Tones: Beyond Basics

I can definitely agree that the third tone isn't anywhere near as exaggerated in natural speech as it is when taught to foreigners. It's spoken much quicker and sometimes incomparable to how a new non-native speaker would pronounce it. The tone pairs, as you mentioned, are imperative. John does a great job of covering those on sinosplice.

maxiewawa, But it's not really flat at all (even if it doesn't rise very high in many cases). If you download PRAAT, a piece of software for linguistic acoustic analysis, you can actually see the tone contours of your own speech. It's pretty cool.

Good find, Pulosm! :)

I agree with John. I think that more than anything, the learner should just be open to the fact that the tones morph and change. All too often, I believe, there is a tendency to stick to rigid applications of what the tone "should be" and ignore what they are actually hearing. As for the third tone, though, I tend to think that it is definitely necessary to explain how it interacts with other tones. Your tone pair drill is necessary, I believe, mainly because the way the tones "interact" isn't readily apparent from the way they are described. At the very least, someone should tell beginners that in third-and-then-second-tone word combos, the third tone does not rise up at all. Hope you all find the article interesting.

Good. I need some help with my tones...

Hi italiana Haven't seen you here for a long while. Have you been busy?

pulosm, I've done quite a bit of research into the complexities of tones, and I agree that it's interesting. I'll have to check out this article. I have to say, though, that I don't think it's in the learners' best interest to teach this stuff too early. In fact, I'm not sure it's necessary to teach it at all. I think that as long as your pronunciation hasn't fossilized, you're going to pick up on all the little tones rules unconsciously in your natural language acquisition process. Oh, BTW, here's a link to the stuff Kyle mentioned above: Sinosplice Tone Pair Drills.

Pulosm, All too often, I believe, there is a tendency to stick to rigid applications of what the tone "should be" and ignore what they are actually hearing. So true!

Two thoughts on this topic: 1) I asked a Chinese friend if he were aware of other tone rules, like third-third morphs to second-third, and he wasn't. 2) I wouldn't be able to say anything if I had to stop and think about what tone to use for each word I spoke and how it was affected by other tones next to it. So, I think it must need lots of practice speaking and listening, and then it just happens. (Not that I'm there, yet.).

I agree with mark's recommendation, just repeat without analyzing and let it happen, pick up the melody. Native speakers are the ones you want to mimic, but they're often not the best to reflect upon their language and explain the fundamentals. It's compiled knowledge buried deep within, I find that if they slow down their speech to emphasize pronunciation, it tends to distort it.

re: Goulnicky Hear! Hear! Ask a Chinese person to explain the tones and they'll do a terrible job. They'll recite something, and it'll sound unnatural. The third tone isn't falling-rising in most cases. Whenever I explain tones to friends who start learning Chinese I always tell them that the third tone is "low flat tone" and that the first is "high flat tone". Now that I think about it, "low flat tone" is a little confusing; the third isn't always "low flat"... but if, as the 1st post suggests, the 3rd tone doesn't rise up as it is supposed to, wouldn't "low flat tone" be a better name?

College. Yes, I started early! Im 16. But been very busy