Generosity or Pride (a story in the historical present)

bodawei
April 21, 2010, 01:58 PM posted in General Discussion

Today I am buying carrots when I observe an extraordinary act.  I have raised this before on ChinesePod (not buying carrots) but I have so far not documented this phenomenon.  Here is the first of my logs on extraordinary acts of generosity, or something. J

Case 1 

I am passing by the market on the way home, picking up a few things for the pumpkin soup.  I want three carrots and stop by a farmer's make-shift stall on the edge of the main market.  (The full-timers are inside, still asleep at 2 pm.  The farmers on the other hand have covered their goods for sale and disappeared to eat noodles and play cards.  They probably won't reappear until 3.)  But I see a vendor is here, playing with his toddler. 

Eh, 老板,胡萝卜多少钱? (I always start with an Australianism but it is lost on those I speak to.  They possibly think I say 喂, 喂你好的喂, or think I have a weird way of speaking, or most likely don't care either way.)

三块一斤。 

[I pick up three good size carrots and he weighs them.] 

一半斤,一块五。 

The deal done, transaction finished apart from putting the carrots in a bag he picks up a fourth carrot the same size as the others and drops it in the bag. 

Now why does he do that?  Weird.  I should emphasise I have never seen this man before - he is not a mate, I am not a regular customer.  He is not otherwise friendly, there is no other conversation.  Just puts another carrot in the bag, lifting his costs by 33 1/3 %.  That's right, he has just given away his profit margin.  Or has he?  In the West supermarkets operate on about an 8% retail margin - I don't really have a feel for it here in China, but it is a very competitive market so I cannot imagine anything above 10% or 15% would be sustainable. 

If this was an isolated event I would think nothing of it.  The man is crazy, or has some obscure ulterior motive I am not interested in.  But this happens ALL THE TIME.  Okay, I won't bombard you with cases, but one I remember was quite amusing.  The new oranges were out, extremely tasty and way expensive but I couldn't help myself.  Again I was on the edge of the market; a farming couple are loudly proclaiming their wares and the price is way above the odds.  I am interested but I offer half, and there follows a lot of hefty bargaining with the 老婆 in particular yelling the prices in my ear.  Eventually we meet in the middle (my wife has long since gone - she hates such scenes); we reluctantly agree.  Then, hot and flustered, grumbling all the time, the guy puts a couple of extra oranges in the bag! 

Is it generosity?  Pride?  (Are they saying ‘we are farmers but we are not so mean that we wouldn't throw in some extras'?)  Stupid?  What do poddies think?  

[I would like to thank all of the people who provided material for my stories.  Thanks to poddies for contributing in various ways.  Special indebtedness to Barbabardwan for pointing out that three carrots are not likely to weigh half a kilo, even large carrots.]  

 

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bababardwan
March 10, 2010, 07:26 AM

Is it not about face and also about trying to engender goodwill and your return custom?

Did you consider giving the fourth carrot back and bartering for 1/4 of the original price off? [btw,of course I'm kidding]

Also,you obviously know your stuff,but otherwise I would have said that I wouldn't have thought the margins were that tight.

Also,I think you meant to write 胡萝卜

btw mate,what's the Australianism you usually start with...I'm guessing g'day as it rhymes with wei

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bodawei

Is there any way to edit a post on the community board, do you know? (I notice a couple of mistakes - I should go slower.)

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bababardwan

bodawei,

Yeah mate.Sorry I've only just seen this now [been ducking in and out].On the community tab just click on posts and on the right of the post you want to edit there will be a little pencil icon...click on that and then edit away and republish.

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bodawei

Ah - thanks. There's nothing like being told more than once to make it stick. I would like a little wiki on the site somewhere that has all these instructions together. (Maybe it is there?)

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bodawei
March 10, 2010, 07:48 AM

Barbs: 'Eh'. (Rhymes with wei.)  

Thanks for picking me up on the 汉字.. I wouldn't have known that without looking it up in a dictionary.  

Yes, I think it is probably face.  If so, I wonder how they behave when serving another farmer, or someone who is below them in the pecking order (other than foreigners I mean.)  :-)  I will have to look out for that.

I would also go out on a limb and doubt that it is generosity in the sense we use the word, or that they are hoping for future custom.  I doubt that Chinese believe in the 'loss leader' strategy once found in 'how to succeed in business' books.    

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bababardwan

bodawei,

why do you doubt that they are hoping for future custom ? I mean I can see in the case of a laowai how this possibly could seem unlikely,but maybe it is a general habit to throw in a little extra..a nice touch.

Maybe you are right about the margins and he hasn't thought about it that closely.That is maybe on average most folk buy more than three at once and he's in the habit of always throwing in one extra [like a bakers dozen].

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bodawei

Hah, I like the baker's dozen idea. Wasn't that originally because of Government regulation? Or at least guild hall regulation (probably much the same thing?)

I feel I can't generalise about 'hoping for future custom'. It is often said that Chinese 'like their money up front'. This is possibly because of a general lack of trust about anyone outside your inner circle. Perhaps if you go to the same business for a very long time you become part of the inner circle. But, generally, watching Chinese people at a market is rather disconcerting. Most transactions are not overly friendly - it seems that an argument about something is commonplace. Then watching the different classes at work is challenging for an Australian - well-dressed people are often downright rude to the vendors.

Coming back to the subject of 'throwing in a little extra' .. I am not sure (that's why I posted this.) Hopefully some 中国通 or native speaker will help us out?

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xiaophil

Baba beat me to it. I was thinking that perhaps it is common practice in order to give the illusion of generosity. I haven't come across too many freebies in my neck of the woods in Shanghai. Maybe I don't send out the 'give me free stuff' vibes.

It seems to me my old Chinese professor (a Chinese man who teaches philosophy, not Chinese) told a story of a place where the locals always bartered. Nothing strange there, except... the sellers started low and the buyers started high. Each was so goodhearted that both wanted to give the other more than they what was expected. In the end, the price ended up the same as it would have been if they had bartered in the normal, selfish way. Anyone else hear this story?

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bodawei

The story rings a bell - but I can't remember where I heard it. It is a lovely myth - no-one does myth better than the Chinese.

The trouble with the 'illusion of generosity' theory is that it is no illusion - vendors regularly give away a lot of their produce, needlessly. Barb suggests that they have a little fat but the facts speak otherwise - the farming sector has been set upon for most of the past sixty years. They don't owe anyone any favours. The current Government is starting to remove some of the inequalities.

The deal has already been settled when they make the concession. I feel surprise and amusement; I don't feel grateful (cf. my story how this can happen after a heated argument about price.) But here's a thought - if this is long-standing practice, the economist in me tells me that it is built into the price. The price is arrived at in the reasonable expectation that the vendor will then throw in some extra. Only kidding :-)

Maybe it is a characteristic of the West - I can't imagine it in 'dog-eat-dog' Shanghai. :-)

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bababardwan

"it is built into the price"

...oh yeah,I more or less assumed that.

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bababardwan

Thanks xiaophil..nice story.I wonder where it comes from.I'd like to have a go at that ..sounds fun...but I wouldn't be too keen doing it for sheep stations.

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bodawei

This story reminded me of a line in the new Freakonomics book by the superstar economist Steven D.Levitt and his partner in crime Stephen J.Dubner talking about when they were 'asked' to write a book. 'We discussed how the money should be divided. Almost immediately we came to an impasse, for each of us insisted on a 60-40 split. Upon realizing that we each thought the other guy should get 60 percent, we knew we'd have a good partnership'.

I'm a sucker for this self-deprecating kind of humour but I can't help but wonder what really went on. And who came up with the joke, etc.

Dubner is now doing Freakonomics podcasts - the first one I listened to is about the obesity epidemic in the United States. Levitt takes Dubner to a truly amazing restaurant in Chicago, KFC I think it's called. Then they go to a place that sells 'ice-cream burgers'. Remember that American guy on these boards who complained loudly about the fat in Chinese food?

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bababardwan

'ice-cream burgers' ..ha ! Still I'd love to try at least one. Yeah, I remember. Of course you know the problem here is not far behind the US.

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bodawei
March 10, 2010, 07:51 AM

Is there any way to edit a post on the community board, do you know? (I notice a couple of mistakes - I should go slower.)

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bababardwan
March 10, 2010, 07:57 AM

bodawei,

why do you doubt that they are hoping for future custom ? I mean I can see in the case of a laowai how this possibly could seem unlikely,but maybe it is a general habit to throw in a little extra..a nice touch.

Maybe you are right about the margins and he hasn't thought about it that closely.That is maybe on average most folk buy more than three at once and he's in the habit of always throwing in one extra [like a bakers dozen].

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xiaophil
March 10, 2010, 08:42 AM

Baba beat me to it. I was thinking that perhaps it is common practice in order to give the illusion of generosity. I haven't come across too many freebies in my neck of the woods in Shanghai. Maybe I don't send out the 'give me free stuff' vibes.

It seems to me my old Chinese professor (a Chinese man who teaches philosophy, not Chinese) told a story of a place where the locals always bartered. Nothing strange there, except... the sellers started low and the buyers started high. Each was so goodhearted that both wanted to give the other more than they what was expected. In the end, the price ended up the same as it would have been if they had bartered in the normal, selfish way. Anyone else hear this story?

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kimiik
March 10, 2010, 11:40 AM

Hi Bodawei,

I don't know if it's relevant to the topic but, on a traditional french market, when you ask for 500g or 1kg of fruits or vegetables, the farmer often puts in a bag what he thinks is around 400g or 800g, checks the weight on the scales and add by guesswork the complement of fruits or vegetables afterwards without checking the scales again.

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bababardwan

great thought kimiik.The average weight of a carrot is 75g ,so even if they were good sized carrots at 100g,you've paid for 500g and got 400g,but you think you're a carrot ahead ,so it's a win win situation,everyone's laughing and happy as larry.

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bodawei

Hi kimiik

Wow - that is amazing. Reminds me of Korea where they don't weigh anything at all! (My experience is Seoul.) So many different behaviours come to be accepted by people - I am always fascinated by our flexibility.

But in China you can usually see the scales. I couldn't see the scales on this occasion (turned to one side) but ... oh, I see a problem. If Barbs is right and the average carrot is 75g I may have mis-represented my story above. It was probably priced per 斤 and I bought 一半斤 .. It's that or I have been scammed! :-) I'm going to have to edit my story above and risk my reputation as an amateur social anthropologist. [Note to self: take a book and write things down you want to broadcast to the world.] But the essence of the story remains.

I can see that I need a rider saying 'Based on a True Story'!

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bababardwan

呵呵,sorry mate,just joshing around,you know me. :) .Yeah,it's still a good story.No need to edit [but btw,you know how replies can get lost...I did later on find and reply to your question about editing above]

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bodawei

Yep, I saw, thanks a lot mate. I'm editing away like mad now, re-writing history. (I don't think that I'll ever forget that carrots are about 75g, and that they're spelled with a 萝 not a 罗.) It's interesting that we can go back and change something we wrote - I've got a problem with that. I think that there should be a record somewhere of the edits. Maybe approval should be sought. You can see how living in China has given me new respect for law and order. :-)

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bababardwan

hehe,

well i'd say 罗 is obviously going to be the phonetic and they've just thrown a grassy radical on top to make it look like the head of a radish.Interesting how these vegies morph because 萝卜 then becomes a turnip and adding a beard makes it a carrot.

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bodawei

I think that turnips have 'beards' too. Possibly not as impressive as carrots' beards?

Your character analysis is outstanding BTW, Mark? will be looking over his shoulder.

I always have a bit of trouble with luobu (carrot) and boluo (pineapple.) I have a panic attack when talking about either - I'm thinking: 'have I got it the right way round?' As an aside I think China needs to adopt Latin names for fruit and vegetables. There is little consistency from place to place. And multiple names; they can't even agree what an orange is - I think I counted about a dozen different words for orange. They are currently selling small 柚子 (pomellos) here, calling them 橙子 (oranges) - maybe because they are a similar size and shape.

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bababardwan
March 10, 2010, 11:49 AM

great thought kimiik.The average weight of a carrot is 75g ,so even if they were good sized carrots at 100g,you've paid for 500g and got 400g,but you think you're a carrot ahead ,so it's a win win situation,everyone's laughing and happy as larry.

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bodawei
March 10, 2010, 01:45 PM

Hi kimiik

Wow - that is amazing. Reminds me of Korea where they don't weigh anything at all! (My experience is Seoul.) So many different behaviours come to be accepted by people - I am always fascinated by our flexibility.

But in China you can usually see the scales. I couldn't see the scales on this occasion (turned to one side) but ... oh, I see a problem. If Barbs is right and the average carrot is 75g I may have mis-represented my story above. It was probably priced per 斤 and I bought 一半斤 .. It's that or I have been scammed! :-) I'm going to have to edit my story above and risk my reputation as an amateur social anthropologist. [Note to self: take a book and write things down you want to broadcast to the world.] But the essence of the story remains.

I can see that I need a rider saying 'Based on a True Story'!