Advice on a specific Pronounciation Problem
tingyun
May 21, 2009, 12:42 AM posted in General DiscussionHi - I'm looking for advice on solving a very specific pronounciation problem.
When I pronounce a 3rd tone syllable that has the final "ang", I have a tendancy to sound like I'm instead saying "eng". The problem doesn't seem to occur in any other tone (and usually doesn't happen unless the syllable is at the end of the phrase - ie no real problem in the "half-third tone" - so I say tang3xia4 fine, but tang3 alone has a problem). I think its something about the very low point of the third tone that trips me up in this respect, and causes a drift into a "eng" type sound, but I'm not certain. Perhaps I'm trying to stress the ng nasal aspect too much, and for some reason this causes an "eng" like sound.
But its been a persistent problem for me for more than a month, and I haven't been able to figure out how to solve it. I'd really appreciate any advice anyone has on this issue. Even if its just suggesting drills you used to solve other pronounciation problems - though certainly if anyone has insight into this specific issue, that would be most helpful.
But please, no references to pinyin charts, or general resources for pronounciation of the "ang" final.
rita628
May 30, 2009, 03:04 PM呵呵，不用谢
sfrrr
May 21, 2009, 06:22 AMI don't know if this will help anyone else, but when I asked my Chinese teacher that question, she told me to open my mouth more.
tingyun
May 21, 2009, 03:25 PMThanks Lechuan - those diagrams are certainly interesting. I think the recording idea might help - when I'm with tutors, they give perfect feedback, but there's also a feeling of pressure. Maybe in a more relaxed enviorment on my own I'll be able to fix matters.
Sfrrr - Thanks for the comment, actually, I used to have this same problem in all four tones, and I fixed it with the others by using a mirror and forcing myself to open my mouth wide. So your advice is dead-on - only for some reason the 3rd tone has resisted it.
I spent a couple of hours experimenting (and doing a few recording as per Lechuan's advice) - and I made some progress fixing it by backing it up to the a sound, and then lightly adding a ng (ex saying fa3, then fa3 + a tiny bit of ng). I'll try that for awhile. I don't have the problem with word like xiang, jiang, and I think thats because I'm stressing the begining of the word more than the "ng".
But if anyone else has any suggestions, I'd more than welcome them. I imagine I'll be working on this one for at least a few weeks...
bababardwan
May 21, 2009, 11:22 PMtimslsui,
Are you aware of the programme "My Chinese Coach" for Nintendo DS where part of the programme has a function where you can record your voice and compare it with the native recording? It's pretty basic but still good to get the immediate feedback and comparison.I think there are other similar programmes out there where your voice can be analysed and compared in more detail,though I haven't specifically chased them down for Chinese.
John
May 22, 2009, 02:45 AMtimslsui,
Since you can pronounce the "ang" final no problem in some combinations but not others, I'm afraid the only solution is practice. The good news is that you are aware of the problem. That, in my opinion, is more than half the battle. Keep working at it; a month is really not a long time. You will get over it!
To give some examples from my own learning process, I remember having trouble properly distinguishing "che" and "chi" (I would usually pronounce "che" as "chi" because I was more familiar with that syllable). It probably went on for 2-3 months (and this is even living in China!), but I became aware of the problem, and by just consciously working on it, I eventually overcame it.
If it makes a difference, I've done a fair amount of research on tones and tone problems foreigners have for my graduate studies in applied linguistics, and I haven't run into any mention of systematic interference between tones and the pronunciation of finals.
加油！
tingyun
May 22, 2009, 04:16 PMThanks John - actually, yesterday I used your sinosplice article on Praat to set it up (not so much for the tone analysis, but rather just to have a good program to test myself occasionally while I practice). Actually, I must be a bit of a problem-child with tones messing with finals - my longest problem was with qu,ju,xu, where only in the 4th tone, it would sound like I was saying the normal "u" without the umlauts. Then I fixed that, but suddenly it was a nasally sound in the 4th tone. Finally killed that problem a couple of weeks ago...
I really appreciate your encouragment, and I will keep working on it. Thanks!
Bababardwan - I think Praat suffices for my purposes, as I know what the right sound is (though my mouth stubbornly refuses to behave). Plus, if I bought a Nintendo DS, I have a feeling the games would end up distracting me from Chinese studies;)
PS - Sorry to everyone about my screenname changing lately - I'm trying to organize my zune cpod playlists of lessons I'm studying into several different groups, and being computer incompetent, the only way I've figured how to do that is to change my screenname and thus the url for my podcast feed, which the zune thinks is a seperate podcast and thus splits it into seperate playlists. It will go back to a consistent, less letters version shortly...
antony73
May 22, 2009, 10:26 PMtimslsa
In my limited experience I have found that practicing difficult tones and sounds face to face with a native speaker is the best way to get it right. Seeing how the words are said, very closely watching the speakers mouth is far more effective, even if only on DVD.
Massively over emphasizing words in the initial learning process has also helped with difficult words. Try using an accent. It's very strange but I find using a Northern accent helps. Maybe this is due to my first introduction to Mandarin being Pimsleur and first the native speaker I became friends with was a 东北人.
Sounds wierd, but have you tried practicing at a higher speaking volume?
zhenlijiang
May 23, 2009, 12:10 AMantony73, timslsa,
No--doesn't sound weird to me at all. In fact though I would not have thought this advice applied for a guy, I find it is very helpful to speak in a 娘娘腔 manner, and always wanted to ask the girls out there if anyone else feels the same. Actually, adopting a higher-than-normal (possibly revolting) speaking tone does not make me sound any better. What it does is make the physical effort of making the correct sounds much easier. I say try it, by all means (at your risk of sounding 娘娘腔!).
bababardwan
May 21, 2009, 06:12 AMGreat answer lechuan !! We all benefit from this,so thanks.
rita628
May 25, 2009, 03:39 PMtimslsm
hi, i'm a Chinese,i hope ican help u to solve some problems,i don't think the diagrams can help u,like we learn english,we can't learn anything from the diagrams, we need to learn from teacher,and wacth their mouth, to learn how to put our tongue,and to imitate them. so i sugguest you to have more communication with chinese,and to imitate their pronounciation,maybe u will think what i said is all no importance or usefulness,but this is what i wanna say to u
lechuan
May 26, 2009, 12:00 AMrita628,
I agree that having access to a native speaker is very important But I disagree that Sammy diagrams can't help. They help both teacher and student to visualize how sounds are created.
rita628
May 26, 2009, 05:37 AMLechuan
hehe, maybe it's useful when there is no one u can learn from, but don't u think that diagrams is hard to understand ?
that is just my opinion ,everyone has their own way to learn ,but i don't think diagrams is a good way to learn chinese.
lechuan
May 26, 2009, 06:33 AM@rita628 I agree. Diagrams are not a good way to learn Chinese. And diagrams alone will not teach you how to make the sound. You need to hear it. The feedback and coaching from the native speaker is invaluable.
BUT Sammy Diagrams are a good way to describe the position how we use our the different parts of our vocal system to produce a specific sounds. I have had some experience tutuoring ESL, and Sammy diagrams were a very helpful tool to help learners understand what they need to do with mouth/lips/tongue etc to make the sounds that they previously could not.
rita628
May 26, 2009, 08:44 AM
i hope i can help u ,when u have some questions in chinses, and all the foreigner can learn chinese well!
tingyun
May 26, 2009, 03:29 PMThanks to everyone for their advice and support - after alot of work, I had a phone session last night with one of my Chinese friends, and she certified the problem is fixed across all the "ang" final permutations (zhang, zhuang, ang, fang....).
Now, still alot of work to make sure it remains correct in relaxed speech - there is a great difference between being able to do it correctly and always doing it correctly without even thinking about it.
But again, thanks to everyone for their advice and support.
Rita, 感谢你的意见。我也认为跟会说中文的朋友练习是最重要的。还好我有一些很好的华人朋友。不过，我觉得最好应该用各种各样的方式支持中文的学习。
antony73
May 23, 2009, 08:35 AMzhenlijiang
娘娘腔 - interesting, never looked at it that way before. Makes sense though, since most of my face to face "lessons" have been with 女人, I find they often speak much clearer than 男人.
lechuan
May 21, 2009, 02:54 AMHopefully this is not what you meant by general resources for pronouncing the "ang" final...
For what it's worth, Here are some sample Sammy Diagrams from my Far East Mandarin Pronunciation CD-ROM (http://www.twinbridge.com/detail.aspx?ID=50) (I captured the part of the animation for the vowel sound, not the ng):
Note the difference not only in tongue, but mouth opening position.
May be helpful to try the four tones with familiar english words. ie. hung, lung, rung, sung, tongue
Record yourself and play it back, it provides new perspective (maybe you're saying it right after all!)