Grammar information on ChinesePod and a question about word order/sentence structure.
doodlemonster1
August 08, 2009, 07:26 PM posted in General DiscussionI thought I'd just throw this out in the open but I'd really like to see more content on ChinesePod about grammar. I'm not sure what fellow Poddies will think be still being a Newbie myself, I think if I had had more help with grammar, then I might have progressed a bit quicker if I could put the vocab I had picked up into a sentence I could use and construct by myself (as opposed to "memorised"/"set" sentences. But don't get me wrong; there's nothing wrong with learning set phrases.) So all in all, I think ChinesePod do an amazing job covering just about every situation you could come across in your Chinese travels and more! I'd just like to see grammar help/exercises to put these lessons into practice. ^.^
So my other question is about sentence structure. Specifically, sentence structure containing "time phrases". What order would the words go in? Because I think normally (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm still a mere Newbie! lol) it goes Subject - Verb - Object. In other words something like 他 吃 汉堡包 would literally be He eats hamburgers without having to switch anything round. But I heard that sentence order is different when you include time phrases in a sentence? Is that right? Could someone clear this up for me and perhaps give me a general "rule" to use when constructing sentences using time phrases? Thank you! ^.^
EmmaLouise1
August 10, 2009, 05:24 PMHehe, thank you :) And by the way, this is my real account, was just using my other one for a few days while I was waiting for my Dad to come home from work and renew my subscription :) haha But he's back now so I can let my doodlemonster1 account to collect dust. Sorry for the confusion :S And I've got a monster I doodled as my avatar now to match my name :)
And thanks so much for the link; it'll be really useful to have an "outline" or guide to follow when constructing sentences. I think I'm exactly like you whereas I have to have some structure to follow and I can't just piece the logic together every single time. I think it'd drive me nuts otherwise! haha
And like you mentioned, thanks so much once again to the amazing staff at ChinesePod; those guys really do deserve a big pat on the back for all their hard work and dedication; especially when it comes to deciphering our posts! haha :D
lotsofwordsandnospaces
August 08, 2009, 09:59 PMI am all for a grammatical series. I keep buying books, and every book assumes a fairly high level of grammatical knowledge of English... which puts me at a distinct disadvantage (because I am Scottish :P).
I really need a technique that doesn't rely on my understanding of English (repetition?), or a really simple explanation taken pretty slowly.
Qing Wen does a lot of useful stuff, but I find it hard to look back at them and pick out lessons which answer my questions - but I assume that is where something like a guided plan comes into its own.
http://chinesepod.com/resources/grammar is completely under appreciated about here, and I hope when they finish the tones series, they do a grammar series!
rjberki - nice link!
doodlemonster1
August 08, 2009, 10:37 PM@lotsofwordsandnospaces - I totally agree with you! I've got a mini book on Chinese grammar and I've no idea what "topicalization" or a "cardinal" is! (Although I'd give my book some credit since it does have a
glossary of terms" but even still, is it that necessary to fill the book with English grammatical jargon when, to be honest, some of us haven't the foggiest what they're on about?!
And yeah, I'd agree with you about the Qing Wen stuff; it seems really useful but I either have trouble picking out lessons which are relevant to my question and the then the rest are way above my head!
So yeah, I'd like like the Grammar section developed a lot more since I think it'd make it even better! It's just very daunting for a Newbie learning a whole different way of writing and speaking without having to work out the grammar as well :/ Because in my earlier years of school, when I started learning French, they made it easy to copy and pick up the grammar patterns so when I started learning Spanish a few years back, I found it even easier because the grammar was pretty much identical and the same could be said for Italian as well (not sure about German though). It's just Chinese has some totally different grammar rules compared to European languages so I think it'd be really helpful to have a more developed grammar section here.
And @rjberki, thanks for the link! ^.^
doodlemonster1
August 08, 2009, 10:55 PMHi guys, I've just found a really good website on Chinese grammar:
http://www.brighthub.com/education/languages/articles/42645.aspx
It seems pretty reliable from what I can tell and it really explains things clearly and sets them out simply. I'd seriously recommend it to any Newbie. It starts with the most basic grammar and moves on to, what I'd assume to be, Elementary level. There's a second page at the bottom (just scroll down) in case you were wondering where the more challenging grammar was :P I needn't have bought my little grammar book now! lol Although I'd assume I'll need it when I get on to the more challenging stuff :/ or actually learn the proper terms in English first! lol
(You might have to copy and paste the link into a new browser window. Don't forget to include that pesky "x" that seems to have jumped a line from the rest of the link when copying! In other words, the end should read ".....42645.aspx".
changye
August 09, 2009, 03:14 AMUnfortunately, you can't learn Chinese grammar systematically and comprehensively here in Chinesepod. As someone said above, you definitely need to get a good (and thick) grammar book especially when you bocome an Intermediate learner of Mandarin.
Besides that, I recommend you get some grammar books featuring "frequently seen grammatical mistakes made by foreign learners". Also, having a good "synonym dictionary" is very helpful for Intermediate and above learners.
As for Chinese time words (时间词), such as 今天 and 刚才, maybe they are placed at the beginning of a sentence when you want to emphasize "time" or make "time" the topic of a talk, just like 今天我上街买东西 (Today, I go downtown shopping).
RJ
August 08, 2009, 08:08 PMDM,
take a look here
http://chinesepod.com/community/conversations/post/4107
I tried to create a general answer a while back. I still use it as a guide.
RJ
changye
August 09, 2009, 10:46 AMHi doodlemonster
Here are my translations.
- I leave in three hours
- 我再过三个小时就要离开。
- 我三个小时后就要离开。
- (I in three hours leave)
- I will see you in september
- 我打算九月份去见你。
- (I will in september see you)
- I eat bread everyday
- 我每天都吃面包。
- (I everyday eat bread)
paulinurus
August 10, 2009, 03:14 AMHi doodlemonster
Here's the "little formula pattern" that you're looking for which will help you to write simple, but grammatically correct, Chinese sentences.
Subject+adverb+preposition+verb+adjective+object.
Follow the above sequence. Start by using single words or simple phrases for each of the above components. Later, you can elaborate each component with more complex phrases or clauses.
When writing Chinese sentences, it will help if you start with the basic formula first, which is the same as in the English sentence.
subject + verb + object
then add the adverbs, adjectives, and prepositions words/phrases/claues to elaborate the sentence.
e.g.
我买车
我昨天买车 adverb added
我昨天买新的车。adjective added
我昨天在那个公司买新的车。prepositional phrase added.
changye
August 10, 2009, 03:20 AMHi paulinurus
I think this translation might be better than that.
我昨天在那家公司买了一辆新车。
paulinurus
August 10, 2009, 08:36 AMThanks Changye, I missed to mention that after writing down the meat of the sentence, we then have to know the other 'grammar details' such as the use of 了 and the use of classifiers to make the sentence grammatically correct. These little grammar details can be a chore to learn and to remember.
e.g
我三个月前在那家公司买了一辆新车。 Three months ago I bought a new car at that company.
我三个半月前在那家公司买了一辆新车。Three and a half months ago I bought a new car at that company.
Yet when it is years, there is no classifer needed:
我三年前在那家公司买了一辆新车。 Three years ago I bought a new car at that company.
我三年半前在那家公司买了一辆新车。Three and a half years ago I bought a new car at that company.
xiaophil
August 10, 2009, 09:43 AMdoodlemonster
I also like a little grammar to help me organize things in my head, yet like you I don't want to get lost in theory. Thus, recently I made some simple Chinese sentences that reflect different English tenses then Cpod's staff was nice enough to correct my mistakes.
The link to my post is here.
The examples won't explicitely tell you how to put sentences together, but I think if you look at them you should get an idea. (Be prepared to use a pop-up translator as there isn't any pinyin.)
Anyway, hope it can help you. Good luck.
PS: I dig your username.
doodlemonster1
August 09, 2009, 08:42 AMOkay, thanks :) I was just having a think, along with the help of my Chinese friend, and I came up with these sentences and I noticed a pattern:
- I leave in three hours
- 我在三时数离开
- (I in three hours leave)
- I will see you in september
- 我会在9月看到你
- (I will in september see you)
- I eat bread everyday
- 我吃每天的面包
- (I everyday eat bread)
So I can definitely see there's a pattern there, but I can't quite put my finger on it... :/
I guess if we 'labeled" a sentence, then it'd be something like this:
- 1(I will) 2(see you) 3(in september)
- 我会在9月看到你
- 1(I will) 3(in september) 2(see you)
Does that kinda make sense? I'm no grammar whizz so perhaps someone else could help us formulate a little formula pattern or something but at the moment, that "1,3,2" pattern seems to work. Perhaps it's kinda "Subject-Verb-Time Phrase" ? Where the subject is the pronoun or person talking then you have the verb (eat, leave, see) and then the time phrase (everyday, three hours, september). Is this kinda right...? :/
tvan
August 08, 2009, 07:50 PMDoodlemonster, this is not a definitive answer, as my sentence structure is atrocious. However, my understanding is that in a sentence such as the one above, you would place the time phrase between the subject and verb. 例如: 他每天早上十一点半吃汉堡包/Tā měitiān zǎoshàng chī hànbǎobāo/Every day at 11:30 a.m., he has a hamburger for lunch.
I think that's the best "general" answer. However, there are exceptions that I'll let others better qualified reply to.