Usefulness of CPod to advanced students
simonpettersson
December 27, 2009, 08:27 PM posted in General DiscussionSo here's a thing: I haven't been listening to CPod dialogues for the past two weeks. This might not seem like much, but considering my usual pace of a lesson a day, it's pretty big. Is it because of holiday stress? No, actually I've found myself having more time to study during the holidays. It's because I've been able to use native material in my study.
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm by no means at the Advanced level. I'm quite comfortable at UI, but switching on the webradio on a Chinese language station gives me a big challenge to understand more than the gist of what is being discussed. Formal language is completely incomprehensible. However, watching a Chinese TV series with Chinese subtitles, I can follow the story pretty well, and I'm good enough to identify the parts I don't understand, look them up if I feel I'm missing a crucial point, and add them to my personal vocab list if I feel it's stuff I want to learn right now.
This way, I get new words to study every day and I'm getting lots and lots of input, thus exposure to grammar patterns. And in all of this I'm not using CPod as anything but a vocab manager (adding the words in CPod and then syncronizing with my iPhone is easier than adding them directly in my iPhone). I sometimes use the Skritter tool, but as most often it doesn't recognize half of the words I study (or more, as I'm often adding entire phrases), it's not very useful to me.
ChinesePod seems to be of little use to me. This is, of course, not because of some failing of ChinesePod (quite the opposite, in fact). It's certainly the best program out there and it has massive amounts of interesting lessons. But those massive amounts pale in comparison to the native language material I can now use as a base in my studies. A single TV series has more input than all the UI dialogues put together! Of course CPod cannot compete with that. It can't and shouldn't. Its very purpose is to get people to access these materials.
So my question to people at my level or above is: how are you using the 'Pod? What value does CPod offer you if you can access and make sense of native material? 'Cause I must admit, if my subscription was about to expire right now, I might not resubscribe (ironically, it won't expire until November 2011).
Please note: I'm certainly not fluent; I have serious trouble with reading any kind of website in Chinese and a newspaper would certainly be out of my league. But I can understand enough to be able to use these things to improve on my own. I know enough so that if I look up the words I don't know, I can understand the sentences. I might encounter some weird patterns that are hard to guess at, but then there's free forums like Chinese-Forums of Polyglot Forums where I could ask questions and get answers (and anyway, I could ask them here with a free account).
This is a post of questions and ponderings, and not accusations. I love ChinesePod and it's brought me to this point much faster than any other method could have. But at this point I feel like I can make do on my own. I feel like I'm ready to try my wings. However, there are obviously greater heights in ChinesePod that I could aspire to (the Advanced and Media levels), so I'm wondering how people use them. Are they there for people with a learning style different from mine, or is there some benefit that I'm missing? Because, as I said, even though I'm not at that level, I feel I no longer really need ChinesePod.
bababardwan
December 29, 2009, 12:57 AMExcellent answer John.Currently I tend to use DVD's as a barometer of my progress in comprehension rather than a main source of learning.But I also do agree that everyone learns differently and that whatever keeps your interest and motivation up is important,and watching native media can be a fun way to go.I think exposure to multiple inputs can be really beneficial and reinforcing.
Simon,
However, the case could be made that at the higher levels, you already know the high-frequency stuff and the vocab you need to learn is these seldom-used words present in the native material.
I think the key point was about efficiency.If you do already know all the vocab at Advanced and Media levels then I would think sure,you're going to learn more from the native material [but how many of us here ,you included,really do know all the vocab at these higher levels?].I would think this is something that can be measured.Go spend half an hour on an Advanced lesson you haven't studied before and then count up the new vocab.Do the same for the native material for half an hour.Then look up their frequency of use number[because I think this is roughly the other main point...the differing degrees of what is meant by high frequency,low frequency,and seldom,etc..there's advanced level vocab that of course is not as high frequency as newbie or ellie vocab but it's still much higher frequency than rare vocab like John alluded to in his example..it's all a matter of degree.Though frequency of use lists are often for the characters and not the words...still,you may get a rough idea from this,though I know CPod go more from experience than such lists as the lists have their own biases...still I have faith in CPod's ability to give us the important stuff].You may have 10 new words from an Advanced lesson and perhaps a higher number from the native material [maybe,maybe not] but way down the list in terms of frequency.I suspect you would find way more words from the lessons that are new and higher in frequency than you would from the native material.As John said,this random stuff would balance out over time,but probably a long time and I think the upper level lessons would get one there faster.
I think you are in for an awesome year in China and will do well no matter what approach you take.Jiayou mate! :) It will be good to hear your updates and get your insights once you are there.
xiaophil
December 27, 2009, 11:52 PMI kind of know what you mean, Simon. I no longer listen to CPod lessons to be taught something as in 'the teacher explained this, so now I know' type of learning. It's not that they can't teach me something this way. I am undoubtedly missing out on new knowledge. It's just that I feel it is more efficient and useful to read aloud the dialogs myself. This way, I get used to speaking (in a much more natural way than any so called 口语 textbooks I have had in China), and I can try to figure out the meaning on my own, which I feel is a very valuable skill. If I can't figure something out, the translation is right there. Nowadays, I mostly only listen to podcasts while on the subway.
This might be changing, though. I recently started trying to transcribe a lesson, having been inspired by Tal. I like it because when John and Jenny talk to each other in Chinese, it is real, unscripted Chinese, so in my mind, more 'natural', although limited to teaching style chat.
I also try to limit myself somewhat to posting in English, ironically such as I am here, and spend more time communicating in Chinese. (Incidentally, I hope to see you more around 中文吧, as I really like your humor.) If I use English, ideally I try to make it related to asking questions (but obviously that is an ideal I am not strong enough to uphold).
Overall, CPod is just one piece of the puzzle. I spend A LOT of time reading. There are just so many words that I will never find here because dialogs are by nature simpler than written language. I also take a class, and of course I talk to my wife in Chinese 50% of the time (she needs to improve her English as well).
By the way, I'm impressed that you watch Chinese TV. I sometimes do, but mostly I don't as I don't have patience to watch something I have understand.
simonpettersson
December 28, 2009, 04:27 AMWill answer more later, but first a quick reply regarding Chinese TV: I find you can often sort of keep up with the story even if you don't understand anything that's being said. And the context helps a lot with making sense of what's being said. A great tip is also to watch through a TV series once with English subtitles and then once without them. This way, you already know the story, but not exactly what's being said at any moment. Very useful.
John
December 28, 2009, 06:00 AMsimonpettersson,
Good questions! We certainly wouldn't recommend that you not get out there and use real world TV shows and programs! If you can handle it, just soak it all in. Immerse yourself.
You said:
But those massive amounts pale in comparison to the native language material I can now use as a base in my studies. A single TV series has more input than all the UI dialogues put together!
One thing you might need to watch out for is input versus high-frequency language. To give an example, I once watched a TV series with my wife about a professional grave-robber in Xi'an. As you can imagine, there were all sorts of historical, crime-related, and slangy language that I "learned" but I can be pretty sure I will never use. And then the other language was pretty basic, everyday stuff. So how much did I actually learn from the series? It's really hard to say... I think I can only chalk it up to more "exposure" to the language in one of its many variations, which, over enough time, adds up to native-like fluency.
One of the advantages of using ChinesePod materials is that we put a ton of effort into using useful, high-frequency language. You may not find every UI or Advanced lesson relevant to you, but if it's relevant, you should feel confident that we're presenting language worth learning first. (The same will not be true of just any random TV show.)
As Henning put it:
As I had to scale back my learning massively, CPod has proven a much more robust source of progress than any native material. It is more compact, discusses words and phrases more in-depth, and delivers a broader spectrum of vocab...
I see it as an issue of efficiency. Studying ChinesePod lessons, you'll get the practical, vital language first. Through materials meant for native speakers, it's all pretty much random, and you have to consume an awful lot of it for the randomness to balance out, and for the high-frequency words/phrases to appear in sufficient number to reinforce themselves in your brain. (And you'll have to wade through a big pile of nearly useless, super low-frequency vocab.)
If however, you're getting bored with the ChinesePod format, and TV shows are what you need to keep yourself interested long-term, then don't hesitate!
Also, note that the language material to be covered through the different levels is an inverted pyramid. The majority of the content is at the top, and yet there are still more Newbie lessons than any other level (but only temporarily!). This means there is definitely lots of material we still need to fill in at the higher levels; it's not all there yet! If you need it now, then native speaker programs are a good place to look.
pianyungongyuan
December 28, 2009, 06:50 AMHello,everyone. I read all of your comments. Yes, all of you said are convincing.
You found a way suited to yourself,the methods suited to you are the best way to learn Chinese. Trust me, my friends.
"A single TV series has more input ." maybe suit to simonpettersson.
"To have HSK style learning materials "on board". maybe suit to henning.
"learn a lot from others mistakes+answers" maybe suit to chanelle77.
"speaking in a much more natural way,try to figure out the meaning on his own" maybe suit to xiaophil (小飞侠）O(∩_∩)O~
Oh,The best way to learn Chinese is find your own way.适合自己的，才是最好的！
在组词中学习汉字， 在造句中学习词语， 在文章中学习句子。 不要太在乎语法！
Make Chinese friends,talk with Chinese partners in the Chinese environment,your listening and speaking are unknowingly fastest raising. Perhaps one day you are surprised by yourself, you will speak to yourself:"我的中文提高得太快了，吓死我了”呵呵O(∩_∩)O~
Reading and writing，通过读故事提高阅读能力，通过和朋友写信提高写作能力，这种方法很简单，很方便，很有效。特别是对刚学汉语的朋友特别有效。 最后，朋友们要加油努力！ come on! Baby! HO(∩_∩)O~H
simonpettersson
December 28, 2009, 07:13 AMJohn: That's a very good answer! I think I've got a slightly lopsided perspective over here. My Chinese mostly comes to use through watching these TV series (which I find enjoyable for other than linguistic reasons). I'm not interacting with an everyday Chinese environment. So for me, the stuff in the TV series IS the useful, high-frequency stuff. For someone interacting with native speakers, this might not be the case, of course.
However, the case could be made that at the higher levels, you already know the high-frequency stuff and the vocab you need to learn is these seldom-used words present in the native material.
In English, there are lots of movies and TV series with common, everyday speech, the same as you'd encounter on the street. Is this not the case in Chinese? I've noticed that news tend to be quite formal, so I don't use that for input.
(Here's a tip for people looking for good input: The Chongqing radio station 重庆故事广播电台. It doesn't have much news or music, both of which make for crappy input. Instead, it's lots of stories, as well as some call-in-for-love-advice shows, with lots of natural, informal speech. Here's a link to the radio stream.)
simonpettersson
December 28, 2009, 07:29 AMpianyungongyuan: You're right, of course. Part of the reason for this thread is that I wanted to hear about how others find the higher levels useful, now that I don't find them that useful myself.
More to John: You said:
Through materials meant for native speakers, it's all pretty much random, and you have to consume an awful lot of it for the randomness to balance out, and for the high-frequency words/phrases to appear in sufficient number to reinforce themselves in your brain. (And you'll have to wade through a big pile of nearly useless, super low-frequency vocab.)
I kind of agree and kind of disagree. The idea that you'll be exposed to a lot of low-frequency material and not a lot of high-frequency material seems, well, counter to the very definitions of the words. But at the same time, I think this sheds some light on how I differ from others in my study methods (which only further makes the point pianyungongyuan suggested). For me, wading through hours and hours of native material is both fun, rewarding and, well, the very essence of my learning method. It's how I learned English, it's how I learned French and it's how I intend to learn Chinese. Tons and tons of comprehensible input is key, to my eyes. So once the native material is comprehensible, the fact that there's tons and tons of it makes it essential to my method.
mark
December 28, 2009, 07:37 AMI am not sure if I am an "advanced" student, but I do study the advanced lessons. They are the core of my study program. The most important part for me is having a transcript to study. Otherwise, I may get the gist but miss a lot of details and turns of phrase, etc.
I do supplement with other materials.
Keth
December 28, 2009, 07:46 AMI think a lot of what has been said about learning another language is important and useful, but it is as though people are looking for the “ Holy Grail” of language learning. One comprehensive source that will meet everybody’s needs. This is not is realistic or even desirable. What is of value in my opinion, would be the exchange of “best teaching practice”. So for instance listening to simonpettersson say he watches films with the subtitles. It made me think that recently I read an interesting article about research that showed that in Scandinavian countries where they never watch English TV or films with subtitles as compared with students of languages who live in France or Spain. As a result Scandinavians speak English with less of “foreign “accent than do French or Spanish people.
Now if this research is true, that information would be of great value , because you would naturally think that watching a film with subtitles in the beginning, would be a valuable help.
Another, for me, interesting aspect of learning Chinese, is that I find that Chinese native speakers , living in England , are extremely reluctant to speak with me in Chinese.( Of course I realise that this could be because my Chinese is so bad!) Indeed one person refused to do so, saying that this visit to England was her one opportunity to use and develop her English and that was what she wanted to do. Not speak in Chinese at all. Maybe other people have experienced this response in different countries?
Finally I do like CPod very much and part of its value to me is that it is flexible enough to allow me to invent things that suit my immediate needs. So as a simple example I am now at the stage of being able to read the Chinese characters. So I go back to the extension exercises/dialogues and read them through but I can check out my pronunciation at any time.
chanelle77
December 27, 2009, 11:38 PMHi all, first of all Happy Holidays!
I think Cpod is still very useful for higher levels, but in combination with some "daily life" (e.g. media and social interaction). After living 1.5 years in China and studying (Cpod + private tutoring) for about 1.5 years, I find that my skills developped unequally. Iistening is the best (I like to know what is going on around me), then speaking (Also I *need* to give my opinion about what's going on), then reading and finally, writing.
Probably you guys have something similar, only when you are not in China / have Chinese partner or friends , speaking might be nr 3/4.
I noticed that when I *only* used Cpod (when I was on a 4 month leave in Europe), my Chinese skills did not deteriorate, but did not really improve either. When I got back, I started to make progress again after 1 month (and having additionally private tutoring and of course have total immersion when you live in Nanjing).So speaking for myself, Cpod is not enough.
There are some things (for instance speaking) that Cpod (uness you are Executive maybe) cannot help you with. Also person specific vocab, you need to find yourself. For instance I learnt the words for "red" and "white" name sale imprints "on the spot". Same for my jewellery business.This is very specific vocab and learnt it on my own.
Also like Henning pointed out: HSK practice. If I could make one wish for 2010, this would be it(we got the character practice so who know what happens :-) ).
Beside the things Cpod cannot help you with, it is still very valuable for me. For instance, I think you can still learn a lot from others mistakes+answers, If I only look for instant at Poddie's answers (think about Changye), that is something that I can not easily find anywhere else (even not in China). For me the community is very valuable and a great motivation. I study on my own and I really miss some interaction with fellow students, but uni class is too ineffecient for me and have no one close to me at a similar level to study with.
Most important, I realize that the more I learn, the less I know, and Cpod learns me at least one new thing a day! It is an excellent addition to any more "formal" studies :-)!
henning
December 28, 2009, 09:15 AMSimon,
you wrote:
For me, wading through hours and hours of native material is both fun, rewarding and, well, the very essence of my learning method.
I agree. My problem, however, is that I currently don't have those hours and must compress my learning time.
chanelle77
December 28, 2009, 09:34 AM@Simon Dutch is quite useful in South Africa, Suriname, Namibia, the ABC Islands and (parts of) Belgium :-).
I did not realize "we" were "famous" until moving to China, I heard this a lot.
Because of undubbed cartoons (no dubbing in Holland) I could speak English when I was about 8-10 years old. Besides English we also learn German, French (and sometimes Greek and Latin). Do you learn other scandinavian languages at school?
calkins
December 28, 2009, 09:40 AMI think I remember you saying that you get no speaking practice at all. That would be my biggest suggestion. It sounds like you are able to very quickly and easily memorize loads of vocabulary, grammar structures, etc., and you must have pretty decent listening skills with all the TV and movies you watch.
How about finding a way to put your speaking skills to the test?
simonpettersson
December 28, 2009, 11:17 AMHenning wrote:
My problem, however, is that I currently don't have those hours and must compress my learning time.
I can see how that would be a problem that ChinesePod might be able to help with. Though I find that listening practice can be had during much of even a busy day.
Chanelle77 wrote:
Do you learn other scandinavian languages at school?
Nope. Then again, Swedish, Norwegian and (to a slightly lesser extent) Danish are mutually intelligible. Finnish is not even Indo-European, and it's terribly weird. Few Swedes learn it (but many Finns learn Swedish, no doubt because Finland was a part of Sweden for a very long time).
EDIT: Wait, Finland isn't part of Scandinavia, is it? Ha.
Calkins wrote:
How about finding a way to put your speaking skills to the test?
How does moving to China for a year sound? That will certainly put them to the test. I expect to get a lot of speaking practice then, so I don't feel like I need to get any now. Speaking comes easily if you've got comprehension down, in my experience. I also do a lot of thinking in Chinese, so my active vocab gets a workout that way. And I've done shadowing and pronounciation drills to get the sounds right. All that more or less adds up to speaking practice, as I see it.
RJ
December 28, 2009, 12:09 PMSimon,
Chinese is not like other languages. Speaking is tough, even for a gifted student like you. Every trip I have made to China has been a humbling experience. With Chinese comes a free lesson in humility. Dont pass it up.
btw- you are headed to Foshan for a year. I assume you know that is a Cantonese area. Mandarin is understood by many but its still not a perfect lab for Mandarin study. I enjoyed watching my Shanghai friends struggle there, with a language they could not understand.
Oh, and I agree with 11695. There is no holy grail. If it works for you, then its right for you.
simonpettersson
December 28, 2009, 12:47 PMRJ: I am absolutely convinced it will be quite humbling to speak Chinese at first, and for a long time. But hey, I've got a year, and speaking practice is fun. I'd rather do all the boring stuff (like vocabulary memorization) now, and do all the fun speaking practice when I get there.
And yeah, I know Foshan is Cantonese-speaking. It's a source of daily worry. I'm a bit fearful that I might be excluded from the social life because I speak a "foreign" language. I take some consolation in the fact that the young people, educated people and urban-dwellers have better statistics than the rest when it comes to Mandarin knowledge, and I'm most likely to be hanging out with young, educated urbanites.
I'm not going for language studies, though. I'm going for martial studies.
If all else fails, I'll just have to take up the challenge of learning Cantonese in a year! :)
RJ
December 28, 2009, 12:58 PMWell Simon, good luck. Im sure you will learn some cantonese whether you want to or not but you are right, the young educated types do speak mandarin. I noticed that mainly the waitresses in restaurants and clerks in stores tended to favor cantonese. But the expeience in China can be frustrating because you know you got it right (vocab wise), you nailed it, and you are so proud of yourself, but then you dont see the light of understanding in anyone's face. And then when it all gets straightened out you want to scream - thats what I said, but it isnt, at least not quite. Chinese ears are not very forgiving.
calkins
December 29, 2009, 12:20 AMSimon says:
How does moving to China for a year sound? That will certainly put them to the test. I expect to get a lot of speaking practice then, so I don't feel like I need to get any now.
I'm curious...why not? Sounds like you've really prepared yourself in all other areas (aside from reading and writing, which aren't essential to communicate). It sounds like you've hit a wall, so why not test out your speaking before you get to China (shadowing and pronounciation drills, while they're good, are nothing like the real thing)?
Like RJ said, once you're in China, using Chinese is a very humbling experience. It's almost like you have never studied before! And to be honest, a year in China is not enough time to become fluent. It will fly by, and unless you're able to constantly practice your Chinese, it won't see huge improvement. Hopefully you'll be in a Chinese-only speaking environment. Stay away from English as much as possible!
Maybe you have already done this, but what about making some online friends there now? You could use IM and Skype to get a feel for the local Foshan "dialect". Get a little practice in before heading off and make some friends.
Just a suggestion, since you've seemed to have tackled just about everything else...no matter what, I'm sure you'll pick it up quickly once you're in China.
simonpettersson
December 28, 2009, 07:55 AMuser11695:
Clarification: in Scandinavia we watch any foreign films with Swedish (or Norwegian, or Finnish, or Danish) subtitles, whereas in continental Europe they tend to be dubbed in the local language. Since most of the foreign stuff is in English (American shows are more common than Swedish ones over here), this is commonly quoted as the reason for the relatively high standard of English language proficiency in Scandinavia.
EDIT: Then again, we also give kids more English instruction and an earlier start than most of continental Europe does. Probably because the Scandinavian languages are pretty much useless outside of our national borders, whereas Spanish, French and German have a higher status. The Dutch are also famous for their English ability, and their language is similarly impractical internationally. I don't know wether they dub their movies or not.
henning
December 27, 2009, 09:41 PMHi Simon,
I am not an Advanced student and I still make horrible mistakes (e.g. on HSK mockup tests). But I can usually follow Google News in Chinese on my iPhone or - like you - get the gist of what is going on in a light TV show (it goes a lot better with kids material like Spongebob).
However, I still take most of my input from CPod lessons in combination with a small dose of HSK material. As I had to scale back my learning massively, CPod has proven a much more robust source of progress than any native material. It is more compact, discusses words and phrases more in-depth, and delivers a broader spectrum of vocab (especially news are often formulaic and after a while give a false impression of progress).
I got the Guided-promotion and this forces me to prepare at least 4 lessons a week. In this week's plan was the "Sun Salutation in Yoga". In the dialogue were 14 new pieces of vocab. More importantly it flooded me with new uses of old vocab in a different setting. At first hearing I felt totally lost. If this was a "real media setting" without supplementary learning aides I would definately have given up really soon.
What I still miss at CPod are more intensive discussions of formal and advanced grammar points in the Upper Levels. And it would be nice to have HSK style learning materials "on board".