A Chinese Hero's Stiff Upper Lip

那里，那里！Actually the sentences are a little clumsy here and there, I feel.

Whoah, and now you're... him! Nice reincarnation old sport, in your manyness is our oneness! Here's to you...

oh thanks tal. Very helpful. I didn't realise you were doing the English translation yourself. Awesome job mate !

Hi baba

原来 does convey the meaning of 'originally' which with a lateral twist of thought and a momentary vision of time as not necessarily linear but more kind of... err, spread out, can also convey the meaning of 'it was like that all along'.

There's a popular 俗语 in China: 原来如此 = That's how it is! It's a bit like saying 'I get it' and it's a bit like seeing it was that way all along.

e.g.

A: 玛丽的汉语怎么说得这么好呀？

B: 她七岁就跟爸爸妈妈到了中国，在中国已经生活了十年了。

A: 哦，原来如此。

A: How come Mary speaks Chinese so well?

B: She came to China with her parents when she was only seven, and she’s been living in China for ten years.

A: Oh, I see.

A: 你怎么这么会炒菜？

B: 因为我爸爸是特级厨师呀。

A: 原来如此。

A: How come you can cook so well?

B: Because my dad is a master chef.

A: Oh, I see.

Anyway the English translation I've done may well be off here and there from a literal point of view. I wasn't trying to do a literal translation, and it's just there as a guide perhaps.

...Hua Tuo shuo: this is stale mate !

Guan Gong huida [as he moved his piece with his other arm] : check mate,down to the bone.

Hua Tuo fǎnbó: what are you playing at? this has gotta Go...pass me my bowl

呵呵, in Chinese Chess (象棋 = Xiàngqí) stalemate is still considered to be a win I believe, (for the attacking player that is.)

In many versions of this tale however it's interesting that the game 关公 plays (with his adjutant Ma Liang) is not 象棋 but 围棋 (wéiqí), usually called 'Go' in the west.

whew for a second there I thought you were saying I'd aged several years overnight!

一堆碗 - oops sorry Zhenlijiang, just noticed that you are 21 hours ahead of me. I just thought it was funny that Barbs said on that other post that he just learnt a new MW. I only learnt this myself a couple of weeks ago. Just want to reinforce it.

oops I thought we were getting clear not raising new questions here, haha. Oh well ...

I know vessel can also mean "ships". By "vessel" above I meant containers like pitchers, vases, barrels etc.

My dictionary tells me 碗 takes the MW 个 (in any case it seems the use of it is common), as does 杯子. 杯 however could be a different story.

Baba's photo above illustrates 一摞(luò) 碗 or maybe 一堆(duī) 碗, as suansuanru gave us here, is better, because it's quite a high stack:

http://chinesepod.com/community/conversations/post/9032#comment-178152

I hate the feeling we could be getting much more input here from more people, if they could only find this discussion much more easily ...

so ,is that like 一碗碗, kinda like the 碗 version of Russian dolls..a bowl full of bowls:

..or is it一碗 [2 meanings for the price of one character]?

Hi zhenlijiang, yes of course, in English vessel can refer to something to a ship or a container. However, I've usually run across the measure words 条 or 艘 used as measure words for boats, never 只. Still, I make no claims to expertise.

Re: bodawei's question on 碗, my dictionary lists it as one of those words that is its own measure word. Other examples include 杯，天，etc.

And boats are vessels too aren't they? Just kidding.

I decided to translate 水桶 as 'barrel' anyway, because I could more easily imagine a severely swollen arm looking like one, (i.e. bowed outwards in the middle.)

FWIW my J-C dictionary differs just a bit from Wenlin. It says 只 is a MW for:

A) one of a pair, B) certain animals, C) certain instruments/utensils--I'm translating 器具, quite a broad word, from Japanese（两只手表，一只竹筐——bamboo baskets may be "utensils" but they are vessels aren't they?) and D) boats.

Anyway I think we're clear that 只 is the MW for 水桶 bucket.

Thanks Tvan - I responded to this in a reply to Barbs. If it is a noun there is no MW. I am still struggling for a clear view on this (never good with grammar).

thanks zhen :)

Hi Bodawei and Baba I think (thought!) you guys have already resolved these questions so I'm not adding anything new here. Seems to me if you're in a restaurant--as opposed to a tableware store--you will be saying 碗 meaning the MW for rice, or soup or whatever, and not the bowls themselves. (You might have the opportunity to refer to the bowl itself in a restaurant if you've broken one and want to report it to your server.) I agree with what you guys have already said, it's not that the MW comes last in such a case, rather the nouns that would come after the MW are often dropped because there's no need to mention; both parties already know what's being talked about and you're now just specifying size / amount.

re 两空碗 and 两大碗 being the same construction, again, as you've already said, 空+碗 can't be the same as the MW 大腕, just as we would not in English speak of "two empty bowls of rice". Ah, maybe spoke too soon? I thought this was resolved but now see you're having a discussion with suansuanru.

Actually I was reminded of the discussion we had about 一盆花 not long ago. Bodawei I only bring this up to observe that you might have more questions than someone like myself on points like this because you live in China and go shopping and out to eat there, have so much experience with real live Chinese being spoken every day. My mental notes are limited and "neat" and "everything is resolved" because I'm not living there, and I just accept what teacher / textbook / dictionary tells me.

speaking of measure words I really like some English ones like murder of crows,and hand of bananas [because of the visual similarity..seems apt enough],so I decided to use yellowbridge [recently discovered it lists the measure word..a shortcoming of mdbg as far as I can see] and see what the Chinese mw for bananas is [thinking it's unlikely to be hand] and lo and behold there are 4 of them! :

http://www.yellowbridge.com/chinese/wordsearch.php?searchMode=I&characterMode=s&dialect=M&word=21211

..none of them 手 of course. Wonder what the story is here? One was the default 个 and I guess in English we have also the more common "bunch"...so 2 in our case [or maybe more..a case of bananas, a truckload...I guess there are different ways of measuring things....I suppose it's then a matter of working out what these mw's are actually a measure of].

I think I got from this that 两大碗 and 一大个 both involve dropping the noun

...yes,I think when these two are correctly written,they are acting as measure words for implied nouns that have been dropped.When wanting to speak of the bowl itself it needs to be 两个大碗 [like when buying new bowls in a shop]

Maybe they are both right

..I think so...that's why I said it depends on context [when a noun has been dropped for example..you are relying on context for the implication of that noun]

两空碗 is actually the same construction as 两大碗 so if one is right the other is right

..agreed. Interestingly google gives:

两个大碗。。。336,000

两大碗。。。1,100,000

..so in this the latter structure is more popular.What is illuminating here is seeing in what context the first few examples of each returned.Here are a couple:

两个大碗不能并排放。。two large bowls cannot be placed side by side

...here clearly referring to the bowls themselves

吃两大晚饭 [..eating two bowls of rice]

...here clearly acting as a measure word

Actually I see what you mean now, I'm a slow learner. 两空碗 doesn't make sense; 碗 must be a noun because as a MW it would need to be full (or half full) of something. We've indicated it is empty (or literally 'clean'.) Full of air? Must be 两个空碗. Thanks. But maybe 两空个 would work. :)

Thanks Barbs

I think I got from this that 两大碗 and 一大个 both involve dropping the noun; 碗 and 个 are both MWs, because you can't have a noun without a MW. Dropping the noun is in fact very common - and your analogy of 'a big one' is I think spot on.

And 两空碗 should be 两个空碗? - hmm. Maybe they are both right; one uses 碗 as a noun, the other 碗 as a MW. Not that I don't trust Google, but 两空碗 is actually the same construction as 两大碗 so if one is right the other is right. One point that occurs to me - Google only returns written language where there is not so much context. I'm not sure that Google is reliable for spoken language. Neither am I. :)

just tried to answer my own question about how correct 两空碗 is. Google has:

"两空碗"....70,100

"两个空碗"。。。。1,400,000

..and given the extra character [which would tend to reduce the number of returns] I think this is significant. So what to make of 两空碗。。。just foreigners,little kids? hehe, ...correct when part of something larger? fine to drop the measure word sometimes?...ok ,but less common?

hehe, the first page of hits has it giving the same example each time..perhaps it's one erroneous post made 70100 times. Dunno mate,but I think this at least demonstrates that 两个空碗 is valid and in this case 个 is the measure word [measuring how many bowls ....not how many bowlsful] and thus 碗 is being used as the noun for bowl and not as a measure word.

You only say this when referring to two bowls full of something - does that make a difference to your comment?

..sort of. Basically when the bowl is measuring something else. Doesn't have to be full I wouldn't think. Could be half a bowl of rice.The rice is the thing being measured [by how many bowls full].

You're other examples have me stumped though.Very good question.

两空碗

...I think might comes down to context a little. I really don't know...just pondering here. It almost seems like the measure word has been replaced by an adjective if it is just describing the bowl [unless the bowl is the measure word in a sentence that has been cut short]. I guess what may have me stumped is the presumption this sentence is grammatically correct. I would have had it as:

两个空碗

As for 一大个

...yeah the measure word is last here,but only because the sentence has been cut short because the context has made it entirely clear that what is being referred to is:

一大瓶牛奶

..if it was bottle. I have heard that even native Chinese will sometimes use the default 个 even though there is a more specific mw. Perhaps they are more inclined to when cutting it short and leaving it at 个 [kind of seems natural enough....reminds me of how in English we might be more inclined to say "a big one?' than to say "a big bottle?" ] .But perhaps it was a carton,or a large milk can:

http://susieofarabia.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/dscf3176-2.jpg

I am the first to admit my limitations on grammar - so maybe that is why I don't understand your explanation. You only say this when referring to two bowls full of something - does that make a difference to your comment? If you want to refer to two empty bowls it is 两空碗 - again the MW at the end according to my bad Chinese. :) I don't think you can use a noun without a MW can you? But you do often substitute a MW for a noun. So if 碗 is a noun in the first case, there does not seem to be a MW.

Fortunately it hasn't impeded my communication so far, but I'd appreciate any simple explanation of this; I'd like to get it right.

And why does the lady selling me milk say 一大个？ I guess it is not that the MW is 'last', it is that the noun has been replaced by the MW. Perhaps I expressed myself incorrectly the first time.

ah,was going through this thread chronologically [well from the top anyway] and just now seen tvan said the same thing

With MWs the rules seem to be frequently broken by putting the MW last. Eg, at a restaurant I refer to two large bowls as 两大碗。Measure word last.

..ok,well I know next to zippo about Chinese grammar but I'll still share my thoughts on what you've said here. I would have thought in your example above 碗 was not acting as a measure word but rather as the noun for bowl. It's talking about the two large bowls themselves, not two large bowls of rice which would be different..in the latter it would be describing [measuring] how much rice is being referred to. A bit like the difference in English between talking about a spoon ,and a spoonful of sugar.