Language vs Dialect
sydcarten
August 11, 2009, 10:30 PM posted in General DiscussionThe differing regional forms of spoken Chinese: Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka etc. seem to be in many cases not mutually intelligible. Lack of mutual intelligibility is a defining characteristic between dialects and languages in related European spoken language, for example, French, Portugues and Italian.
Why is it then that they are referred to as dialects, rather than as separate languages?
Is it because all Chinese people share one system of writing, and a common ethnic/cultural identity?
Or is it a manifestation of Mandarin linguistic chauvinism?
Or is it, dare I say, because the words 'separate' or 'separation' and their synonyms are politically abhorrent?
aprilwhite
August 12, 2009, 01:28 AMhttp://www.pinyin.info/readings/texts/east_asian_languages.html#chinese_dialects
changye
August 12, 2009, 12:15 AMHi sydcarten
As xiaophil pointed out above, demarcation between languages and dialects is highly political. For example, Swedish and Danish are generally regarded as two different languages, although (I hear) both peoples don't have much difficulty communicating with each other. The same is very true for Malay and Indonesian.
xiaophil
August 12, 2009, 12:19 AMsydcarten
Naw, 你会说中文吗？was one of the first sentences I learned. The character 文's meaning is a bit elusive, but it can imply literature, spoken language and culture all in one.
sydcarten
August 12, 2009, 12:25 AMIt's certainly true for Malay and Indonesian.
Indonesian was originally bahasa Melayu adopted as the official language after independence from the Netherlands.
But Indonesian also includes a lot of loan words from Dutch, which do not exist in Malay.
Additionally, bahasa Indonesia has deviated a bit from bahasa Melayu in the past few decades. Words in common use in Malaysia have now either dropped out of modern Indonesian altogether or have deviated from their original meaning. This has been the premise of many jokes about misunderstandings btw Indonesians and Malays.
For example, the word kelamin means 'family' in bahasa Melayu. In bahasa Indonesia this word has come to mean 'genitals'. The Indo word for family is 'keluarga'.
So there is this joke about the Indonesian businessman who is on a business trip to Kuala Lumpur. While sitting in a bar one night he is approached by a very attractive woman who strikes up a conversation with him.
Finally she askes him, "So, did you bring your kelamin (family) with you?"
He replies, "My kelamin (genitals)? Of course I brought my kelamin, I never go anywhere without my kelamin!"
changye
August 12, 2009, 12:26 AMHi sydcarten
That's right. 中文 usually connotes "written Chinese". Historically Chinese people have placed great importance on written Chinese, and this is the reason that Chinese lanugeage is sometimes called "中文". In generall, Chinese dialects don't have their written forms (of course, you can write in dialects, though). In other words, there are no books and newspapers written in dialects with some exceptions. In this sense, the term "中文" is not so appropriate when referring to Chinese dialects.
sydcarten
August 12, 2009, 12:14 AMI thought that 中文 refers specifically to written Chinese, which is the same for all forms of spoken Chinese anyway.
sydcarten
August 12, 2009, 12:47 AMI had gotten into the habit of referring to spoken Mandarin as 汉语, rather than 中文
I also make the distinction when referring to English, German etc of saying 英语 for spoken English and 英文 for for written English/English literature etc
xiaophil
August 12, 2009, 12:49 AMHi changye
To tell you the truth, I get the feeling 中文 is kept purposely vague because defining it too clearly would disrupt 和谐. But this is just another one of my theories without real justification.
changye
August 12, 2009, 12:56 AMHi xiaophil
You are right again. The term 中文 is more nuetral (for Chinese authorities/ethnic minority peoples) than 汉语, and I guess the Chinese governemnt prefer using 中文 to using 汉语 in order to realize 和谐社会, hehe. On the other hand, the term 汉语 is mainly used in academic books and papers on Chinese language.
changye
August 12, 2009, 01:21 AMHi sydcarten
I think so. Actually, "国语" was frequently used by scholars/intelligentia before the war in mainland China, like 国语罗马字, and the term was transferred to Taiwan together with Kuo Min Tang (the KMT). In the PRC, 国语 was later replaced with 普通话.
P/S Terima kasih banyak atas lawak jenaka anda!
changye
August 12, 2009, 12:45 AMHi xiaophil
You are right. Actually, I have a book titled "实用中文会话", hehe.
xiaophil
August 12, 2009, 12:01 AMI think there are these reasons:
A) Translation error. As I think you know, Chinese uses the words 语言 and 方言 to convey language and dialect. When translating them into English they did the best they could, but much like translating 龙 into 'dragon', the translations aren't perfect. I thought about it for a minute, and I remembered that Chinese often doesn't bother expressing plurals. Therefore, does 中文 equal 'the language of China' or 'the languages of China'? Hmmm...
B) I figure politics is another reason. The Chinese government knows that people from different regions often don't get along well. The Chinese government also knows that occasional civil wars are present throughout their history. Thus, like you said, anything implying separation is taboo in China.
C) I think there is a bit of cultural chauvinism here, but I don't think that is so bad. It isn't too uncommon for people to show some pride in their heritage. There are two ironies, though. One, Chinese people are supposed to prefer modesty. Two, the Communist party wants it both ways, i.e. they tried damndest to eliminate the 'backwards' old ways, but now they love talking about their '5000 years history'. Again, both were almost definitely political.
PS: I have never got a straight answer as to whether or not Chinese minority languages are 中文.