The "Taiwanese" Accent
pulosm
October 16, 2007, 02:59 PM posted in General DiscussionA lot of to do has been made of the so-called Taiwanese accent, that I think a post is warranted on this topic. First off, let me point out that what is called the Taiwanese accent is really something that you will here in most of southern China, not just Taiwan.
Three types: Taiwanese Mandarin, Mandarin with Taiwanese Accent, and Standard Taiwanese Mandarin.
(1) The first type is best exemplified by Chen Shui-Bian. When he speaks Mandarin, he has an extremely heavy Taiwanese accent. This is no different than the type of "problem" Cantonese speakers have when they speak Mandarin and it comes from a person's prominent langauge being something other than Mandarin. There are SO many attributes to this, but they are not worth mentioning because this accent is seen less and less by younger people and in big cities.
(2) Mandarin with a Taiwanese accent is just a regional difference that is NOT considered proper even in Taiwan, but is quite common. This accent is seen all over southern China, not just in Taiwan. Some examples:
(a) Failure to "juan3she2" (curl the tongue), so "sh, zh, ch" all sound like "s, z, c"
(b) No distinction between "ang, eng, ing" and "an, en, in."
(c) Pronounciation of "eng" as "ong" sometimes (as in "feng1", which sounds like "fong1")
(3) Standard Taiwanese Mandarin: Even here there are differences, but they are relatively few, I'd say:
- Use of traditional characters
- Tonal/Pronunciation differences: For example, the word for "ripe" is pronounced "shou2" in Taiwan, but "shu2" in the Mainland. The "qi" of "xingqi" (week), is pronounced "qi2" in Taiwan and "qi1" in Mainland China. The "ye" meaning "coconut" is pronounced "ye2" in Taiwan and "ye1" in the Mainland, etc., etc. [on zhongwen.com these differences are always denoted, so check that out!]
- Tones in General: Taiwanese people don't use the "fifth" or neutral tone as much (at all?). In Beijing, it seems like every other word loses its tone, but in Taiwan, you pronounce all the tones in a word. Also, the Beijing third tone is much sharper and crisper than in Taiwan.
- Lexical differences: Of course, there are different words. What comes to mind is the word for "pineapple" in Taiwan is "feng4li2" and in Mainland is "bo1luo2" (the latter is also the Cantonese version); "potato" is "ma3ling2shu3" in Taiwan, but "tu3dou4" in Mainland (the latter means "peanut" in the Taiwanese language, so this is why they have probably shied away from this word in Mandarin). You roommate is your "tong2wu1" in Mainland, meaning literally "same room" (so cold...lol!), but your "shi4you3" (room friend) in Taiwan.
Anyway, these aren't exhaustive lists...just trying to point out some general principles.
azerdocmom
October 19, 2007, 08:22 PMpulosm Ahma taught ESL in Taiwan for a decade in the 90's and explains things pretty well. That cartoon is adorable! Having the hanzi is helpful for learners. Man2Toe The YT clipboard is great; it must be something YT automatically does when you embed a clip because that's all I did. I haven't figured out how to place hanzi on the bottom of Ahma's clips. I think I have to import it into my iMovie app and do it in there somehow. Ah, so much Mandarin fun, so little time : )
odaneng
October 16, 2007, 07:20 PMAfter living in Beijing for a year, going to Taiwan was rough at first. They're at opposite ends of the mandarin spectrum as far as juan3she2: extreme R's in Beijing, almost none at all in Taiwan. 44NT = si si si kuai?? Over time (7 years) I started to adopt some of the Taiwanisms: saying Jiang instead of Shuo; liaojie instead of lijie; deng deng The big difference are people on the street. Most educated people I knew there spoke more or less like Jenny and co. Just a few more dropped R's. I'm sort of in between now. Taiwanese say I speak "hao biaojun a!"; Mainlanders peg me for Taiwanese. I guess it's meant to be and goes along with my Anywhere, USA, Brady Bunch English. Joe
pulosm
October 16, 2007, 08:19 PMI lived in Beijing and Taiwan for almost equal amounts of time and I have to say standard Taiwan Mandarin is the one that stuck. I feel like Beijingers are singing Chinese opera. I think it's the "qing1sheng1"...it just doesn't sound right.
maxiewawa
October 17, 2007, 04:20 AMI grew up with a Taiwanese mother, and since coming to Shanghai I've noticed these differences. It never struck me that they were differences between Taiwan and the mainland though; I just thought I was making a mistake! II've always said 'fong' for 风 and qi2 for 星期。。。I get 'n' and 'ng' sounds mixed up all the time... Anyway, until now I've thought these were problems that only I've been making, good to know that I'm not alone. Another "Taiwanism" that I've had to get over was using 'e' for 'er'. That is to say, pronouncing 二，而，耳 as an 'e' sound instead of 'er'. Maybe that's just a tongue curling thing too.
marchey
October 17, 2007, 02:17 PMWhen I was in Yangshuo last year a lot of people made me repeat words to correct my pronounciation. It was often funny. My pronounciation is of course far from perfect, but they wanted me to sound like them. So, everytime I said Yangshuo, they would correct me and say: "no, no, it's Yansuo". :-)
Kyle
October 17, 2007, 02:32 PMI'm curious if locals in other areas are always criticizing the way that other Chinese speak. Harbiners are constantly commenting on how Chinese from other cities speak. Maybe there's a bit of prejudice there since Harbiners consider themselves to have the most standard Mandarin in the country.
gregmcgrath
October 17, 2007, 04:25 PMI don't speak with the Taiwanese accent but I lived there for 2 years. My favorite expressions by Taiwanese ama (grandma's): fei1 chang2 = hui1 cang2 biao1 zhun3 = bao1 zun3 guo2 yu3 = gou2 yi3 It's funny stuff and really cute when it comes from an old Taiwanese grandma!
tangmoo
October 17, 2007, 04:45 PMkyle, I could count on the fingers of my three hands the number of times I have been out drinking with 'Harbiners' and they have told me how standard their chinese is and i've struggled to understand them. I tried to learn taiwanese for a while but it never stuck, i'd keep rolling back into '天安门rrrrrrr', '服务员rrrrrr' and ‘北陵西门rrrrrrrr'... besides, it's more comical to have a westerner with a regional accent. or comically go to shandong.. i really never know what anyone is talking about there.
pulosm
October 17, 2007, 04:58 PMgreg: that is what I called "Taiwanese Mandarin" and it is the hardest to understand for non-Taiwanese because it is people speaking Mandarin with heavy Taiwanese accents (meaning Taiwanese is their first language). This woman kept asking me if I spoke "hua4 yu3" and I was so confused...I thought she was saying "hua2 yu3" like "Chinese" or something. It turns out, she was asking me if I spoke French. Tangmoo, I stopped the "er" thing when I went to Taiwan because it just didn't work in that context. Now it sounds so strange to me if I have to use it. I don't go so far as what Maxiewawa is talking about and not pronounce the "r" where the word has an "r" sound (i.e., er4 or the number "two"), but I certainly don't add it and I certainly say "na3li3" and not "nar3". ;-) Maxiewawa, I watched some of your simultaneous interpreting. It's pretty good (and entertaining)!!! I had to interpret once, but it wasn't simultaneous and even THAT was hard. It's a lot easier from Western language to Western language than it is from Chinese to English. I had to go both ways (Chinese to ENglish, English to Chinese). Translation and interpretation is a skill in and of itself, beyond just mastery of the language. Good luck with your endeavor!
azerdocmom
October 16, 2007, 04:33 PMYour necessarily abbreviated explanation of the differences is quite excellent. Because Jenny's pronunciation is so pure, I can tell the differences between what I am used to hearing/speaking and the mainland/Shanghai brand of Mandarin. Without extensive exposure to the Chinese language, however, I doubt new non-native learners can tell the differences well. My mother was a school teacher after graduating from Normal Univerisity in Taipei. I think she (and thus we) speak "Standard Taiwanese Mandarin" (to use your definition.) Her first language, however, was Taiwanese. I recognize "Mandarin with a heavy Taiwanese accent" well since many of my relatives on my mom's side speak that way.
gregmcgrath
October 18, 2007, 04:24 PMAzerDocMom, that was awesome. Thanks for sharing. Is that your grandma?
azerdocmom
October 18, 2007, 04:33 PMShe's my mom, "Ahma" to my kids. Did you understand her?
pulosm
October 18, 2007, 04:58 PMWhat a cute song! My favorite is the last part of Ahma's song. She gets into it. Shu4 shang4 xiao3niao3 xiao4 "ha ha." I love it.
azerdocmom
October 19, 2007, 01:56 AMYeah, she's good. The other 2 clips of her reciting children's poems are cute, too.
gregmcgrath
October 19, 2007, 03:42 PMHey sorry it took me so long to get back to you. Work has been hectic. Yeah, I can understand it for the most part. Super cute grandma! Thanks for sharing.
pulosm
October 19, 2007, 03:51 PMI watched them after I posted this. I like her explanation in English of them, especially "da4 tou2, da4 tou2".... Speaking of which, have you all seen "da4 tou2 er2zi, xiao3 tou2 ba4ba" ??? It is a cute cartoon.
pulosm
October 19, 2007, 04:00 PMhttp://youtube.com/watch?v=zN8WB5FfC70 (I found this on youtube...re: 大头儿子和小头爸爸)
man2toe
October 19, 2007, 07:21 PMAzer Doc, The youtube post with the clipboard is awesome. Made me think how cpod could utilize this type of web2.0 to further their teaching tools, ex, like the song, have the dialouges read and videoed with the text streaming at the bottom. This would utilize a different route into my brain. What do you think? 設限 化解 原點
azerdocmom
October 17, 2007, 05:57 PMgreg regarding "ama", you might find this interesting:
Lantian
October 16, 2007, 04:19 PMSo which of the three would you consider is the accent I hear when I watch Taiwanese shows broadcast in China. It doesn't sound like the southern Chinese accent to me. Basically, I'm talking about the dramas, game shows and talk shows.