phonetic map : 栗 li

goulnik

January 14, 2009, 06:34 AM posted in General Discussion

* 栗 lì chestnut 醋栗 cùlì gooseberry 栗果 lìguǒ acorn 栗鼠 lìshǔ squirrel	栗 lì to tremble 股栗 gǔlì to tremble with fear 惨栗 cǎnlì bitterly cold	溧 lì . 溧凉 lìliáng chilly
	傈 Lì . 傈僳族 Lìsùzú (ethnic minority in Yunnan)

goulnik

January 14, 2009, 06:37 AM

note : 栗 is not the same character as 票, although both contain the 要字头 component 覀 (yà)

注意

股栗 (gǔlì) has the same pronunciation as 鼓励, to encourage; urge

changye

January 14, 2009, 06:45 AM

Here is another character that confuses you.

粟 (su4, foxtail millet) = 小米 (xiao3 mi3)

goulnik

January 14, 2009, 06:57 AM

哈哈, both contain 覀 (yà) which is supposed to be a picture of grain. 覀 is not the same as 西 (xī) West.

not exactly sure there is any difference between 襾 and 覀, master changye please advise.

襾 and 覀 (= 西) are originally different two characters, but they sometimes have the same form "西" in 楷书 style. "襾" indicates the shape of "a lid", and is used for, e.g. 覆 (fu4, cover) and 贾 (gu3, buy).

The character "西" originally indicated "a maund, a basket", but not "west". And probably this is the reason that "西" is used for some kinds of grains such as 粟 and 栗.

Incidentally, the original meanings of 東/西/南/北 all had nothing to do with "direction". For example, "东" meant "a bag, a sack", but not "east", at the early stage of Chinese characters.

And that is the very reason why the word "東西" (dong1 xi) is still used in the sense of "things, stuff" in modern Chinese. You usually carry "things" in a sack (东) or a basket (西).

goulnik

January 14, 2009, 08:26 PM

changye, according to the 《利氏汉法大字典》 (Dictionnaire Ricci des Caracteres Chinois), a scholarly piece of work from the Jesuists in Macao, the earliest etymology of 西 is a pictogram of a bird seated on its nest. It came to represent the West because birds are nesting when the sun sets (to the West). This dictionary only carries characters with lots of historical references, 13,500 individual characters over 22,000 long pages and a well-respected reference. This is different from the Grand Ricci, a humungus 7 volumes word dictionary carrying over 300,000 compounds from the same corpus.

changye

January 15, 2009, 02:09 AM

Hi goulniky,

The bird-nest version is another prevailing etymology of "西", which is originated in the definition of the character in 说文解字 (ca. 100 A.D.). 说文 says that 鸟在巢上，象形，日在西方而鸟栖，故因为东西之西.

I also think this is a very attractive etymology. In both cases, ancient Chinese people associated the character with a nest/a basket or something like that. In short, it's a thing that contains something.

P/S. Looks like 《利氏汉法大字典》 is a good dictionary!