FOR ADULTS ONLY: A first glimpse at hardcore Chinese grammar
auntie68
September 01, 2008, 09:10 AM posted in General DiscussionMy head is still spinning. But I am absolutely fascinated and hooked. I discovered that I own an out-of-print Chinese reader (by Zhong Qin) which has 5 chapters on Chinese grammar. Each chapter is only a few pages long, and it's written in English. Thought I'd share (the gist of) the introductory chapter here on CPOD. I think it might be useful to learners who are just starting to use Chinese-only dictionaries. Hope this doesn't scare anybody off learning Chinese! You are very welcome to post reactions.
changye
September 02, 2008, 01:12 AMHi frances,
You are right! As you said, 助动词 (auxiliary verbs) actually can stand alone and make a phrase by itself, so it’s fully eligible to be called as 实词 (solid words). Then, how about 量词 (measure words) ? I still don’t think that they can make a phrase by themselves, but this time, let me try to speculate on the reason why 量词 belong to 实词, but not to 虚词 (empty words).
量词 are used in combination with 数词 (numerals), e.g. 一头牛，两口猪，and 三坐山. Now, which do you think is more "concrete" (or abstract), 量词 and 数词? I think numbers are intrinsically very abstract and neutral entities. They are given concrete image only when used with 量词, such as 头，条，家 and 坐. So, 量词 are categorized as 实词 because they give substance to numerals.
I suppose the function of 量词 might be much more important than foreign Mandarin learners generally think. For example, “一座山” gives you more vivid image than just saying “一个山”. The phrase “一口猪” nicely represents characteristics of a pig. The same goes for “一条牛”, since the 条 indicates a long tail of a cow. In a way, 量词 is one of highlights in Chinese grammar.
P/S. Auntie, please let me know when the out-of-print reader was published.
henning
September 01, 2008, 09:36 AMAuntie,
your trick worked on me: I somehow managed to overlook the very last word of this post's title. And so 居然 found myself reading a long post on grammar. ;)
auntie68
September 01, 2008, 09:38 AMTsk tsk.
RJ
September 01, 2008, 12:21 PMThanks Auntie, actually its the “Toto, I don’t think we’re in Kansas any more!” feeling that I love about China and I guess it extends to the language as well. What is your take on the one word sentence 血！?
auntie68
September 01, 2008, 12:35 PMHi rjberki. I loved the "血！" sentence, it was my favourite. So let me see now, it is a 独词句 ("single-word-sentence"), but other than that I can't figure out how to classify it using the other methods. Is it a subject? A predicate? Wow.
If you liked "血!", you probably already love "滚！“ (gun3), which is how Chinese tell people to "beat it!" or "scram!" or "get thee away from me anon, you miserable son of a cur!" in movies. Nice and economical. And that would be a -- what? -- 独词句 which is also a 祈使句 ! A single-word sentence which is also an imperative sentence!
changye
September 01, 2008, 12:47 PMHi auntie68,
Thank you for the X-rated thread. I’m sure that the best way to discourage elementary Mandarin learners from studying is to throw them into the wonderful world of Chinese grammar, especially the classification of parts of speech.
Dividing words into 实词 (solid words) and 虚词 (empty words) actually doesn’t make much sense to me. I guess this grammatical tradition in Chinese might come from 阴阳思想 (yin-yang thought), a philosophy of duality.
According to “现代汉语词典”, 虚词 is defined as “不能单独成句，意义比较抽象，有帮助造句作用的词”, i.e. “虚词” can’t make a phrase by itself. They have a relatively abstract meaning and help other words in making sentences.
In this sense, 副词 (adverb) might be allowed to belong to 虚词, but how about 量词 (measure words) and 助动词 (auxiliary words)? I think “只, 次, 条, 场” (量词) and “将, 要, 想, 该” (助动词) also should be categorized as 虚词.
现代汉语词典 only says that 实词 is “意义比较具体的词” (words that have relatively concrete meanings), and however it cleverly doesn’t define 实词 as “能单独成语”, because 量词 and 助动词 can’t meet this requirement.
The word “马上” (soon) is an adverb, and therefore it can’t make a phrase by itself, but Chinese waitresses often say ”马上!” at a restaurant. I know that it’s a shortened form of “你的菜马上就来”, but I can’t accept that it is a 虚词.
henning
September 01, 2008, 12:52 PMSorry, English question.
RJ, what does "Toto, I Don't Think We're in Kansas Anymore" refer to and what does it mean? I get nearly 8000 Google hits for the phrase but it is neither in my dictionaries nor in Wikipedia (except for a reference to a kid movie)?
auntie68
September 01, 2008, 09:11 AM6. In my humble opinion, things start to get really interesting and exotic when we get to the part where the component parts of the language are broken down (#2: Syntactical features):
· By the component parts of a sentence (ie. different kinds of 语)； and
· By classifying sentences based on (i) structure (ie. the different kinds of 语 which make up any given sentence); or (ii) function (ie. different kinds of 句)。
7. Here are the components of a sentence (6 categories):
· Subjects 主语 zhu3yu3
· Predicates 谓语 wei4yu3
· Objects 宾语 bing1yu3
· Attributives 定语 ding4yu3
· Adverbial adjuncts 状语 zhuang4yu3
· Complements 补语 bu3yu3
This is the point where I started to get that “Toto, I don’t think we’re in Kansas any more!” feeling. My book provides some nice examples, which I don’t have time to copy out now, but if anybody has specific requests, just let me know so that I can try to share (especially since this title is out of print).
8. The next section provided more confirmation that I was in the Land of Oz, wearing my red ruby shoes. Okay. If you classify sentences according to their structure, a Chinese person would arrive at 3 basic categories:
· Subject-Predicate sentences 主谓句 zhu3wei4ju4
o 他喜欢打猎。
o 味道还好吗？
o 孔夫子山东人。
o 金华火腿果然味道好。
· Impersonal sentences 无主句 wu2zhu3ju4
o 怎么，下起雨来了？
· Single-word sentences 独词句 du2ci2ju4
o 注意
o 血！
Hmm…
9. And that same Chinese person would use the following 4 concepts to classify sentences according to function:
· Declarative Sentences 陈述句 chen2shu4ju4
o 下雨了。
· Interrogative Sentences 疑问句 yi2wen4ju4
o 下雨了吗？
· Imperative Sentences 祈使句 qi2shi3ju4
o 喂，轻疑点儿！
· Exclamatory Sentences 感叹句 gan3tan4ju4
o 多了不起！
10. I believe that this sums up the “Outline of Modern Chinese Grammar”. I found it very interesting to see it all laid out in this way by my textbook. The emphasis on classifying and analysing sentences – sentences vs unique words -- made sense to me, given that Chinese is an “isolating” language, where shades of meaning – as well as precision -- are conveyed by word order (IMHO the biggest hurdle for Newbies struggling to get beyond the “unintelligible post” stage of learning).
HTH. Thanks and good luck, everybody!
auntie68
September 01, 2008, 01:01 PM@henning: The "Toto-" line is a line from the Wizard of Oz, where Dorothy realizes for the first time that the tornado has carried her, and her dog Toto, quite a bit further that she had thought. Instead of merely being blown to another corner of Kansas, she has been blown all the way to the magical Kingdom of Oz. HTH.
henning
September 01, 2008, 01:05 PMThanks, auntie, and sorry for hijacking this excellent thread.
changye
September 01, 2008, 01:09 PMI hear that American people usually laught at this line when seeing Oz, ....perhaps except for Kansas people? Haha.
RJ
September 01, 2008, 01:11 PMHenning, I was actually surprised that Auntie knew this line, but she gets around. In the US all kids watched this movie on an annual basis on tv when I was growing up. The line refers to the vast difference between where she finds herself as opposed to where she came from. Kind of an understatement in her situation so it has come to mean dont expect anything to be as you would expect, from here on out. You are no longer involved in anything familiar.
Auntie - Tell me more about this Naomi Tani.
auntie68
September 01, 2008, 01:13 PMOh no, Henning, it's great (to me) that this thread isn't simply being buried for the moment. If the feedback is positive, I'll have a go at sharing the other four chapters.
The next chapter looks quite challenging; it deals with the question, "When is a Word Not a Word?". By this, I think they are referring to the question of what is a discrete, autonomous word -- ie a 词 -- which of course determines whether you should (or should not) split up the individual 字 with a 不 or 得 or 了 etc. Eg. 吃了饭 vs 吃饭了. Right now I do this instinctively, but it would be nice to know the actual reasons why.
@rjberki: Erm, Naomi Tani is a Japanese actress, so I think it's better if you ask changye.
RJ
September 01, 2008, 01:30 PM@auntie - I looked her up. Interesting Bio.
wispy7
September 01, 2008, 02:32 PM@auntie - This is great! Please add more pages if you have time.A book recommended to me by my teacher in Beijing, 语法答问 by 朱德熙 is a slim, thorough introduction to Chinese grammar written in simple language for the Native Chinese non-linguist. Highly recommended and still in print!
frances
September 01, 2008, 07:51 PM@changye, about 量词 (measure words) and 助动词 (auxiliary verbs), here's where (if I understand this) I think they fit into the 实词 (solid words) class.
Auxiliary words are literally often sentences all by themselves, which I think makes them automatically "solid" unless they can be considered 叹词 (Interjections). For example: 你想吃吗？ 想。Though 想 is often a 动词 (Simple Verb), in the question it's definitely being used as an auxiliary. If I understand this correctly, this should mean that in the answer it is still an auxiliary, and the entire answer is an auxiliary verb working as a complete sentence. As the answer to a question, it could not possibly be an interjection, even when shouted.
Measure words often graduate from counting the thing to being the thing when the noun is omitted due to the excessive lack of other possible nouns in context. By this logic, a measure word deserves all the respect due a noun, because it may have to stand for one at any moment. Nouns can be considered to be phrases in Chinese... I just pulled my own Chinese grammar off the shelf where it has been collecting dust to confirm. So, nouns can be phrases, and they can abandon their measure words to hold the fort without them... making measure words into phrases.
It makes sense to me, but whether it's an advancement of my Chinese or merely intellectual sophistry, I don't know.
Now I want to look through my own grammar book to see if it discusses this whole solid/empty word concept.
auntie68
September 01, 2008, 12:58 PMDear changye, I think I shall dedicate this thread to Naomi Tani, the greatest x-rated actress in the history of Asian film. Thanks!
P/s: Jokes aside, the kinds of issues that you wrote about were very relevant to me, as a learner. Thank you for that. I'm not interested in learning how to parse Chinese sentences; what I think I am getting from this exercise is a better understanding of the definitions and explanations in my "Chinese-only" dictionary.
auntie68
September 01, 2008, 09:11 AMHere goes:
1. Chinese grammatical concepts are a very different animal from anything to be found in an Indo-european language. I think that most learners eventually sense this at some point. Probably after they’ve been clobbered a few times by words which seem to morph between being nouns and verbs and adjectives (and what-have-you), depending on the context.
2. For example, the introductory “Outline of Modern Chinese Grammar”chapter offers two approaches:
· Categorization by morphological features (ie. different kinds of 词); and
· Analysis of syntactical features (ie. different kinds of 语, different kinds of 句).
3. Regarding #1 (Morphological features), Chinese words can be divided into one of two broad categories:
· 实词 (shi2ci2; “solid words”); or
· 虚词 (xu1ci2; “empty words”).
If it were up to me, I would translate these terms as “substantial words”/”non-substantial words”.
4. The 实词 (shi3ci2; “solid words”) category is organized into 9 subcategories:
· Nouns (名词) ming2ci2
· Pronouns (代词) dai4ci2
· Verbs (动词) dong4ci2
· Auxiliary verbs (助动词) zhu4dong4ci2
· Adjectives (形容词) xing2rong2ci2
· Numerals (数词) shu4ci2
· Measure words (量词) liang4ci2
· Prefixes (词头) ci2tou
· Suffixes (词尾) ci2wei3
5. The 虚词 (xu1ci2; “empty words”) category is organized into 6 subcategories:
· Adverbs 副词 fu4ci2
· Prepositions 介词 jie4ci2
· Conjunctions 连词 lian2ci2
· Particles 助词 zhu4ci2
· Interjections 叹词 tan4ci2
· Onomatopoetic words 象声词 xiang4sheng1ci2