How do we know TCM works?

Another interesting study for the record.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15165421

My interest was in trying to ask TCM practitioners to be the advocates for their craft. I was trying to go to the source for information, rather than going with my own biases. The amusing thing was the TCM practitioners didn't even seem to understand my questions. I think the significance of the CNN article is that it gives me the ability to ask TCM practitioners questions that they might understand and give me a response that I understand.

At the end of the day, I didn't see much from either Kurtis' blog, or the examine.com post that Epimedium, for example, is made up of one compound, or dozens. If Epimedium is one compound, how much is required for effective treatment? If it's multiple compounds, what use are the other compounds? which of those compounds within Epimedium are the most effective for which illnesses? has this been tested? when you have more than 2 compounds in some herb, you don't know which compound is the "medicine" if you will. and you don't know what amounts of the compound are "just right" versus "fatal", or what the compound is actually doing to what part of the body. Kurtis' blog said TCM wasn't shit without a detailed discussion around specific compounds in specific TCMs so I didn't find it very helpful.

examine.com have recently updated with more TCM compounds.

http://examine.com/supplements/Traditional+Chinese+Medicine/

Also see, Kurtis's (from examine.com) own blog (title says it all).

http://bit.ly/NR7yf3

The main tcm compound I use regularly is cordyceps 冬虫夏草 (winter-slug-summer-fungis, or something like that).

robertlowryjr, thanks again. Maybe i'm thinking that my requests are badly worded. I think the reason I wanted to to know about peer-reviewed research is ultimately how effective AOM/TCM is over doing nothing. I buy it that TCM practitioners drive the research as much as anything, but I do find it a bit odd that you say that you're too busy treating/curing patients to read the research. I can certainly believe that TCM is effective for some treatments. For example, a "bad" back can be bad for plenty of reasons, so an AOM treatment may be effective for some of them.

Maybe another topic you might touch on is how do you know your treatments are safe?

Hi Pretz...

The reason I started talking labels/nouns etc was not to cloud the issue, :) I did it because when you asked if yin and yang are verifiable in peer reviewed journals I just had to interject how futile it would be to "prove" that yin or yang exist, and i was just hoping to point out what TCM actually is: a conceptual system. Trying to prove if yang exists has as much day to day worth as proving if the sun does. Not trying to be smart at all, I deeply want you to GET what I am saying.

As far as cancer goes, there are hundreds (probably 1000's) of herbs out there with anti-tumor, anti-malignancy properties, according to Western medical laboratory studies. I just googled this poorly worded string of words and got tons of hits: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=herbs+anti+tumor&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

I'm sure you could use other word strings and get more. Of course if someone is riddled FULL of cancer they should have surgery, chemo, radiation, etc, not saying that herbs will CURE ALL CANCER. That would be a ridiculous statement to say the least. The question is HOW and WHEN to use these herbs? As prevention? As early stage intervention? As post op, post chemo treatment to keep it in remission? I don;t have those answers.

BTW many (40 or 70%...something like that) of the anti-cancer drugs used in allopathic medicine are (or will be?) developed from rainforest plants, or so I saw on the Discovery Channel several years ago.

As far as journals influencing us practitioners on what what we do, we are ahead of the curve just DOING the medicine on real people with real issues, and they (the allopathic researchers) are behind us trying to figure out WHY it all works. I am far too busy fixing peoples bad backs, and curing menopausal hot flashes and alleviating insomnia and helping peoples digestion and helping people having more energy (etc,etc) to read up on what is going on in the journals. Sure its cool to hear all about their findings, but we are driving THEM more than they are driving US. Most often they are trying to use reductionistic science to explain holistic phenomenon, so they will always fall a little short of being able to corner exactly what it is that we do. Anyway...this is as fun blog...I hope i remember to come back here.

Sorry about the wordiness on my posts. :p

Thanks for posting. It's clear you care about this topic.

At the end of the day, I'll say up front I didn't get my question answered. You started talking about labels, verbs and adjectives, but I wanted to know if TCM/AOM/whatever you want to label it, can eliminate the fatality-inducing problem, if only temporarily. You can call the fatality inducing problem cancer, or a tumor, or a malignancy.

Based on my casual research on the web, and the replies to my TCM questions you and Kelingsheng have provided, the answer is no. TCM/AOM can treat symptoms only. Further, you didn't cite peer-reviewed research stating that the entire body of medicine around what is commonly called TCM is any more effective than doing nothing. I thought it was interesting that you didn't cite anything from these journals/organizations

http://www.ability.org.uk/acupuncture_chinese_medicine_pub.html

I am starting to suspect that these journals have no influence on what TCM practitioners in the field actually do. By the way, you sound authoritative on the subject; are you a TCM practitioner?

This is why the west doesn’t understand Yin and Yang and Qi (pronounced CHEE, and often spelled Chi) ---yin and yang are a LABEL for things that are right under our nose. Trying to prove a label exists is just like trying to prove the sun exists: trying to do it is merely an abstract, intellectual exercise and isnt at all helpful in our day to day, common sense world. Yin (or yang) isn't a NOUN, it is a LABEL for an adjective describing the nature of a verb or a noun. for example: Our back is considered more yang, and our front more yin. The back has yin also: the lower is more yin, the upper is more yang. This is an example of yang as an adjective of a NOUN.

Trying to prove that yin and yang do or do not exist would be like trying to prove that the upper or LOWER backs don't exist.

Here is an example of Yin as an adjective of a verb: - when we get chills, we are more yin. When we get a fever we are now more yang. Yin and yang are NOT fixed, they are always changing. In good health all the bodily functions are occilating closer to the CENTER of normal functioning, they change very little but the are always moving at least slightly. (maybe I am misusing the word adjective - is it an adverb when saying a function is more YANG? anyway I hope all is well and that I made any sense whatsoever.

To answer your other question: Western medicine works with yin and yang too, but to different means. For example: If you have a very bad fever, you take an antipyretic (fever reducer). The fever meant your body temp was too HIGH too HOT, the antipyretic is more yin than yang in nature as evidenced by its COOLING and CALMING nature. In AOM one aspect of an herb is its temperature: some are very cold, cold, cool, neutral, warm, hot, very hot. there are other aspects of herbs I won’t get into.

You could actually fit drug therapy into the framework of AOM just fine and it wouldnt skip a beat. You would have to categorize each drug by herbal classifications: temperature, area of action, mode of action, "flavor", etc. Oh BTW most herbs TASTE bitter, but their FLAVOR may be sweet, salty, bitter, acrid, etc. Flavor is the FUNCTION not always the taste of it.

As far as "deeply serious medical cases" go, of course AOM will help, but the more acute and serious it is, the more we NEED to have allopathy. In China, meds, herbs and Acu are done together in most hospitals from what my Chinese Professors (Doctors of TCM) tell me. It is very integrated. the only prob with meds and herbs are potential interactions, have to make sure to look up before prescribing.

As far as cancer goes, Cancer is not just the noun: the "part: the TUMOR, it is also the verb: the "function" the process for creating cancer. The 'CURE " to cancer lies not in cutting out the noun, it is alleviating the verbs that are creating the noun. Of course genetics, lack of exercise, bad food, exposure to pollutants in the air and water and EM radiation etc can create such a massively strong set of verbs (functions, processes) that no amount of TCM can stop it. No one is saying AOM is the cure all. What I AM saying is that they recognized what it is years ago: a qi and blood stagnation, wih phlegm stasis, blood heat and fire toxin ---and they have herbs and acu point so alleviate those patterns of disharmony. All those things above are basically verbs...it is NOT that he blood is hotter than 98.6, it just acts hot (moves quick, bleeds out easier etc) these are all very useful labels FUNCTIONS not literal.

So why do they do all this labeling? Well it is in the nature of the language and in the ancient philosophy to use a natural poetry to describe our health as inner and outer weather or other natural phenomenon. latin and Greek work great for describing PARTS for anatomically based Allopathic (western) medicine, but would fail at describing these patterns of disharmony, these over-arching whole body phenomena. As soon as we try to take AOM terminology literally, we leave its sphere of actions.

SO MANY people get this wrong, in fact most acupuncturists do. Qi is not capable of being bottled or seen under a microscope...it is a VERB. Yin and Yang can't either as they are labels, they are ADJECTIVES (describing areas in space) or they are labels or they are ADVERBS (describing functions and processes). Did I use my english terms right? Last I checked we can't see a label or a concept, we can only see the manifestation of them.

AOM watches for certain manifestations in the body (signs and symptoms) then prescribes time tested techniques to ALTER the underlying functional imbalance.

Do my rambling posts make sense? I hope so, I am not on here to BS people or try to look smart, I am working on ideas and sharing what I know so far.

Another thing I'd like to add is that it doesn't appear that there is any peer-reviewed research that suggests ying and yang actually exist. Or if they do exist, that they can be influenced the way that TCM practitioners use. I think that's the essence of my question around experience vs. trials. If there is, please let me know.

Different places have different laws. Here in BC Canada, there's no such thing as being board certified. Either you're a registrant of a health profession college or not. In BC, the CTCMA regulates the practice of Chinese medicine and they set forth minimum core competencies. Here are the requirements for BC if you're interested: http://www.ctcma.bc.ca/applicants.asp

In the US, most states require at least certification through the NCCAOM ( http://www.nccaom.org/ )

Sorry the spelling errors, one of many was the quote at the end...it should say Doctors provide the "CURE" but it is nature that heals. I also meant to say that western Medicine usually just suppresses "SYMPTOMS" from the outside. Of course it can keep you alive in an emergency, which is where it works its magic.

First off , it is yin and yang (pronounced like yAHHng like pong not yAYYng like dang).

Secondly, disorders manifest differently in virtually everyone so the tongue or pulse or other signs may or may NOT be effected by a disease (your diorder had no effect on your tongue obviously) This is why we use ALL the signs and symptoms to diagnose and treat. You go with what they all point to, sometimes symptoms contradict each other and it is up to experience to ba able to tell which are the KEY to go forward with.

Third, you shouldnt have to pay that much for acupuncture. In a Community Acupuncture setting we charge $15-$35 sliding scale per treatment.

Fourth, you need to understand what yin and yang is. It isn't something to believe in or something or only something special people can see. Night-time is more yin in nature, daytime more yang. Yin and yang are adjectives of verbs and nouns (sorry, I think my english is correct) they are LABELS of what is right in front of your face, they are NOT a noun. Just like Qi (chee) it is not something you can bottle, it is a verb, a function. Now you can see the manifestations of Qi and yin and yang, but not an actual substance.

For a concrete example: Lets say you are otherwise healthy and hurt your back. Well you have what we call an EXCESS condition, in other words you have too much functioning in one area...that is why yoiu have pain. Allopathics say you have trauma and inflammation, we say you have trauma and Qi and Blood stagnation. BTW in AOM, blood is not just the red stuff we know it to be, it is a label for the nourishing, moistening functions in the body. How does the back pain relate to Yin and Yang? Well an excess condition is more yang than yin in this case.

Yang is more: active, warming, transforming, less substantial, etc mor elike PHYSIOLOGY

Yin is more: calming, cooling, nourishing,more substantial etc often more like ANATOMY

So to treat the back pain we look at the back (in this case) as having a traffic jam of information and functioning and fluids and heat etc, and we have to nourish and calm it. In an accident the back becomes very yang: hot, overactive, painful etc. During the course of treatments, the back will lose the inflamation, hurt less etc...and become more BALANCED. Does this make sense?

Oh and another thing, AOM works from the inside out by stimulating natural functioning. Allopathic (western) medicine suppresses from the outside in and doesn't stimulate the natural healing. The old saying in mainstream medicine is that the doctor provides the care but it is NATURE that heals. AOM stimulates NATURE. It provides a nourishing environment to HEAL

What were you getting treated for?

I've heard the same thing from people taking anti-depressants costing over $80 a week for the last 5 years.

In any profession there are people who are good at what they do and people who are not so good. Hopefully, you get someone who is good.

I think the concept of yin and yang warrants another thread.

I'm happy to hear your example.

"They're not testing TCM concepts and I have no idea why. It's like people researching TCM have never understood logic or reasoning."

I thought that documenting analysis and results of testing TCM concepts was exactly the purpose of the open access Chinese Medicine. To my inexperienced eye, it looks like they're at least trying to tackle this problem.

http://www.cmjournal.org/home

So does allopathic medicine completely disregard inductive reasoning because inductive reasoning doesn't actually prove anything, but only shows that it is highly probable? Would they assume that the sun won't rise tomorrow because there's no evidence that it will?

I think it is possible to have valid scientific studies done in in TCM and I would love to see it. I don't know why it's not happening. One of the main problems is that current research uses an allopathic model of medicine. They're explaining things in terms of allopathic physiology and allopathic concepts. They're not testing TCM concepts and I have no idea why. It's like people researching TCM have never understood logic or reasoning. If one wants to research something, one should at least use the proper terminology. I'm also of the opinion that having a placebo for acupuncture is as possible as having a placebo for the removal of an appendix. Do they have sham scalpels?

Anyway, here's a hypothesis that could be easily tested with a placebo: The TCM formula Xiao Yao San works for Liver Qi stagnation with Blood deficiency.

To test it one would have to take a group of people all diagnosed with Liver Qi stagnation with Blood deficiency and compare Xiao Yao San to a placebo group. Does it work or not?

Maybe the control group for the Xiao Yao San could be the control group for and acupuncture study?

(Here's a definition of Liver Qi Stagnation: http://sacredlotus.com/diagnosis/patterns/patterns_liv_gb.cfm#liver_qi_stag

And a definition of Blood deficiency: http://sacredlotus.com/diagnosis/patterns_qi_blood_fluids.cfm#blood_xu )

Hahaha. Don't remind me. I do work in the Health Service, but I'm no expert. (on anything).

just call me gullible. I thought you sounded authoritarian on TCM for a manager about to spend his way into bankruptcy on a wedding, presents and multiple 2012 Olympic events for his future family :-)

I just read wikipedia and pretend I know everything that lies behind it ;-)

Another casual search for something along the peer-reviewed TCM research found the following:

http://www.dovepress.com/treatment-for-intractable-anemia-with-the-traditional-chinese-medicine-peer-reviewed-article-IJGM

http://www.cmjournal.org/content/1/1/1

I will say that being a complete layman, I'm unclear on what the real implications of these tests are. I noticed that some of the research talked not in statistically significant sample sizes, but that's something I deal with professionally anyway. I'm also willing to believe that if I actually read the new england journal of medicine, i'd find western medicine to be uncompelling also.

I noticed that one of the journals is discussing "evidence-based" and "evidence-led" medicine. not sure what to make of that either.

It's difficult to apply evidence based medicine to TCM, because TCM relies on combinations of treatments, specifically tailored to individual patients. Evidence based medicine relies on testing individual ingredients one at a time, across a large number of subjects.

This complication makes TCM difficult to evaluate, but also provides it a smokescreen behind which it can hide with the necessity of true proof.

Thanks for that. That's what I thought.

I casually did my own searches around peer-reviewed research for TCM, and it turns out that there are peer-reviewed journals for TCM, and some TCM medicines seem to undergo clinical trials. But there wasn't a lot of it, and I wasn't clear how TCM practitioners actually go back to these peer-reviewed TCM journals to make informed judgements on how to advise patients real-time. I remember my doctor mentioning studies in the New England Journal of Medicine, or some other journal, and I assumed that TCM practitioners would do the same thing.

That's the one. Peer-reviewed evidence-based practice:

Evidence-based medicine (EBM) or evidence-based practice (EBP) aims to apply the best available evidence gained from the scientific method to clinical decision making.[1] It seeks to assess the strength of evidence of the risks and benefits of treatments (including lack of treatment) and diagnostic tests.[2] Evidence quality can range from meta-analyses and systematic reviews of double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trials at the top end, down to conventional wisdom at the bottom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence-based_medicine

is "evidence-based medicine" have the same implications around clinical trials that it sounds like it has, or is it something else?

"evidence-based medicine" is used very frequently here in the health service in England. It's the basis for the vast majority of modern english medicine...

Personally, I've never heard the term, "evidence-based medicine", but I would love to hear more about what that is or why you prefer this term over allopathic medicine.

Definitely add your own thread to this group. The more we have open and respectful discussions the more we can learn.

I've also tended to use "allopathic medicine" as a preferred term over "evidence-based medicine" because "evidence based medicine" is largely researched through biased mediums. Also, I don't know exactly why allopathic medicine completely disregards inductive reasoning.

If you have any ideas why. I'd love to hear them.

please explain why.

I hope you don't take this personal, it is directed in general at the types of statements I here all the time. I'm sorry but when people call TCM or AOM an "alternative medicine" it is a little condescending. More people, over more years have been succesfully treated with this form of medicine than Allopathy, and its not even close. Saying that Acupuncture and oriental medicine (AOM) is NOT an evidence based medicine is an outright falsehood too.

First off, there are complete libraries FULL of nothing but the results of clinical trials for AOM (some trials show positive some negative of course) Secondly, the World Health Organization and the National Institute of Health in the US have ALLOPATHIC MEDICAL EVIDENCE for many dozens of disorders showing the effectiveness of AOM. One of the greatest Hospitals is the World, the Mayo Clinic is VERY conservative and has always looked down on non-allopathiic medicines, yet they employ Acupuncturists. In fact I have worked on a Cardiographer from Mayo School of Medicine for his shoulder. Because MAYO, like all the big hospitals here in MN know it WORKS. Abbott NW has like 7 Acupuncturists on board. Alot work with cancer patients to halt the nausea, depression, pain, and general discomfort of cancer and Chemo.

I get referrals from MDs all the time, just because they don't know how it works doesnt mean they wont prescribe it. Look at drug therapy: sure we may be able to catalogue all the lab values that change but for most drugs we only speculate WHY it helps suppress symptoms. In other words they know THAT it works from experience, but not HOW it works.

AOM stimulates natural healing, it brings the physiology back to operate in a more neutral range when it works and it works very OFTEN for MANY things. It brings us closer to homeostasis. I see Allopathy and AOM work hand in hand all the time, it sucks when people draw an artificial line between having to do one or the other, they each have their areas of strength: In general, AOM works better on physiological (functional) problems and chronic illnesses and bulding us up from the inside, while allopathy works better on suppressing symptoms, on anatomical (part-related stuff, surgery especially is anatomically based), and also on more ACUTE, EMERGENCY issues. Got in a car crash? go to the emergency room, get morphine, set your bones, get surgery etc....but when the EMERGENCY is over, AOM is light YEARS ahead of allopathy for actually HEALING the body. I hope this starts to help the obvios gross misunderstandings out there, peace my friends...

Welcome back Simon! I know you were asked about your whereabouts and status on your "yes i'm in China now" thread. You should check that out if you haven't already done so.

I welcome your question. After looking around on the web, I found more going on than I thought regarding the research behind some Chinese Medicine practices. More peer reviewed studies and the like. I guess I am seeing that while the peer reviewed studies are ok, those particular studies didn't seem to have a connection to the actual treatment of patients. I didn't come across a Chinese Medicine treatment peer-reviewed study that looked at patient outcomes, but maybe it was because I didn't look around enough.

Sorry, I have been away from Chinesepod for quite some time now. Coming back, I see left out a few unanswered questions.

The reason I don't use the word TCM is because TCM refers to Traditional Chinese Medicine that is taught and practiced by the majority in modern day Communist China. I do not consider myself to practice "TCM" as I am not interested in this "Communist-style Acupuncture" which has, basically, moved the medicine closer to a Western style of medicine. The physical aspects are emphasized more while the mental and spiritual aspects are not. And, from personal experience, I have clearly seen that mental aspects are just as important, if not more so, in many illnesses than the physical aspects. In other words, the emotional problems that people are having are a major cause of the problems they are having. Of course, this is highly generalizing and the every illness is different. But, emotional issues are a big cause of illness which is one reason why Western medicine lacks treatment for more "simple" illnesses. Anyways, that is my short answer to why I use the term Chinese Medicine - I feel it includes the broader sense of the medicine.

And this is not to say that TCM is ineffective or not useful. It's just that I try to study the aspects of Chinese Medicine that predate TCM. It seems that most people call this Classical Chinese Medicine.

In terms of allergies. I wouldn't say Chinese Medicine can "eliminate" allergies. I don't like to use the term eliminate or cure in any case as the body can never be completely returned to a state with no problem what-so-ever. However, allergies can be treated in a way that the allergic reactions can be greatly reduced. Obviously, results vary with person and with the ability of the doctor. Still, from what I've seen, heard, and read research on, allergies are one type of "disease" that Chinese Medicine is quite effective at treating.

(I'm using "TCM" because I'm not of Chinese decent and it's the most widely accepted term for ancient/classical Chinese medial theory)

According the the WHO, acupuncture can treat allergic rhinitis ( http://apps.who.int/medicinedocs/en/d/Js4926e/5.html ) However, they're still using an allopathic model of medicine and completely negating the Chinese medical model. In TCM there is no "allergic rhinitis". Instead, TCM calls the signs and symptoms of allergic rhinitis a dysfunction of Wei Qi (this roughly translates into a dysfunction of our immune system).

Also, TCM had another a word for tumor (I forget what it is now, I need to study the Chinese language better) long before the west had any notion of what it was. That word I think included things like goitre.

so Dedsall78, I didn't notice that you weren't using the term "Traditional Chinese Medicine". I'm glad that you pointed that out, although in the end, it confuses what I think I am referring to as Traditional Chinese Medicine.

I'm also glad to hear that you're a practitioner of Chinese Medicine. Good to know i'm hearing from an authoritative source.

I also was thinking that it seemed interesting that earlier, you said that for things like allergies, Chinese Medicine was better than western medicine. I'm not clear why you would say that, when western medicine merely alerts allergy sufferers to the cause of the allergy, but may or may not eliminate the allergy. Can Chinese Medicine eliminate allergies?

Ah, and I just realized something else I may not be explaining clearly.

When I say that Chinese Medicine doesn't have advanced tests, my meaning is it was not developed in Chinese Medicine. X-Rays, Blood tests, etc. were all developed by Western Medicine. Now that doesn't mean that a Chinese Doctor won't use those Western Medical tests. These sorts of tests can also be very useful to a Chinese Doctor in determining the best method of treatment.

Well, first off, let me clarify a bit on the whole cancer issue. The day after posting that, I realized that my explanation wasn't so good :)

When I mean by no tests is, there are no advanced tests to determine if a cancer is benign or malignant. That is not to say that Chinese Doctors do not have a way of diagnosing cancer. I was just reading this morning about how cancer is diagnosed in Chinese Medicine and how to treat it (but please don't ask me if it works as I am not sure; I have heard claims that it both does and others that it does not). It is also possible that there are doctors out there who can determine if a cancer is benign or malignant. However, I have never met one nor do I know how one diagnose if a cancer is benign or malignant without going through advanced western tests. It's possible that this knowledge was around prior to the Cultural Revolution but, now, has been largely lost; I am not sure.

As for why Western Medicine stopped using tongue diagnosis and pulse analysis, it's because it was stopped being taught. Why they stopped teaching it is, in my opinion, due to the fact that they developed advanced testing. Advanced testing is, as with most things, both good and bad. Over-reliance on the tests has been the outcome.

Chinese Medicine does diagnose all of these diseases you mentioned and, without having a knowledge of Chinese Medicine, I wouldn't really be able to explain to you how they are diagnosed.

And, actually, as Chinese Medicine was the only form of medicine here in China before Western Medicine was introduced, it has always diagnosed all types of diseases. It has also gone through many changes throughout the years and is always changing as new theories and information comes out.

To give you an idea, you may notice that I never say TCM, do I? That's because TCM is, basically, Communist Chinese Medicine. It is a modernization of Chinese Medicine that has taken out a lot of the traditional aspects in order to make it "modern." There are many other schools of thoughts that have differing viewpoints on how to treat diseases.

Finally, I should add that, although I am a licensed practitioner and did practice in the clinic previously, I have not been doing much since moving to Asia after I graduated. So, my clinical experience is rather limited. I figured I'd point that out so that you realize why I can't say exactly what I would do if faced with a patient with Alzheimer's or another disease I haven't worked with (although, as with many, many diseases, Alzheimer's is one of those you want to avoid by being healthy long before it shows up). I can only say how I would treat things that I have treated previously or that I have read about.

Thanks for the reply. The pitch black that surrounded TCM for me is lightening up. Its interesting that there were things like Tongue diagnosis. Not sure how to refer to this analysis through the pulse that you mentioned, but that's interesting as well. I would be interested to hear your take on why the fell out of favor in western medicine; was tongue diagnosis inaccurate in some cases? Were you missing key problems with pulse analysis?

I must admit, I'm a bit amazed that you would say that Chinese medicine (being an old medicine), doesn't have tests for things like cancer. To me, that sounds much like TCM advances the TCM art in a relatively narrow set of illnesses and treatments. May I ask what TCM thinks of mental illnesses like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder as well? Not that western medicine, despite decades of treatments, is anywhere near good at treating these things. In that vein, what does TCM practitioners do with Down's syndrome, Alzheimer's Disease and other ailments that have been around for awhile?

I guess though that the benefit of having TCM teaching hospitals teach western medicine is that the students can make their own determination when the things you mentioned like allergies, sleep issues or excess stomach acid are symptoms of something more serious.

Ah, ok. I see a bit of what you are getting at.

Well, first off, I will note that you are basically taking Western Medicine and assuming that, in Chinese Medicine, they have something similar. You must keep in mind that Chinese Medicine is an old medicine that has existed far before we had X-Rays or even knew exactly what cancer was. So, there are no tests for cancer in Chinese Medicine. Nor any reason to have them; they already exist in Western Medicine. They may have existed in the past but I did not learn them myself.

This is the reason why all schools also teach Western Medicine. That way, we know when someone needs to go see an MD to get a further diagnosis or to get some more detailed tests. If someone is showing up with signs of just having a stroke, they need to go to the emergency room. A former classmate of mine had this happen to him since, as you may or may not know, people can have strokes without realizing they have had one.

Now, as for problems with no external symptons, Chinese Medicine is quite good at that. This is especially true for a skilled practitioner. A few months ago, I went to a Chinese Doctor to help me with my stomach issues. Simply by taking my pulse, he told me that my stomach acid was too high (he was an MD as well, so tended to think in Western terms at times) and that I had sleep problems, both of which were true. This was before I even told him anything. I have heard of doctors, that my former teachers had met, who could even tell you your entire health history simply by your pulse.

Interestingly enough, before we developed, and came to over-rely on, all of this high-tech equipment, MDs were also skilled in pulse taking and tongue diagnosis. I saw an old book, I think from the late 1800s or early 1900s, on tongue diagnosis at an old bookstore not too long ago. But I doubt, these days, that many MDs would know tongue diagnosis as it's been forgotten and not taught anymore.

Anyways, I hope this sheds a little more light on things. Western and Eastern Medicine should be complementary as they each have strengths and weaknesses. For dealing with more common problems, such as allergies or sleep issues, Chinese Medicine is much better. However, for the much more serious ones, such as where a surgery is required, Western Medicine is.

I was pretty unclear about what I meant with cases. I was trying for something more like examples where some patient, or test group of patients were ill with some disease that wouldn't have shown itself under TCM, but would have shown up under Western medicine. As an example, sometime ago, I dislocated my knee skiing. A doctor X-rayed my knee to see if there was any ligament or bone damage, and then told me that he discovered I had this major league bone growth on my lower leg, just under the knee joint. I didn't know the bone growth was there. He casually mentioned that this bone growth was nothing, but it if had been cancerous, I would have been admitted into the hospital right then.

I wonder if TCM treatments can illuminate problems that do not otherwise have any external symptoms? An X-ray exists in western medicine, is there such a tool in TCM? If a TCM doctor sees a patient that has a lump on his arm, what tools does a TCM doctor use to determine if the lump is a benign or malignant cancer? At what point does the TCM doctor say, "you need to see a western medicine doctor"? Or does a TCM doctor ever say that for fear of losing face?

I am not sure if there are peer-reviewed journals for either Eastern / Chinese or Osteopathic Medicine. But, as Osteopathic Medicine is Western Medicine (just not the mainstream one), I would assume there is.

I have seen many journals for Eastern / Chinese Medicine with case studies in them. However, I am not sure if they are peer-reviewed or not.

I am not sure exactly what you mean by "more inclusive of effective treatment cases" but I am guessing you mean more inclusive of case studies? In that case, I would say that, yes, there are definitely more case studies in Western Medicine than in Chinese Medicine. The idea of doing case studies to prove the effectiveness of techniques / medicinals was formulated in the West. It has only been recently that they started performing them in China.

In terms of the mainstream Western Medicine compared to Osteopathic Medicine, I would not know. :)

However, since we are on the topic of case studies, I will add that, although I am glad to see more case studies done with Chinese Medicine, case studies are not without flaws. Case studies are designed to isolate factors so that one can see how a certain factor, A, affects a certain result, B. This is beneficial but works better with the mechanical outlook of Western Medicine rather than a holistic outlook, like Chinese Medicine.

When one is dealing with a Chinese Medicine, one is not as concerned with isolating a certain factor and seeing how that factor affects the results. After all, the body is far too complicated and far too connected to be able to isolate a certain factor(s) and say they are the one and only cause of a certain disease.

Case studies are beneficial and have there place in the medical community. But they should never be the sole thing that is looked at.

Hey dedsall, is there a peer-reviewed journal for Chinese medicine? and actually, is there a peer-reviewed journal for Osteopathic medicine? I hear you about Chinese (and Osteopathic Medicine) being a form of medicine. I guess now I'm starting to feel that "western" medicine is more inclusive of effective treatment cases than either Chinese or Osteopathic medicine. One example is a cancer treatment.