原真心喜欢她么？那倒也不见得。他对她说的那些话，她一句也不相信。她看得出他是对女人说惯了谎的。她不能不当心——她是个六亲无靠的人。她只有她自己了。床架子上挂着她脱下来的月白蝉翼纱旗袍。她一歪身坐在地上，搂住了长袍的膝部郑重地把脸偎在上面。蚊香的绿烟一蓬一蓬浮上来，直熏到她脑子里去。她的眼睛里，眼泪闪着光。
5.3 隔了几天，徐太太又来到白公馆。四奶奶早就预言过：“我们六姑奶奶这样的胡闹，眼见得七丫头的事是吹了。徐太太岂有不恼的？徐太太怪了六姑奶奶，还肯替她介绍人么？这就叫偷鸡不着蚀把米。”徐太太果然不像先前那么一盆火似的了，远兜远转先解释她这两天为什么没上门。家里老爷有要事上香港去接洽，如果一切顺利，就打算在香港租下房子，住个一年半载的，所以她这两天忙着打点行李，预备陪他一同去。至于宝络的那件事，姓范的已经不在上海了，暂时只得搁一搁，流苏的可能的对象姓姜的，徐太太打听了出来，原来他在外面有了人，若要拆开，还有点麻烦。据徐太太看来，这种人不甚可靠，还是算了罢。三奶奶四奶奶听了这话，彼此使了个眼色，撇着嘴笑了一笑。
5.5 徐太太接下去攒眉说道：“我们的那一位，在香港倒有不少的朋友，就可惜远水救不着近火……六小姐若是能够到那边去走一趟，倒许有很多的机会。这两年，上海人在香港的，真可以说是人才济济。上海人自然是喜欢上海人，所以同乡的小姐们在那边听说是很受人欢迎。六小姐去了，还愁没有相当的人？真可以抓起一把来拣拣！”众人觉得徐太太真是善于辞令。前两天轰轰烈烈闹着要做媒，忽然烟消火灭了，自己不得下场，便故作遁辞，说两句风凉话。白老太太便叹了口气道： “到香港去一趟，谈何容易！单讲——”不料徐太太很爽快的一口剪断了她的话道：“六小姐若是愿意去，我请她。我答应帮她的忙，就得帮到底。”
5.6 大家不禁面面相觑，连流苏都怔住了。她估计着徐太太当初自告奋勇替她做媒，想必倒是一时仗义，真心同情她的境遇。为了她跑跑腿寻寻门路，治一桌酒席请请那姓姜的，这点交情是有的。但是出盘缠带她到香港去，那可是所费不赀。为什么徐太太平空的要在她身上花这些钱？世上的好人虽多，可没有多少傻子愿意在银钱上做好人。徐太太一定是有背景的。难不成是那范柳原的诡计？徐太太曾经说过她丈夫与范柳原在营业上有密切接触，夫妇两个大约是很热心地捧着范柳原。牺牲一个不相干的孤苦的亲戚来巴结他，也是可能的事。流苏在这里胡思乱想着，白老太太便道：“那可不成呀，总不能让您——”徐太太打了个哈哈道：“没关系，这点小东，我还做得起！再说，我还指望六小姐帮我的忙呢。
5.7 我拖着两个孩子，血压又高，累不得，路上有了她，凡事也有个照应。我是不拿她当外人的，以后还要她多多费神呢！”白老太太忙代流苏客气了一番。徐太太掉过头来，单刀直入地问道：“那么六小姐，你一准跟我们跑一趟罢！就算是去逛逛，也值得。”流苏低下头去，微笑道：“您待我太好了。”她迅速地盘算了一下。姓姜的那件事是无望了。以后即使有人替她做媒，也不过是和那姓姜的不相上下，也许还不如他。流苏的父亲是一个有名的赌徒，为了赌而倾家荡产，第一个领着他们往破落户的路上走。流苏的手没有沾过骨牌和骰子，然而她也是喜欢赌的。她决定用她的前途来下注。如果她输了，她声名扫地，没有资格做五个孩子的后母。如果赌赢了，她可以得到众人虎视眈眈的目的物范柳原，出净她胸中的这一口恶气。
marcelbdt
March 13, 2008, 06:56 PMWelcome back Kathy! We have missed you, and we have waited for you.
I believe that ladies 3 and 4 were right in suspecting that she was angry with Liusu for interfering in her first project. This makes her subsequent offer even more remarkable. I think that we will get an explanation for the curious behaviour of the match maker later.
klgardensong
February 25, 2008, 05:44 PMOooh, well done! Your translation makes much better use of the 也就, which I didn't pay sufficient attention to.
Thank You!
I'm still not sure about the best translation of the very idiomatic 再好些, but I think our versions together and separately are in the ball park.
K.
marcelbdt
February 25, 2008, 06:32 PM5.1 (middle) 她给了他们一点颜色看看 "She just gave them something to watch" Maybe this flirt was not serious (it will become though), but it was an act of liberation.
5.1 (end) Kathy> My dictionary: 再好 zàihǎo adv. no matter how good;
I read the sentence in a different way:
一个女人，再好些，得不着异性的爱，也就得不着同性的尊重 No matter how good a woman is, if she does not attract the opposite sex, then she will not receive respect from her own.
(I see Liansuo has beaten me to this translation..:) 5.2 直熏到她脑子里去 I wonder what kind of insect-repellent this is? It sounds almost narcotic.
5.3 (beginning) 徐太太岂有不恼的 Wouldn't it be more natural to say just 徐太太岂不恼的? I'm sure that Ailing knows better, but I don't see why.
5.3 (beginning) 叫偷鸡不着蚀把米 What is that chicken thief not allowed to touch?
5.3 远兜远转 Google claims that this is a set expression.
5.3 (middle) 家里老爷 = (Mrs. Xu's) husband?
5.3 (end) 原来他在外面有了人，若要拆开，还有点麻烦 I suppose these means that he had obtained a wife through different channels? I know that 有了 can mean "become pregnant", but I can't fit that into the sentence. But the 若要拆开 seems strange to me.
5.4 I have nothing whatsoever to say about 5.4
marcelbdt
February 25, 2008, 06:37 PMI have made a forum just for the three of us, you can register at the web adress "bokstedt.dk/zhong". After registration, you have to wait for me to validate your registration before you can get in (this is to prevent the annoying spam machines to get in).
marcelbdt
February 25, 2008, 07:57 PMMmm.. thats probably not necessary.. I changed it so you can just go in and look after you registered, I'll simply close the door again once you are have arrived.
klgardensong
February 25, 2008, 08:40 PMKathy's 2 cents:
5.1 (middle) Marcel: 她给了他们一点颜色看看 "She just gave them something to watch" Maybe this flirt was not serious (it will become though), but it was an act of liberation. Kathy: I read this as a little more emphatic, more like “She sure gave them something to look at”, with the added sexual undertones of 颜色.
5.1 (end) Marcel> My dictionary: 再好 zàihǎo adv. no matter how good. Kathy: Good to know my intuition was right on the 再好 part, my dictionary doesn’t have it, but it just felt right.
Marcel>I read the sentence in a different way: 一个女人，再好些，得不着异性的爱，也就得不着同性的尊重 No matter how good a woman is, if she does not attract the opposite sex, then she will not receive respect from her own. Kathy: Very nice, you both had a better overall grasp of the meaning here.
5.2 Marcel> 直熏到她脑子里去 I wonder what kind of insect-repellent this is? It sounds almost narcotic. Kathy: I don’t know but it makes me queasy just thinking about it – that stuff is toxic!
5.3 (beginning) Marcel>徐太太岂有不恼的 Wouldn't it be more natural to say just 徐太太岂不恼的? Kathy: I don’t really get the construction either, although my dictionary does have one instance of 岂 with 有: 岂 有此理, outrageous, preposterous.
5.3 (beginning) Marcel> 叫偷鸡不着蚀把米 What is that chicken thief not allowed to touch? Kathy: For once I can chime in. I have a little handbook of idioms that often seems to have no more (or even less) than my dictionary. However, this is a set phrase 偷鸡不着蚀把米 that directly translates as “try to steal a chicken only to end up losing the rice”. Crystal clear, right? The other translation helps me more “go for wool and come back shorn”. So I guess it means to try to rip someone off, only to be ripped off yourself. In this context maybe for 徐太太 to try to (be willing to) help 流苏 only to end up failing 宝络. What do you think?
5.3 远兜远转 Marcel>Google claims that this is a set expression. Kathy: Makes sense to me since 兜圈子 means to go around in circles and 转 also means to turn… going around in circles (long distance, no less) to explain…
5.3 (middle) Marcel>家里老爷 = (Mrs. Xu's) husband? Kathy: That’s how I read it.
5.3 (end) Marcel: 原来他在外面有了人，若要拆开，还有点麻烦 I suppose these means that he had obtained a wife through different channels? I know that 有了 can mean "become pregnant", but I can't fit that into the sentence. But the 若要拆开 seems strange to me. Kathy:I also always think of pregnant when I see/hear 有了. I think here, though, the 了 is simply past tense, he already has (有了) someone through outside channels… and if 若 we wanted 要 to unravel/undo 拆开 that arrangement it would be 麻烦.
5.4 Marcel> I have nothing whatsoever to say about 5.4 Kathy: Very clever, as it seems our illustrious text partitioner has conveniently skipped from 5.3 to 5.5! ☺ Ah, the illusion of speed reading Chinese!
K.
liansuo
February 26, 2008, 10:40 AMI am always lagging behind, sorry.
5.1.4. I just found this in my dictionary - verbatim: 給 他 點 顏 色 看 看 - teach him a lesson... seems fitting to me. Dictionaries of the world unite!
5.2. insect repellent -- While it is certainly OK for Marcel to imagine narcotic intensity :) I am with Kathy here from yucchy experience –
5.3.2. 徐 太 太 豈 又 不 惱 的﹣﹣my dictionary has one meaning of „worry“ as a noun and all in all I suppose this is one of the words where verbal and nominal potential blend, so I am not bothered by the 有 ﹣﹣exactly, as M. says: ZAL wrote it and she knows. I do not think that the 豈 has any influence on the construction per se...
5.3. 2 Good for the little proverb dictionary -- and yet I cannot quite wrap my brain around the drift the lady is taking here. Did Lady Four even know that Xu Taitai was on Number Six’ side? Was 6 not just there because 7 insisted on her coming along? Well – I don’t think we need to worry too much for future context and just leave this vague as one of Lady Four’s spouts of venom. What she clearly hopes ist hat Xu Taitai will no longer try to find a partner for 6.
5.3.5 Interesting that you were both into 有 了 and pregnancy – I only just learned this on Cpod. What I understand here is that the guy already has a liaison (有 人sounds pretty casual)– maybe with 有 了 your style consequences, who knows - and that it would be very cumbersome to break this up, i.e. the new wife would have five step-kids and a husband with a mistress... What intrigues me is the reaction of the two ladies, 3 and 4 -- the strange smile they are exchanging. What is it for? Themselves, i.e. bitter/ironic or the turn this is taking, i.e. triumphant?
5.4. Wonder what juicy details were censored here. ☺
And now the sad truth: unless some more direct pointer is given me, I will not be able to bring bread and salt to the new home. I tried a few tricks ... no good... still wandering and wondering...
marcelbdt
February 26, 2008, 12:10 PMDirect pointer:
Go to the adress
http://bokstedt.dk/zhong
On the third line to the right, you will find a blue text saying "register". Click on it. Now you have to pretend that you are 13 years old or older - the site can't check if you are telling the truth here anyhow - and that you agree to all conditions. Don't read the conditions, just click "yes, I am exactly 13 years old or older, and agree to everything". Next, you will be asked for your name and password and emailadress. You have to answer, actually you can just make up something..:), but be sure to enter the password the same both times.
Now you can "log on" the forum using your name and password. There are six Chinese chapters there and a short message from Kathy.
liansuo
February 26, 2008, 05:32 PMThe more I am sneaking around exploring the new premises the more I am overwhelmed by the luxury. Things will be SO easy now with quoting etc., let alone disabling smilies ;) Don't forget to bill us for our share of the rent!
liansuo
February 25, 2008, 04:04 PMSince I just, prowling by coincidence:), bumped into your post and question, here is how I made sense of it: "A woman, even if she is pretty good, who cannot get the love of the opposite sex, will not get the respect of her own sex either. That's how shallow women are! " Maybe finding out what's wrong with mine, gets you to the proper solution! And yeah, this scene is especially impressive!
liansuo
February 27, 2008, 09:49 AMAs far as I have gotten -- my one cent and a half
5.3.2 chicken talk – Marcel’s application of the saying on Liusu rather than Xu Taitai is an interesting possibility and makes logical sense. But --- (Anyone interested in a lengthy discussion of fowl and Chinese proverbs, just raise their hand --- I could provide it but feel that it might be tedious). What matters is just as you say : The ladies want Xu Taitai to stop working on Liusu’s behalf.
5.5.1. Here I have a question: how exactly do you translate the 接下 去 ？
5.5. 3 and 5.5.4. one of those where I thought I understood but now... mmmmmm .... what about „and as she could not
5.6.5 犧 牲 一 箇 不 相 幹 的 ... „offering up/sacrificing an unimportant/ indifferent poor relative. to please/butter him up.. etc.“
5.6. 6 Yeah, I thought of 東西 , too – but my dict. delivered: 做 東 "play the host, treat s.one". Traditionally the kneeling mat/seat of the host is the Eastern one, the one of the guest the Southern one. So she means: this little bit of hospitality is definitely no problem...
5.7.1 She says that she 不 是 拿 她 當 外 人 的 ﹣she is not taking her (along?) as an outside person, but someone of the house, family ... and that means she will give her tasks, i.e. will have her spend a lot of energy... 要 她多 多 費 神
個 照 應 I took this a bit like „someone who takes care“ ... i.e. helps out with the kids --- I am pretty nonchalant about verb/nouns, I know and stand to be corrected
liansuo
February 27, 2008, 03:17 PMWhat do you, all in all, make of the entire sentence
5.7.5. 她 決 定 用 她的 前 途 來 下 注。 如 果 她 輪了，她 聲 名 掃 地， 沒 有 資 格 做 五 個 孩子 的 後 母。 I understand it generally as the undesirable opposite of what happens when she wins the gamble - but the details are elusive.
As to 5.7. end: I agree with Marcel's solution.
marcelbdt
February 27, 2008, 04:31 PM她决定用她的前途来下注。 She decides to bet (下注) her future.
如果她输了，她声名扫地，
Here 声名扫地[聲-掃-] shēngmíng sǎodì v.p. fall into disrepute
没有资格做五个孩子的后母。She would not be capable of being the step mother of five.
liansuo
February 27, 2008, 05:22 PMThank you --It helps -- the translations of the individual expressions -- but the whole context ?--- is she just using the five kids --- Jiang is out of he picture after all -- as a kind of description of her certain fate in one shape or the other? Meaning: she just is not the type to fill this role -- and unless she is very lucky that is all she can get?
klgardensong
February 27, 2008, 06:27 PMWow, you've been forging ahead on two fronts, and I'm definitely behind. I still haven't even started on 5.5, much 5.6 or 5.7. But I did start on the other book-don't know if I can't keep this up though.
Luckily, the day-long training I was supposed to give was cancelled due to a major snowfall. Still I'm catching up on other work.
I'll just weigh in on the nasty little smile. I think they're happy that Liu Su's opportunity with Jiang has fallen through. They don't want anything good to happen for her.
K.
marcelbdt
February 27, 2008, 07:19 PMI think that she means that if she loses her game, she will not even have the opportunity of marrying someone like Mr. Ginger.
Kathy, you don't have to keep it up on both fronts, we know that you have other obligations. Pick the front you prefer.
liansuo
February 29, 2008, 10:19 AMYes, Marcel -- that must be the point. I just wish I knew the game the whole episode is actually drawing its metaphers from -- I have a feeling this whole paragraph needs to be translated with concrete gambler terms.
I miss you so much, K.!! Drat those alligators.
klgardensong
March 13, 2008, 01:59 PMI hesitate to think what wild imaginings you may have come up with to account for my long absence – maybe one day you’ll tell me!
Meanwhile, I’ve re-emerged, yet again, and hope to help us close out Chapter 5.
5.5 This whole section confused me, too, especially trying to figure out who the subject is. 眾人覺得徐太太真是善於辭令。前兩天轟轟烈烈鬧著要做媒，忽然烟消火滅了，自己不得下場，便故作遁辭，說兩句風涼話。
Here’s my thinking: 徐太太 has just finished making her surprising/shocking offer. Now we turn to everyone’s reaction: 眾人覺得徐太太真是善於辭令。 I think the next sentence also begins with 眾人覺得徐太太 , although this is not stated.
If we look at it this way, 眾人覺得徐太太前兩天轟轟烈烈鬧著要做媒，忽然烟消火滅了，自己不得下場，便故作遁辭，說兩句風涼話。
Everybody thinks 徐太太 has been running around for two days vigorously matchmaking, and then suddenly the fire goes out (徐太太 runs out of energy or ceases her efforts) but can’t bring herself to 下場 and instead purposely engages in subterfuge(?) and makes sarcastic remarks. Meaning they don’t believe her yet, and can only assume that she’s being sarcastic. What do you think?
5.6.6. Liansuo, I love knowing that 做 東 means "play the host, treat s.one".
5.7 (beginning)個 照 應: I agree with Liansuo that the 個 just makes what by all accounts ought to be a verb into a noun. How very Chinese!
5.7.5. 她 決 定 用 她的 前 途 來 下 注。 如 果 她 輪了，她 聲 名 掃 地， 沒 有 資 格 做 五 個 孩子 的 後 母。 I agree with Liansuo. If she loses the “gamble” her reputation would be ruined and she wouldn’t have the necessary qualifications (資 格) to be stepmother to five children.
Don’t you just love this phrase in 5.7.end?
她可以得到眾人虎視眈眈的目的物範柳原 She can attain the object of everyone’s intense tiger gaze: 範柳原.
marcelbdt
February 26, 2008, 11:03 PM5.3 Liansuo> I think that the fourth lady means (hopes) that since Liusu has upset Mrs. Xu's plan, probably Mrs. Xu will be mad at Liusu, and not help her any more.. so that Liusu tried to steal Fan the chicken, and in doing so lost Jiang the rice.
I'm also not too sure about why the two ladies laugh - maybe Kathy has an idea? Could it be because they think that Mrs. Xu is just giving an excuse to back off from the Jiang plan because of the chicken and the rice?
5.5 (end) 自己不得下场 (But) she did not leave the stage - what is the rationale for the use of 自己?
5.5 (end) 说两句风凉话 Who is making which sarcastic remarks?
5.6 (end) 牺牲一个不相干的孤苦的亲戚 巴结他 Furthering a
5.6 (end) 这点小东 "This is a small thing"? Is 东 short for 东西?
5.7 (beginning) 我是不拿她当外人的，以后还要她多多费神呢！ I'm guessing: "You see, I am bringing her instead of a stranger, who could be quite troublesome afterwards" ?
5.7 (beginning) 凡事也有个照应 "look after everything".. but why the 个?
5.7 (middle) 就算是去逛逛 "It will be a pleasure trip"?
5.7 (end) 流苏的父亲是一个有名的赌徒 Both fourth master and Liusu has gambling in their bloodstream.
5.7 (end) 出净她胸中的这一口恶气 "Clean out the bad feeling from her heart" ?
klgardensong
February 25, 2008, 02:59 PMHi guys!
I’m just getting into Chapter 5, and love the imagery of the first scene. I do have a question about the next to last sentence in 5.1:
一個女人，再好些，得不著異性的愛，也就得不著同性的尊重。
A woman, no matter how good she is (再好些), can’t obtain love from the opposite sex or (even) respect from the same sex.
I’m not entirely clear on the best translation of 再好些. What do you two think?
Thanks in advance,
K.