big jump to intermediate

Hi billzorn! Have you tried the very first intermediate lessons? Beginning there I have found the rhythm quite easy to cope with... until John came up ;) I'm sure John embodies the gap for many of us, but if you follow every step you'll find that it's only another step. The gap is a myth among those who try to jump steps and fall. That's not a running jump across the gap...

This is all really great feedback. Henning always provides guaranteed quality insight, but I'm really happy to see such valuable info in mark and erikalee's experiences as well. Erika, that game you describe sounds great! I always had a problem with "story chain" activities or games where you build a sentence word by word, but your non-linear approach to building the sentence makes it much more cognitive and engaging. I appreciate the support you all are giving for the level system I designed. It's a tricky thing, and I got involved after there were already quite a few difficult Newbie lessons and easy Intermediate lessons, so total uniformity of difficulty was virtually impossible. We recognize that there are still a few issues there, and we're still working on them, but I am confident that the situation is getting better, and this is borne out by the user responses and the gradual decrease in complaints about this issue. Perhaps one of the best ways we can help learners with this issue is to provide more information about exactly how much work people should expect to have to put in to progress from level to level. This would differ from person to person, but it would clearly be useful for people to know that it takes more work to get from Elementary to Intermediate than it does to get from Newbie to Elementary.

Bill- Many have raised this concern, so you're not alone. But jumping from conversational to fluency is very hard. Kids have 10 years or more to do this with a native language, but probably most of us here would rather it be quicker. Stick with it for a couple of months and I think you'll find improvement that you wouldn't have with a less shocking progression.

I agree with Ron. Stick with it for a while. With John in there in the mix, in the later Intermediate podcasts, you hear a fair bit of English. Don't forget the dialog tab in the lesson. You can play the same sentence over and over again, and hover to get the meanings of the words. Like this, you can make one Intermediate last for a week.

I think that part of the problem is the gap between newbie and elementary needs to be greater. (That may be what Kitty aludes to...) I don't really have a good solution but can try to give my perception as a slightly advanced newbie that has studied Mandarin only as a side interest for 3-4 years. I find little diference difficulty-wise between newbie and elememtary.

I've been self studying Chinese for five years. I think I put an equivalent of one 5 unit University course's effort into it every week. Eli's and newbie's sometimes have some new vocabulary for me. Intermediate's are relatively easy, but I need to read the transcripts to understand them entirely. UI's are sometimes a challenge to understand completely, but I can understand the key points after some study. Advanced is similar, but I never completely understand the explanitory dialogs in the podcasts. I got to the point of being able to follow natural speed speach by memorizing some dialogs and listening to them over and over again. I don't know if this helps anyone, but it is my experience.

Mark how is your conversational Chinese?

If you were to take Mandarin while in college, Newbie is what you may learn in first semester Chinese, Elementary in 2nd semester. Intermediate in 2nd Year, and Upper Intermediate in 3rd Year. However, to me, both Newbie and Elementary seems to be what one would learn in the First Year.

I think the main problem for me (besides never knowing enough vocab) is grammar and sentence structure. (I like the new extra section, btw.) I often understand all or almost all of a sentence, but still can't figure out what it means. I'm not sure how I'll ever get passed this point except by listening a lot and asking you all a bunch of questions. But I think that those big jumps in levels may just be how it goes with languages, Chinese in particular because of the extra challenges imposed by tones and learning characters, etc.. One thing I really appreciate (even though I can't understand the advanced or upper intermediates so well) is that you all go BEYOND the beginning. Most texts, tapes, etc.. only go to lower intermediate and then stop. The World Languages store at Yale U. has a series that takes the next step, but C-Pod's method is better. RosettaStone I love, because it lets me repeat and test myself, but they never explain grammar and at some point you can't figure out what they're saying without it. And I tried the university course thing. At least at Indiana University, where they brag about how great their Chinese program is, the instruction sucks _(noun)__ and is really designed for Chinese-Americans who speak but don't read, non-Chinese asian kids, and cantonese speakers wanting to learn mandarin. It's not for the student starting from scratch. Plus, it's fast.. much like someone said earlier. You get to upper intermediate by year three. Only you have to not only understand what's being said, but speak back, read and write in both traditional and simplified, and basically be fluent at a level that I really truly wasn't after only two years. I still think I'm in that intermediate zone where I can't think in Chinese and have to translate everything in my head first. Or worse, know lots of word but can't make them into sentences anyone understands, despite understanding a lot of what is said to me. BTW.. the Chinese guy in the new movie "Ocean's Thirteen" was fun.. you don't need to understand what he says for the plot, but I liked that I did. Matt Damon's Chinese.. not so good, and I don't mean "mei bu cuo."

erikalee, that all sounds *very* familar - although I never had the time to try out the University courses. I feel I made progress breaking the grammar code within the last year listening to all those CPod lessons. Still I often miss nuances. And of course vocab is always an issue - especially active usage. All those whining about the Elementry-Intermediate gap: Wait for the Intermediate-Advanced one. That is the scary part. The two things I want to seriously address now are grammar and perfecting pronounciation.

Erikalee, thank you for expressing how I feel sometimes. I know lots of words and can't get them together into sentences quick enough to contribute to a conversation even though I get the gist of what is being said. It is reassuring to just know that this is not just happening to me. Maybe it is part of language acquisition.

Exactly wei1xiao4! Either I understand the words, but not the sentence, or I get it, but then they've moved on to something else by the time I think of how to say something.. sigh. me too. I know if I could live in China or Taiwan for awhile, I'd probably get over that. Until then.. [and thanks henning! good to know your practice is working.. don't feel too bad about missing the university classes.. as for pronunciation, mine isn't too bad partially because I used to be a singer and I think that helps me.. but also, (please no one make fun of me.. this is actually how I do it) I attach a color tone or a feeling (hard to explain I know) to each tone, so ma1, ma2, ma3, ma4 "look" different to me when I hear or say them. My issue is when they get used in sentences, they blur a bit in my head and sometimes I get the tone wrong. Don't worry if you now think I'm crazy. My husband will agree. BUT, there's a book about a journalist who travels around the world as a correspondent with the family cat in tow. He has to learn Mandarin and they teach him each tone is associated with a color.. primaries I think.. red, yellow, green and blue. Maybe Ken knows more about this kind of learning.. don't know.] Anyway. I do think my listening, pronunciation and vocab have improved with ChinesePod. Not so sure about my grammar patterns. C-Pod doesn't delve as deeply into that with this format, but perhaps in their new QingWen section or as yet to be filled Grammar section. There's a game my husband and I play in the car or waiting for planes that really helps my grammar though. Part of my problem is constructing sentences beyond "noun verb adjective STOP" so we start with a simple sentence in English. I translate, he corrects me if I need it, then he gives me a more complex version. (btw, I don't actually like shopping much, unless it's for power tools, books or kitchen supplies.) "I went shopping" "I went shopping at the mall" "My friends and I went shopping at the mall" "Last week, my friends and I spent all day shopping at the mall" You get the idea.. That REALLY REALLY helps. It's sentence construction at its most basic. Maybe that's what we elementary-intermediate folks need? The FIX helps with vocab, and somewhat with getting over the "thick-tongue" syndrome I get in the second part where they use the vocab in basic sentences. But I still freeze up, still can't parse long sentences said to me very well, still can't imagine forming them to answer someone back. Someday I'll be posting all my messages in characters and listening to the advanced lessons and looking cool too. Like Bazza with those sunglasses.

erikalee, that game you play with your husband is exactly what we need in The Fix!

Dave, I can carry on a conversation on most topics, if I am talking to someone who is patient with the fact that my Chinese contains lots of grammer mistakes, bad tones and pauses while I think of a word or circuitous method for getting my thought across, and is willing to explain the words they say that I don't understand.