How hard is Chinese?

kencarroll
May 27, 2007, 03:51 AM posted in General Discussion

Here's a very well presented blog post on learning Chinese.

See, below for his overview of learning Chinese grammar:

Grammar: 3 (pretty easy)

Pros:

  1. Word order is often the same between Chinese and English
  2. Pronouns. No distionction between he/she/it. And no distinction between cases (he, she, her, it, its). tā 他= he, him, she, her, it. To make the possessive form add the “de 的” particle (tā de 他的).
  3. No inflected cases of any kind (like in German or Slavic languages)
  4. No plural nouns. “Apple” and “apples” are both are translated píngguǒ 苹果. The only exception is the plural suffix “men” for pronouns (wǒ 我= I, wǒmen 我们= us; tā 他/她/它= he/she/it, tāmen 他们= them). But as you see, even that doesn’t change depending on usage.
  5. No verb tenses to speak of. Do, does, did, doing, done are all translated as zuò. Tense is shown by time markers (”yesterday I do”) or tricky little particles (”I am going to go now” = wǒ zǒu le 我走了(I go + particle to show change in states or situation).
  6. No articles. “A book,” “the book,” the Chinese don’t care. Just say “book” (shū 书).

Cons:

  1. Measure words. Nothing could be perfect. Even though there’s no plural or articles, they had to add those pesky little measure words that basically serve no linguistic purpose. There is no way to say “One book” in Chinese without saying the correct measure word (běn 本). So, really what you’re saying in Chinese is “One bound-thing book” (yì běn shū 一本书). Or for table, “One flat-surfaced-thing table” (yì zhāng zhuōzi 一张桌子). My Chinese friends avidly condone measure words as a way of categorizing and organizing the world and telling you the shape of the thing you’re going to be talking about. I reply with, “There’s no reason for me to know the shape of the thing you’re about to say because you’re about to say the name of the thing itself which will be infinitely more useful for my imagining its shape.” I then hear crickets chirping for a few seconds and we change subjects. My theory as to the practical use for measure words has to do with the myriad homonyms in Chinese, but that’s another post.
  2. Adjectival phrases. Not all the word order is the same. The biggest difference, in my experience, is saying things like, “The person reading a book” in Chinese needs to be said, “The reading book person” (kàn shū de rén 看书的人).
    Adverbs of place. Similar to the adjectival phrases, “Behind the shop” needs to be said “At the shop behind place” (zài shāngdiàn hòumian 在商店后门).
  3. Tricky little particles. It’s a real trick to master when to throw in a “ba 吧” or a “ne 呢” or a “de 的” or a “le 了.” But if I’m not sure I just pick my favorite and at least other foreigners think I know what I’m saying.
  4. Word order very important. To pay the piper for all the perks of not having any cases or tenses, the Chinese depend very much on word order to convey meaning. Although it’s not as important in conversational Chinese as the textbooks would have us believe, throwing two words in the wrong order can absolutely stump most of them. I’ll try to think of a real-life example soon (it seems like it’s happened so often, yet they all escape me).
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f1b1
May 27, 2007, 04:00 AM

When it all gets too much for me I just remember that I can usually decode someone's best attempts at English, and hope that the Chinese will do the same for me. Points for effort count in the real world. Perfection takes a little longer.

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douglasboyle

Well said man.

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ibowfornoman
May 27, 2007, 10:52 AM

since i no longer live in china i can only listen to what other people say. For example. I´ve heard that the measure words a dissapering more and more and 个 is taking over. Is this true? and is this good or bad for the language?

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beirne
May 29, 2007, 01:37 AM

This is a good posting on what is easy and hard in Chinese. What he says about articles, though, isn't quite that simple. There is still a sense of whether a noun is definite or indefinite in Chinese, but it is based on word order. For example, a noun at the beginning of a sentence is generally definite, as is the noun after 把.

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root
September 04, 2013, 11:01 AM

Economist has a link to a study that lists Mandarin as one of the weirdest languages in the world. The authors compared a bunch of languages to the most average language in the world, from what i understood, and measured how far each language is from this average , or "normal" language. English also came at the top of the weird list, while Cantonese turns out to be one of the most normal languages...

I subjectively agree, both on English and Chinese, what do you guys think?

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2013/08/economist-explains-19

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Legless

That is pretty hard to judge without some idea of what constitutes a "normal" language. English certainly stands out amongst the Germanic languages as being different. Do you know what makes Mandarin "weird" in comparison to Cantonese?

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root

I haven't seen the whole data set of all language features, but they do try to address this a bit

"Even more surprising is that Mandarin Chinese is in the top 25 weirdest and Cantonese is in the bottom 10. This has to do with the fact that they have different sounds: Mandarin, unlike Cantonese has uvular continuants and has some limits on “velar nasals” (like English, Mandarin can have a sound like at the end of song but it can’t have that sound at the beginning of words—worldwide it’s rare to have that particular restriction)."

http://idibon.com/the-weirdest-languages/

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Legless

Hmm...it seems a bit of a stretch to say that a language is weird due to the LACK of one particular sound. Also, I'm not sure which sounds in Mandarin would be described as uvular. I would have thought that their g and k sounds were velar like English. Unless there is a difference in pronunciation of those sounds that I haven't noticed.

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douglasboyle
September 04, 2013, 11:44 AM

All i know is i thought is would be easy. If i knew how much practice it takes maybe i would not have started. But maybe my approach is wrong. Or rather my expectations are. I should be happy for the fact that i can walk out this door and have conversations with people in china. I remember when i first got here this was absolutely a no goer. Even if i though i was cool with my 你好吗。i didnt know squat. Now when my girlfriend is on the phone with her friends speaking mandarin (cantonese i cant understand much) i know what they are talking about. Where as before i thought it was all bad because i didnt understand.

I heard that it takes 2000 class hours for fluency. Its comes under one of the hardest languages to learn.

What makes it hard for me are the many different accents around here. I am constantly told你的普通话这么标准 and unless the person im communicatiing with speaks to me like this its not as easy to understand. But im sure with more and more exposure it will al blend into one.

I have the approach that if you have understood me and i didnt butcher the sentence completly i dont want to be corrected. I will get it in time. Constant correction for me is more discouraging than anything else.

I love how people want to correct a minor mistake of mine in mandarin. Next thing there speaking to me in poor english where every word should be corrected. But if i understand what they are saying for me there is no need to correct them. If they/we are serious they or we will get it in time.

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Legless
September 04, 2013, 11:56 AM

"Next thing there speaking"

There = They're

:) Sorry - couldn't resist :)