Things I don't like about Chinesepod...

The classic discussion! I find the approach perfect for myself. It's progressive system is build-in. This morning I listened to some of the abondoned Advanced-lessons today and was really excited to dig out some vocab that I just learned in some of the more recent UI and Advanced lessons. The puzzle begins to reveal forms and figures. I love that. Much better than fake confidence build within artificial vocab and grammar enclosures that define arbitrary "prorgression levels". What I don't like about CPod? I still miss challenging exercises that train and finetune my inconsequential grammar and sentence building knowledge. The grammar guide is not yet completed. I need more QWs. I know I am greedy. :)

You know what I'd love and would be pretty cool. Have a random search for a lesson. Just choose a level, and grab one at random. Don't like the one chosen? Just search again.

How about starting with meaningful exercises that don't just repeat sentences from the expansion section. People who have a more or less photographic memory do not need to think at all. I really would like some more challenging excercises. Exercises that make me think and show if I have understood the grammar structure or use of a word. Is this asking too much. Having said this, I am a great fan of Cpod. Just because I have finally found a way to not just use Chinese (which I have to on a daily basis) but also think about it, about where to put words, idiomatic expressions, and I even take the time to learn and review new vocabulary. Great!

I agree that the exercices could be more challenging, repeating expansion sentences might still be ok if the faulty word order more closely reflected mistakes learners make. Next would be what Vera sometimes asks me to do, i.e. translating a whole sentence, or making one using a specific pattern / vocab. What the practice plan also forces me to do is work on clusters of lessons about certain themes and within certain difficulty levels irrespective of chronology. What I then do is try and find other lessons about those topics across levels (upwards and downwards), looking for related vocab. All of this takes me away from the daily sequence, sometimes frustrating as I don't have time to even cursorily review new stuff, but hey, it's not a TV series, it doesn't really matter. I don't know how more progressive you can make the system, and flexibily so considering you have people at all levels with all sorts of interests, learning styles and exposure to the language. dave, I don't know what level you're at but there'd be enough to keep me busy working on a single advanced lesson for a week, exploring lesson, banter and all, becoming proficient in all constructs, vocab, looking up related concepts in news etc. -- easily, sometimes upper intermediate would do too. Other than the excitement of discovering new discussions, there would be enough in there to keep me busy for a year or more if CPod should stop publishing. The only thing I still don't get is why is pinyin not displayed in a much less intrusive font size in the transcripts, but that's a rather minor point.

wildyaks and goulinky, I agree that the exercises need some work. We were actually talking about this issue just today (before Dave's post). It's going to happen. About the pinyin size... It can't be too small, because then the direction of the tone mark becomes very hard to make out.

I think John's point about not listening to every lesson at every level is on the mark. The fact that ChinesePod is not linear is what makes it unique (I guess for any language). We see a truly compelling reason for this approach: more choice/control for the user. I see it as a more natural way to learn. Ultimately, 'learning on your terms' is a true philosophy for us, not just a convenient slogan, so let me elaborate. I actually don't agree with John that linear programs are attractive. I hate them. Theyv'e been done for aeons that way, but only because it was the only option in the past. It's time to break the stranglehold this mentality has upon us all. When you follow a linear course you are following someone else's ideas, logic, rationale, learning style, etc. All of this came from the limitations of print. (You had to understand Lesson One before you could go to Lesson Two, etc.) But there is no natural order of language acquisition, so the logic is purely arbitrary, and oftern a 'one-size-fits-none' phenomenon. (When was the last time you successfully went through a textbook, item bny item?) Traditional textbooks reflect the bias of the teacher more than the needs of the learner. Institutional education has all the hallmarks of the 19th century factory - mass produiced isn;t exactly on your terms! Our approach is to offer tons of varied input that can be consumed in ways that suit the individual,when and where he wishes. Rather than the linear approach I think the metaphor of the network is more apporpriate - you follow your own questions (thanks for html, for example) where information a network of interconnected nodes - like the brain itself. However, underlying this approach lies the question of decisions: I beleive the successful learner MUST make the key decisions during his learning. He must be in control of hois own network of learning. An autonomous approach is crucial to your success. (Notice how schools utterly fail to develop that quality amongst studednts.) When you make the decisions about how and what you're going to study you are in charge. Your chances of success rise dramatically. Only you can align your true needs with your true preferences. I blogged a lot about the centrality of learner autonomy in the past - examples http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2007/05/26/learning-on-your-own-terms/ http://blog.praxislanguage.com/2007/05/08/power-to-the-people/ Maybe this is a subject we could return to!

Ken, interesting question: "When was the last time you successfully went through a textbook, item by item?" Ca. 2 - 3 times a year. Whenever I enter a new knowledge domain. But I would definately love to see some new Ken theory posts in the Blog. I kind of miss those never ending in-depth discussions :)

Whoa, whoa, I think both Ken and John are missing the whole point behind the linear/non linear compaints. I understand what you're saying about a non-linear approach, but the fact is that learners AREN'T in the real world, and DON'T KNOW where to start. I think you're overestimating the average learner's expertise in educating themselves. A new user needs someone to take them by the hand and show them what to do. This site is big and imposing, and I feel that new users need someone to TELL them what to do. People are intimidated when learning anything and the lack of ANY linearity is daunting. I listen to not only Chinesepod but also Spanishsense and some other 'linear' language podcasts. I have got Chinesepod/spanishsense 'on my own terms' it's a little lonely out there; each podcast seems to be in a vacuum and I'm slogging it away on my own. It's big, daunting and often you feel like you're on your own. I've heard this said about China itself, but I feel Chinesepod is like that sometimes too. Spanishsense also. I've been teaching English here in China, and I find the most valuable point I've learned from teaching is this: students need you holding their hand every step of the way. Ask someone to make you a sentence and they'll give you a blank look. Lead them, by giving them as many examples as you can, and they learn much better. I'll sum up with something that I really like about CPod: the dictionary. And I like it because it is linear. I can look up a word and see it in context from a lesson perhaps years back. That jogs my memory of that lesson and the context of that lesson. I forgot it when I first heard it, but looking it up again all these years later and I remember it immediately. I won't forget it again. People will always 'consume' lessons in a linear way, and see them that way. They are students, learning, so they will never be sure if they are doing it the right way. I'm not sure I've got my point across, (I'm not so good at cerebral discussions) but I really think some people need more guidance than they are getting.

Well, I started this thread with the idea of people posting different kinds of gripes but I think Maxie addressed my concerns more directly. He also elaborated on my feelings of which I wasn't able to put into words. However, I feel the argument has become a bit too polarized in terms of progressive vs free-range learning. I think both styles have their benefits and pitfalls so I think some kind of middle ground would be ideal---but haven't given much thought as to what this middle ground might look like. I brought up the other learning site (which i misspelled) chineselearnonline.com in order to contrast the two styles. Both Chinese learning sites offer something new and innovative which I think is great. I guess both have their drawbacks too. And now I've lost my train of thought and with all these comments and points I'm not sure where I was going with this so I'll post again later when I collect my ideas...

It seems to me that we need to define what an linear approach means. Ken and John are referring to the old teaching approach where one lesson had to be completely learned before a new subject could be taught but I don't think they're underestimating the need for the help and guidance of a teacher. I also use the dictionary in the way Maxiewawa does but I wouldn't consider it to be an linear approach. I like to find the keywords in frequently used phrases and see how they combine in other frequently used phrases and in that way I'm slowly building up my knowledge of the language and how it is used.

I think the big problem you're revealing is that some people view a new lesson every day as what they should be studying. If we released a new podcast from EVERY level EVERY day, would you still try to study it all? No, because you couldn't. You would be forced to use the levels that were best suited to you personally because you simply wouldn't have enough time to study it all. Well, we do have a ton of lessons in the archive, but a lot of people don't go through the archive, and that's a problem. A system that progresses linearly and builds on itself is very attractive in many ways, but it has a few problems: (1) It is, by its very nature, finite (or else just gets infinitely difficult). You can't build on your own lessons forever, and if you keep building, then you can't go back. (2) It doesn't mirror the real world at all. Now obviously, lessons can never totally mirror the real world; there will obviously always be elements to lessons that are artificial. But if a lesson pushes you because you don't know all (or even most) of the material, and are forced to make guesses and inferences about meaning, this is a good thing! That's real. That's the cognitive approach that Ken loves so much. I do agree, however, that we could better facilitate a student's progress through the mass of lessons we're created, and we're already working on just that problem.

Linear learning has been used in other language podcasts. It's used to build on previous lessons. I think this is something everyone does, whether or not it is supported by the teaching method. Often there are series based on grammar points, or certain storylines... the benefit of this kind of learning is that people get involved in the story, talk about it on message boards... when you listen, you get the idea that you're expanding upon something that was taught last week (or yesterday or whatever)... lessons are linked somehow. This contrasts with Chinesepod, where other lessons, message boards and conversation topics are rarely mentioned in podcasts. Maybe the effect isn't really quantifiable maybe it's just a feeling that listeners of linear sites get, but it adds to the sense of community... you're on a linear journey with the other listeners... you're (quite literally sometimes) following a story together through to its conclusion. A lesson might build on last lesson's storyline, expand on its grammar, thereby 'reminding' you of everything you learned in that last lesson. Linear learners don't hate Chinesepod though. I guess we just see it in a different way. I see each lesson as it related to the lesson before (be it the lesson of the day before, or the last lesson of the same level). I'm always excited when listening to that day's lesson, just because it's 'new'. I think that is CPod's greatest strength, the fact that it has a new lesson every day. I think this strength is rarely exploited. Often there are series based on grammar points, or certain storylines... the benefit of this kind of learning is that people get involved in the story, talk about it on message boards... when you listen, you get the idea that you're expanding upon something that was taught last week (or yesterday or whatever)... lessons are linked. This contrasts with Chinesepod, where other lessons, message boards and conversation topics are rarely mentioned in podcasts. Maybe the effect isn't really quantifiable maybe it's just a feeling that japanesepod listeners get, but it adds to the sense of community... you're on a linear journey with the other listeners... you're (quite literally sometimes) following a story together through to its conclusion. A lesson might build on last lesson's storyline, expand on its grammar, thereby 'reminding' you of everything you learned in that last lesson. Linear learners don't hate Chinesepod though. I guess we just see it in a different way. I see each lesson as it related to the lesson before (be it the lesson of the day before, or the last lesson of the same level). And it's always a little baffling when they are not related.

It's normal to be frustrated when learning Chinese. Compared to European languages, listening comprehension is a harder problem, due to so many short words with similar sounds, and the similarity of sounds is aggravated if you don't yet have a good ear for tones. There's also a lack of common Latin-based vocabulary, which in European languages hands you a large amount of vocabulary on a silver platter (eg, French "gouvernement"). I studied a couple of European languages before, and the frustration factor with Chinese for listening comprehension is far, far greater. Some websites do use a linear lesson structure where each one builds on the previous ones, for instance http://www.melnyks.com/ . But that has the drawbacks that John and Ken have already pointed out, and for many people it's just not the way they learn. You pick up bits and pieces of grammar and vocabulary from all over, from conversations or reading or life in general, and none of those things follow a linear course. ChinesePod is just part of the language buffet.

maxiewawa, I disagree. Linear learning doesn't work for me, and probably not for many other folks. You learn words when you're ready to learn them, not when someone decides it's time for you to learn them. You're exposed to vocabulary on an ongoing basis from many different contexts, whether ChinesePod lessons, or articles on Chinese webpages, or conversations. Some words "click" and you just know that you're going to remember them, while others are likely forgotten because your brain just isn't ready for them yet. The handholding approach in a classroom never really works. The world is full of people who studied a language in a classroom for X number of years and later forgot nearly everything. It's a dead end because when they leave school, they have no basis for any further learning. They don't know how because there's no one to hold their hand anymore and guide them in a linear progression. The only way to learn over the long term and retain what you've learned is to take a "self-serve language buffet" approach, scavenging vocabulary wherever you find it in a self-motivated ongoing way. Ultimately, we're all on our own when it comes to language learning. It's a long trip and no one can possibly hold your hand and guide you all the way to fluency. Going on a linear journey with other community members only works when everyone starts at the same point at the same time, as in a classroom semester. On a linear-learning website, one person will be on lesson 70 while another will be at lesson 40, because they found the site and joined at different times, so they won't have much to communicate with one another. On ChinesePod, it's much more likely that people will actually be following recent lessons at more or less the same time, so the community effect is actually stronger.

I might add, even if people joined a linear-learning website at the same time and both start at Lesson 1, they'd soon be out of sync anyway because one person will learn faster than the other. Or, one person prefers to repeatedly drill through the same lesson over and over again, while another moves on quickly to new material. The notion of a shared journey at the same pace through the same material can't really exist, except in a classroom semester setting where a teacher enforces everything.

Overall I would say I agree with Aeflow except when it comes to classroom learning. It is possible to learn to speak a language that way but as with every other kind of learning you have to keep using it after leaving school. Most skills will deteriorate if you don't use them.

Can I just say that for me, the nonlinear approach has been wonderful, and I've had no trouble searching out what I want to do, when I want to do it. The way ChinesePod is organized and articulated is 99 percent of the reason I'm here in the first place. Before I discovered the site in June, I didn't know I "needed" to learn Chinese. :-)

Other than the lack of Chinese characters one the home page and lesson pages, I can't think of any other complaints. Cpod, rocks!

When Ken said, "when is the last time you have finished a textbook." I glanced to the corner towards my pile of 15-20 Chinese langauge books along with about 15 books in Chinese. I can shamefully say that i have finished none of them and was looking for more books today at the Xinhua book store here in Guangzhou. I think that chinesepod provides a style that is complementary to many of these linear systems. You should never limit your self to one form of learning or one textbook. Language is flexible and you need to be that way too. I might have a less refined vocabulary compared to others but I really am able to use it well. I can adapt it and transform it to suit situations and new words or phrases on the spot. Many student who only learned in the linear fashion, like in my university classes, function fine in the way that they are taught but when they face a new situation they freeze up and can't adapt.

liner/non-linear - this is very much about learning style. Of course many of us have been conditioned to a linear learning style. Most school curriculums are linear. And that is a good approach as far as it goes. The thing is, out there are lots of good, linear text books. I would think the people who study with Cpod are, for reasons of their own, looking for a more free-style learning style. Mandarin on your own terms. It suits many, and it will always have weaknesses. I appreciate the effort the Cpod team is putting into improving things. The grammar guide is great, the dictionary, the QW lessons... There is much for everybody. Linear learners could easily use a more conventional text book and supplement with Cpod lessons.