A Chinese Hero's Stiff Upper Lip

bababardwan

With MWs the rules seem to be frequently broken by putting the MW last. Eg, at a restaurant I refer to two large bowls as 两大碗。Measure word last.

..ok,well I know next to zippo about Chinese grammar but I'll still share my thoughts on what you've said here. I would have thought in your example above 碗 was not acting as a measure word but rather as the noun for bowl. It's talking about the two large bowls themselves, not two large bowls of rice which would be different..in the latter it would be describing [measuring] how much rice is being referred to. A bit like the difference in English between talking about a spoon ,and a spoonful of sugar.

bababardwan

ah,was going through this thread chronologically [well from the top anyway] and just now seen tvan said the same thing

bodawei

I am the first to admit my limitations on grammar - so maybe that is why I don't understand your explanation. You only say this when referring to two bowls full of something - does that make a difference to your comment? If you want to refer to two empty bowls it is 两空碗 - again the MW at the end according to my bad Chinese. :) I don't think you can use a noun without a MW can you? But you do often substitute a MW for a noun. So if 碗 is a noun in the first case, there does not seem to be a MW.

Fortunately it hasn't impeded my communication so far, but I'd appreciate any simple explanation of this; I'd like to get it right.

And why does the lady selling me milk say 一大个？ I guess it is not that the MW is 'last', it is that the noun has been replaced by the MW. Perhaps I expressed myself incorrectly the first time.

bababardwan

You only say this when referring to two bowls full of something - does that make a difference to your comment?

..sort of. Basically when the bowl is measuring something else. Doesn't have to be full I wouldn't think. Could be half a bowl of rice.The rice is the thing being measured [by how many bowls full].

You're other examples have me stumped though.Very good question.

两空碗

...I think might comes down to context a little. I really don't know...just pondering here. It almost seems like the measure word has been replaced by an adjective if it is just describing the bowl [unless the bowl is the measure word in a sentence that has been cut short]. I guess what may have me stumped is the presumption this sentence is grammatically correct. I would have had it as:

两个空碗

As for 一大个

...yeah the measure word is last here,but only because the sentence has been cut short because the context has made it entirely clear that what is being referred to is:

一大瓶牛奶

..if it was bottle. I have heard that even native Chinese will sometimes use the default 个 even though there is a more specific mw. Perhaps they are more inclined to when cutting it short and leaving it at 个 [kind of seems natural enough....reminds me of how in English we might be more inclined to say "a big one?' than to say "a big bottle?" ] .But perhaps it was a carton,or a large milk can:

http://susieofarabia.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/dscf3176-2.jpg

bababardwan

just tried to answer my own question about how correct 两空碗 is. Google has:

"两空碗"....70,100

"两个空碗"。。。。1,400,000

..and given the extra character [which would tend to reduce the number of returns] I think this is significant. So what to make of 两空碗。。。just foreigners,little kids? hehe, ...correct when part of something larger? fine to drop the measure word sometimes?...ok ,but less common?

hehe, the first page of hits has it giving the same example each time..perhaps it's one erroneous post made 70100 times. Dunno mate,but I think this at least demonstrates that 两个空碗 is valid and in this case 个 is the measure word [measuring how many bowls ....not how many bowlsful] and thus 碗 is being used as the noun for bowl and not as a measure word.

bodawei

Thanks Barbs

I think I got from this that 两大碗 and 一大个 both involve dropping the noun; 碗 and 个 are both MWs, because you can't have a noun without a MW. Dropping the noun is in fact very common - and your analogy of 'a big one' is I think spot on.

And 两空碗 should be 两个空碗? - hmm. Maybe they are both right; one uses 碗 as a noun, the other 碗 as a MW. Not that I don't trust Google, but 两空碗 is actually the same construction as 两大碗 so if one is right the other is right. One point that occurs to me - Google only returns written language where there is not so much context. I'm not sure that Google is reliable for spoken language. Neither am I. :)

bodawei

Actually I see what you mean now, I'm a slow learner. 两空碗 doesn't make sense; 碗 must be a noun because as a MW it would need to be full (or half full) of something. We've indicated it is empty (or literally 'clean'.) Full of air? Must be 两个空碗. Thanks. But maybe 两空个 would work. :)

bodawei

Thanks Tvan - I responded to this in a reply to Barbs. If it is a noun there is no MW. I am still struggling for a clear view on this (never good with grammar).

Tal

呵呵, in Chinese Chess (象棋 = Xiàngqí) stalemate is still considered to be a win I believe, (for the attacking player that is.)

In many versions of this tale however it's interesting that the game 关公 plays (with his adjutant Ma Liang) is not 象棋 but 围棋 (wéiqí), usually called 'Go' in the west.

bababardwan

...Hua Tuo shuo: this is stale mate !

Guan Gong huida [as he moved his piece with his other arm] : check mate,down to the bone.

Hua Tuo fǎnbó: what are you playing at? this has gotta Go...pass me my bowl