The case for the vacuum approach ("looking everything up")

Once I was also still pursuing the lazy "context" approach for my English - at a time when online dictionaries had not yet become as accessible and comfortable as they are today. I vividly remember when that at one point it became fashionable to use the word "to facilitate" in international IS publications (or at least I became more aware of that word) - "facilitate the application of", "facilitate usage" etc. From the context I figured it was probably something like "foster", "push to use" or even "urge", because in the examples I found that would have perfectly made sense. Only much later looking up the word I found out it must be something weaker. At that time I had applied this word improperly several times already. This kind of misunderstanding happened to me so often that one day I decided to look up *every* unclear word. That really brought my passive English vocab base forward (you never get near a native speaker, but at least you can e.g. follow English podcasts). And now I apply the same to Chinese and again there are many examples where context is worth nothing. Of course context can work in the long run. But it is inefficient: Every occurance of a word narrows down the spectrum of possible meanings, but it takes *a lot* of *different* examples to get to the point where you can nail a concept down. Each example is an constraint until you fix all variables. But the context of *one* article or dialogue certainly is not enough. And often a wide range of words is often framed by context in the very same way so there are no new constraints and you are left in limbo. Just look at goulnik's 88news: 发表, 指出, 提出, 宣布, 谴责 etc. etc. - all those words are used in the very same way, yet there are often significant variations in meanings that you only get from...exactly: Your dictionary!

I agree with wolson, there needs to be a challenge and 10 lookups per article seem too cozy for me. It must hurt a bit otherwise where is the fun? ;) I also use paper dictionaries mostly for in-depth review or reading in them for the fun of it. I stopped using that pop-up-stuff, because that makes me to lazy, it is like a tranquilizer. The copy-and-paste step is essential - I use those precious seconds to make my own bet on the meaning. It is a a lot more active. @Goulnik: PlecoDict seems superior from all I see - but! I doubt that my next phone will have this terrible Microsoft OS again. I ponder over switching to an IPone mid term...but that is not decided and also not yet approved by my Ministry of Finance.

You can actually do a controlled experiment regarding your individual context-infering skills: Take a new Advanced podcast. 1. Listen to the dialogue only or read the script without looking at the vocab. Note down any unknown words. Try to infer the meaning from context. Write a suggestion for a translation down. 2. Listen to the full podcast. Try to get the translation from the explanations. Write down your understanding again. Especially interesting are the explanations that are not just giving synonyms (because that is too near to a dictionary lookup). 3. Look up the translations. 4. Compare any differences between 1-3. Then you know what method works best for you. My personal approach derived from working 2 years with Chinesepod: 1. Listen to the podcast. Look up new words from the banter on the way. 2. Work through dialogue, expansion, and exercises - looking up each and every word you do not know. 3. Listen to the podcast again with special attention to the explanation of the already familiar words regarding subtle differences to translations. 4. Relisten often.

Henning writes "all those words are used in the very same way, yet there are often significant variations in meanings that you only get from...exactly: Your dictionary! " I disagree: unless you have a very good dictionary, you will get some definitions but they do not allways indicate which definition you should be applying. You have to do some work yourself and sometimes, it is guesswork even with a dictionary. I have several dictionaries back in the US that I use but I have yet to find a dictionary for Chinese/English, English/Chinese, that is equates to the knowledge that I get from Oxford Dictionary of the English language that is usually only found in good libraries. Fact of life: I probably never will. So there will still be guesswork and while a dictionary can help you with some precision, it is not the total solution.

I like Henning's method for the Advanced Podcasts: I have to try it.

wolson, you are definately right. Looking up words is only good for passive vocab (understanding). You are far from being able to *use* those words properly. Therefore you need to see lots of examples first and internalize the usage. For active usage a dictionary is helpful if you already learned how to use words and they just won't spring to your mind when needing them.

Dear henning, something that clay wrote in the "2 years in CPOD" thread made something go "ding" in my head. If I understand clay correctly, he is not pro-looking up. But his preferred alternative to that was skimming the entire text for meaning, and then trying to get meaning from a more analytical -- but still "natural", ie dictionary-free -- reading first. Actually, I do skim everything first, to try and get the meaning contextually -- after all, Chinese is an "isolating (sp.?) language", which means that word-by-word reading may not yield sense; so much meaning is derived from the context/ word order. But after I have inferred the meaning of the text intuitively, I will (habitually) look up any words which still "niggle" me. And there are some types of Mandarin questions which are more likely yield a meaningful answer with the help of a bit of dictionary work: Eg. 语言 vs 言语 vs 语文 -- calkins asked a similar question only this morning. So sometimes, to get the very different meanings straight in my head, the best way and easiest way for me is to look up similar constructions in my dictionary (preferably one with plenty of good, simple examples, like the one I've got now), and compare them. It depends on the person; I am not trying to force this on everybody. For me, and just me, that's what makes it stick. Another very useful thing I've discovered about dictionaries -- meaning, print dictionaries -- is that freely wandering a few entries above and below the exact entry I was looking up aiming for helps to give me (again that's me, not everybody) a sense of how "meaning" elements and "phonetic" elements work in the Chinese language. By far the greatest "leaps" I've made so far this year 2008 all seem to have had something to do with the fact that I began using a Chinese-only dictionary, where the definitions are all in Chinese. This is the "little dictionary" which I am constantly referring to, almost comically. It is a good dictionary, which has many, many examples, definitions written in clear and simple Chinese, and even "usage notes" covering just about every question which -- say -- calkins -- has asked in the past month or so. For me (just me), I feel I get a clearer idea / "feel" of the meaning of any Chinese word if I can read a good definition in Chinese, rather than an English synonym. Having said that, I know very well that this dictionary would be gathering dust in some corner of my apartment (or the boot of my car) if it weren't so well adapted to "learners".

Oh wow, when I started writing my spiel, there weren't any replies yet to this thread! Have to agree with Wolson about the helpfulness of dictionaries if they are really, really good. Well, I am happy with my dictionary, which is a 2008 abridged version of the latest (ie 2006) Commercial Press Learner's dictionary. This is essentially the definitive Beijing version (produced in collaboration with the Beijing Languages and Culture University), but with extra usage examples, "usage notes" targetted at learners of Chinese as a foreign language (and also some specifically addressing "Southern" Chinese usage), and the foreword explains that all the definitions were reviewed by teachers of Chinese as a foreign language, and simplified where possible pursuant to their feedback.

auntie, what dictionary are you using? Is there an online version? After wolson and auntie provided such balanced posts there is hardly any room for controversy left, I guess. Because they are absolutely right that the approach to look-ups depends on a pethory of factors coming from setting, learner, and even daytime. And I was working so hard to turn this into a MAU-point-collection-engine. ;)

correction, here we go again: "a plethora of factors" auntie, haven't seen your post before, thanks for the info.

Good... this does deserve soem discussion on its own. Personally, I beleive that the best learning lies in between. You can not possibly look every unknown word up in a dictionary. But equally true is that you can not learn everything from context. So the real question is "what is the appropriate mix?" As I said elsewhere, I am trying to read a Chinese novel primarily to learn how Chinese relate to each other. I do not feel textbooks adequately prepare you for this. I chose several novels with lots of conversation in them. I am only into the first novel and only a few pages. I can immediately recognize 2/3's of the characters. However, I do have a difficult time understanding the text. My approach has been to first read a few pages trying to determine what it means in some sort of understanding. As I am reading, I highlight with a yellow marker the characters that I do not know. Later on a second reading, I try to determine what the unknown characters are using the characters immediately before it. THen I look them up in a dictionary. If I can not decipher the character, then I use Hanzidict followed by a dictionary lookup. Even that fails sometimes and I have to slave through the radical finding and character finding method. Clay Roup posted that he was forced by a teacher to use a tree step method which I think is also good. I think that during the first reading, one should avoid trying to look up characters but rather attempt to use the characters that you do know to determine the meaning of the passage. Then build on this with the dictionary. What I found previously, that if I looked up each character as I reading, first I never finished the text and second, I was not learning because I was not trying enough to use what I did know to help me. So I found that the two step above has helped me.

henning, only if you find the following kind of "usage note" useful: [QUOTE] 举办 vs 举行： "举办“ 和 “举行“ 的对象有些是共同的， 如：举行 （举办）音乐会。举行（举办）庆祝仪式。但 “举办“ 的对象还有事业，这时不能跟 “举行“ 换用， 如：举办 （＊举行）了很多福利事业。“举行“ 的对象还有会谈，示威，游行等，这时不能跟 "举办“ 换用，如： 举行 （＊举办）会谈。举行 （＊举办）游行。举行 （＊举办）罢工。 [/QUOTE] I didn't manage to find an online version, because it is such a new work, but a bookstore manager here that I spoke to said that it is flying off the shelves in Singapore. For what it's worth, then, that was my honest review...

Not available at Amazon Germany. But I will look out for it the next time I am in Beijing.

ah, plethora, you almost had me headed for my english dictionary. I think the topic has been well addressed already, but I am dissappointed sometimes in the cpod translations. They are paraphrased interpretations and as a student of Chinese I would also like to see the literal translations so I can see where the meaning comes from. The paraphrasing sometimes I feel is a matter of opinion. Somewhat subjective. Lexical chunks and paraphrasing are fine - after I get the literal translation once, so I can anchor it in my mind. boy I really wish we had a spell checker. I am used to typing very fast and then depending on a spell checker to clean up - And here you cant edit, as has been pointed out numerous times.

RJBerki, if I may be "naughty": I know where you are coming from because I believe there have been a few strings of comments lately arising from CPOD translations which may have been a bit... sloppy. Eg. the final beauty pageant episode, when "they must have been altered" was somehow translated a bit too sloppily, as "they must have altered them". I like to think that CPOD is paying more attention now.

Hi guys, The best way to look up dictionaries AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE is to avoid reading matters far beyond your reading ability or to read materials on the Internet with the help of pop-up dictionaries, such as ChinesePerakun. Life is short, and time (or your patience) is limited. Please don’t waste your time flipping paper dictionaries all day long. If you find more than ten words you don’t know in every page, the book is still not the right one for you. Of course, you should look up words in the dictionary, like it or not, as much as possible if you are a student who learns foreign languages at university or a cornered businessman who needs to master Chinese in a crash course. I always enjoy the process of learning, but at the same time, I would like to obtain new information through reading foreign newspapers and magazines, which is why I don’t want to spend much time looking through a dictionary. On the other hand, I love paper dictionaries and feel happiest when I get a new dictionary and open it in my study. Naturally, I basically like looking up words, but only when writing in English or Chinese, not when reading. Writing requires deeper knowledge of grammar and words, and just using online (or pop-up) dictionaries is definitely far from enough, especially when you want to check the usages of basic words, such as 给, 就, and 把. Fortunately (?), I don’t have much interest in novels, which are usually more difficult to read than newspaper articles. My major interests are in science, phonology and world news, thankfully, where you seldom come across 成语!

henning, when Pleco releases their v2 (which I hopes comes soon), one of their bundles will include the Chinese only Standard Dictionary of Modern Chinese (现代汉语规范词典. I'll make sure to always have enough battery life in my smartphone :-) Meanwhile, I use the thick 现代汉语词典-汉英双语; bilingual but orginially Chinese only, but I make sure to read defs and examples in Chinese too. not available online that I know of. Agree with many of changye's point as usual (even though his mastery is way above mine).

I agree -- humbly -- with uncle changye's points too, even though I am still hopelessly dependent on my dictionary, not only for writing, but also for reading. But where I want to be (eventually) is basically what uncle changye has described... it makes so much sense to me.

I am not in agreement with Changye's first two paragraphs: You do need to challenge yourself: ten unknown words on a page that contains approximately 1000 characters is far too conservative if you are actively trying to learn Chinese. I will agree that flipping through pages of a Chinese dictionary is too time consuming to be effective. However, tools like Hanzidict and ZDT speed the process by several orders of magnitude. A paper dictionary is the last possible resort when nothing else works. Paper dictionaries are generally good for those occasions where I know the word and want to get a better understanding of the word. In addition, they are very useful when I know the English word but do not know the Chinese word. But character lookup is very slow and painful... not the best use of a dictionary in my opinion.

henning -- aiyah! Well, if you want to know, the dictionary I get all those examples from is this one: Times - CP Chinese Learner's Dictionary 时代－商务馆学华语词典 published by EPB Pan Pacific (2008) ISBN: 978-981-271-770-2 It's a joint effort between a Singapore company -- Panpac Education Private Limited -- and Beijing's The Commercial Press (商务印书馆). Based on the Commercial Press Chinese Learner's Dictionary, published 2006. Okay, it runs to 984 pages, but the front cover dimensions are (exactly) that of a DVD case. So I don't sprain my wrist when I pick it up. I'm not connected with the publishers! I would definitely recommend this dictionary as any learner's first-ever "Chinese-only" dictionary, simply because it is specifically tailored for learners.