Continue Your "Is China Scary" Political Debate here

Back to  technology.

I find it an interesting coincidence that  Bush jr's push to go to war in Iraq coincided with the fact that Saddam was about to aquire and deploy hundreds of gps jamming units from the soviets. He had 8(?), which were the first things hit by the stealth crews.  With the jammers running a cruise missle couldn't hit the target very well.  The next generation "unjammable" (yeah right) military guidance system was not due to come on line until (if memory serves) 2007.  George was sitting with thousands of weapons on the shelf about to have their "use by" date expire. Had he waited for cooler weather even a couple months, his toys would have been blind.

The above is based on several back page news articles in the Mpls. star trib in the weeks preceding and following the invasion.

so instead of having to wait years, and refit all his aging missles with new guidance, he just used them up.

bought new ones from . . . we know how that game goes.

Has anyone here read The Arms of Krupp?

Speaking of Vietnam, a lot of Americans I have met seem to forget that it's actually a country and talk of it solely as if it were a war their country once participated in.

I worked in Vietnam in the mid '90s for about six months, installing software and doing some training.

When I tell Americans now that I once worked in Vietnam their response is invariably, "But you're too young to have served in that!"

raspa says
4 hours ago

Well, reasonable people at the white house knew after a few months(-years?) that USA couldn't win in Vietnam (at least not this way, the goal of Hi CHi Minh being more political than military ) but weapons manufacturers lobbies are indeed powerful and made it last. at least it's what i learned from a historian specialised on VN, i don't claim it to be perfect truth (nothing is anyway). and of course it's more complex.. that's why everyone is fighting on a forum, there's no room for details and discussion..sorry for talking VN again..

So pete, just out of curiosity, what is the 'right thing' that the US is finally doing about global warming? Whatever they do it'll just be like shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic won't it?

Pete，i remember reading that, and others using it in conversation sometimes. but i've never 背下。i am now though, cheers.

regards that 'person', i've heard and read a little about him before. dislike is a rather flaccid description ;). 

Hi miantiao,

Indeed-- it's interesting to contrast Churchill's wisdom with Confucius'--

子曰：“吾十有五而志于学，三十而立，四十而不惑，五十而知天命，六十而耳顺，七十而从心所欲，不逾矩。

芮成钢 Rui Chenggang, an anchorman-propagandist whom I deeply dislike, has recently come up with a book whose title includes the wordplay 三十而励. The English subtitle is "Life Begins at 30."

pete，

churchill also made a very interesting statement, perhaps reflecting his own life. i can't quote it but i can paraphrase. he said thatto be an idealist at 20 is as it should be, but if one is still an idealist at 40, then he has learned nothing.

this statement reflects his knowledge of reality and the nature of contradiction. of course its subjective, but i agree.

global warming! now there is a can of worms!

Sounds cool!

Hi Henning,

All I can say is that it will be an event you'll remember!

Pete,
at the Horizon or at the Event Horizon?

:P

Hi henning and xiaophil,

Knowing both of your interests, there is another lesson on the horizon which you will surely both enjoy. I just translated it yesterday, and had a good chuckle as I did so. Hmm...what could it be? You'll just have to wait and see.

I'm never a big fan of quotes that are supposed to summarize an entire nation. But I do sometimes think of the words of the honorary U.S. citizen Winston Churchill, who said that you can always count on the Americans to do the right thing---after they've tried everything else.

At least on the issue of global warming, he may be painfully correct.

henning

I have another reason for you to like us--Germans are the largest ethnic group, 16.8%!  (Okay, maybe that isn't too important.)

Anyway, I will always have a special place in my heart for Germany because of Kraftwerk, which is probably related to my love for sci fi. 

ChinesePod... make an outer space series.  It would be the coolest move ever.

There was a quote I read decades ago about the US that I never forgot: Almost everything you hear about the US - be it bad or good - is usually true. But so is the opposite.

So far I found this simple statement over and over verified. This is a characteristic of the US that in my eyes still lets this nation stand out. The spectrum of opinions, life-styles, and behavioural patterns is much, much broader than anyplace else - and so is the tolerance for it. In Germany we have a lot more (often subliminaly imposed) conformity. And don"t get me started about what I saw in China.

There are lot"s of aspects that I definately do not like about the US. But the broadness of opinions is one of the reasons that will always make the US appear less scary to me than many other nations. (Besides that, of course, I also like the US a lot because of their attitude towards SciFi and their superior cerial products :)  ).

@tvan i ate hotpot, i dank 枸杞酒, i saw, i posted, i went to sleep. i woke up, the option had passed.

and looking at my above comment in the cold light of day. i see no problem with the content, only the forum to which it was posted. somethings are perhaps better left unsaid.

wouldn't want to hurt anybody's virtueous sensitivites.

mr magistrate, these are my statements in mitigation, i ask the court to take these into consideration when passing sentence.

aprilwhite

I really can't argue that America and China and other countries haven't done ‘scary' things.  Allow me to just add that we should be cautious about how we use this word.  Just like it is okay to attack somebody's idea/theory but not their character unless they cross a certain line, we shouldn't just casually call a country ‘scary' (unless you are directly threatened of course).  Such labeling may not necessarily mean that the person is purposely excluding any positive value in the country, but that is what it implies (at least to me).  Yes, you can make lists of things that are scary and then say, "Ergo, such-and-such country is scary," but that doesn't mean it is wise to do so.  Taking America as an example, I think I made it clear that I agree there is much to be critical of her, yet I have also seen plenty of good things. Furthermore, I am not fanatical, but I am a patriot.  Therefore, if someone seems to just want to make an un-nuanced blanket statement that comes at the expense of the country I love, that person can expect a few words from me.  As I said before, I can see that you have tried to be fair and I appreciate that you really try to back up your statements, so I harbor no ill will against you. I guess we will have to disagree on a few points and leave it at that.

@miantiao, is posting under the influence a deletable offense?

pleads guilty to one count of drink posting.

@tvan, didn't see any 'eroes, just people. milk 's in the fridge, sugar 's in the cupboard ,help yourself.

never played the drums.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy how's yer soul?" 
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll, 

i once knew a bloke. his father was a soldier, his grandfather was a soldier, his great grandfather was a soldier, this bloke decided enough. he grafted an existence playing football, but drank and smoked and fucked. he became a soldier.

like his progenitors he was sent overseas to kill. he killed. he killed children, who wanted to kill him, who wanted to kill anybody he was told to kill, much like the bloke. what was he doing there? was it his place to be there? killing people to protect people from being killed? such is the contradictory nature of killing. 

he hears others talk about killing, but have not killed. he laughs, he kills, he cries. he knows its all perfect. this is what he is and what others are and will be. he has seen the perfection in nature, the truth.

some now call him weak, he laughs, he tries not to kill, he weaps for the blind, and the pretentious.for he knows their contradictions are but natural, a reflection of his own, he celebrates. its perfect.

Exactly.  "Scary" may have a bad connotation but so does "weak".  I think more than one person here is guilty of being overly defensive. 

Hell yeah!  If an army ain't scary (not my exact choice of words), what's the point.  Nobody was afraid of China in the 1800's and look where that got them. 

xiaophil,

I think if your mother were pointing a gun (let alone 1300 missiles) at you then you'd think she was scary.

"If you are going to switch targets like that, could you please indicate who you are addressing each time. Otherwise everyone gets confused."

"Targets"?  desluo929, you make it sound like I was attacking people.  I was only responding to other people's comments.  I don't know why you would have been confused: you know what you wrote and didn't write.  You don't think it was rude for miantiao to accuse me of being a child?  And what did he mean when he said I wasn't "genuine"?

I only just found this thread again by going through community/conversations/posts.  I had assumed it had been completely deleted. 

Hi sebire,

Yes, it takes all kinds to make the world go round. And of course I can't speak for everyone.

My own thinking is that

In the end, the love you take

Is equal to the love you make.

 

Pete, maybe for some people money and toys makes for a happy and meaningful life? I know someone that sees his bank account as like a high score on an arcade game - and he loves it. He has everything he could want and more, and seems perfectly happy, yet would be bored to death if he wasn't chasing a yet higher score.

哈哈，也许那个冰人/雪人不太善良终究

或者，可以用很多雪人这样的兵马俑。怎么说？？

I must say that regardless of of how the American military is labeled, i.e. good or bad, I'm tired of paying for it.  (Although, while living in China, I guess I'm not.)  I can think of a place I would prefer that money going, namely my pocket.  If China does get the much coveted status of superpower someday, and military intervention somewhere is necessary, I hope it will be her burden and not America's for once.

I mean, I'm not hoping for war, but I think you guys get my drift.

Whoops, I was going to write this in Chinese.  Bad 小Phil.

hey tal, now thats perfect mate :) . the process though is not pretty.

Give me love
Give me love
Give me peace on earth
Give me light
Give me life
Keep me free from birth
Give me hope
Help me cope, with this heavy load
Trying to, touch and reach you with,
heart and soul

Changye, I think that making snow statues qualifies as a "good army," no matter which standard you use.  Well, except maybe that one about winning battles; unless there's something snow statues you haven't told us...

Aah, if only armed forces everywhere could just spend their time making snow statues and playing snowballs with children. Err... that might not be possible in Iraq and Afghanistan of course! lol.

Let's just all sing together now:

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too...  

Hi pete

I hate to say this, but actually making snow statues for Sapporo Snow Festival in Japan has been one of the important tasks of Japan Self Defense Forces until recently, hehe. Some say that it's a sort of military training for battles in snowy regions. Otherwise, you can't use armed forces for a sightseeing event!

http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/travel/sapporo_snow_festival.htm

http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e5311.html

i agree, but that is my subjective viewpoint, the way i see it is that people in general will always continue to better their own predicament  or place in life.

the great philosophers and prophets mostly saw the need for this, whilst at the same time trying to deny or defy it.

if i dont do my job properly(protect my place) and do not have ambition for promotion(expand my place) then someone will take my place(extinction)

yes changye, and nature punishes what it doesn't like, much suffering brought about a new world order and the disbandonment of natural actions seen as evil only to give rise to a continuation of such natural actions which are seen as good! conflict and killing continues. contradictory, but perfect.

evil-good, how long has humanity suffered from frontal lobe migraines thinking about this? how many of our religious and philosophical texts have been devoted to this subject, of what is the essence of humanity and how to control it in favour of what is most universally seen as good? two opposing poles, but the same.

what may be  evil in one age may be good in another. yesterday's evil may be todays good, what is good now may be tomorrows evil, yesterday's good may be todays evil, and will todays evil become tomorrows good?

one's daughter gets raped, does he forgive, or does he seek revenge? both actions are natural. which is evil? which is good? they are both both, and his intentions will be largely guided by his nature. if he revenges his daughter, he will be punished, but others that impose such will also do so according to their subjective perception of good and evil. the rapist is he evil or is he good? he is both, he is evil  perpetrating such crime, but he is following his own nature, so he is good according to his nature, he will be punished according to the same principles of the father. and that is why forgivenss and revenge are one in the same.

we embrace the subjective good of our age and oppose the subjective evil.

is china evil? is the us evil? are they both good and evil at the same time?

Hi changye,

I am not an expert, but I believe the Japanese military has made some valuable contributions in the Persian Gulf and after the Southeast Asian typhoon. Indeed, a military does not always have to be fighting to be considered useful.

The ancient Roman army arguably did more for the Empire by building the road network than it did by battling "barbarians" ;-0

Hi miantiao

ignorance cannot be said to be the cause of the world's current previous or continuing ills. .. rather it is competion for recources, wealth, and power.

You make a very interesting case. I define ignorance to include people's self-defeating quest for more money, toys and prestige. This is an ignorance of the things that really matter, and that make a happy, meaningful life.

Hi tvan

Thanks to your concept about "evil", I can "proudly" say that Japanese army (Japan Self-Defence Forces) is not "evil", at least in the past 55 years, because it has never killed a man since its establishment in 1954. Anyway, I think that losing a war is not necessarily a bad thing, because you can have a "not-evil" army such as Japan SDF, which doesn't seem to be diligent in their "duties", haha.

Re: the idea of the U.S. rebuilding countries for its own benefit, there was a harmless little novel written called "The Mouse that Roared" wherein a small, impoverished East European country declared war on the United States with the hopes of getting rebuilt like Germany and Japan.  It was made into a movie starring that ersatz East European, Peter Sellers.

Btw, kudos to desluo929 for setting up the thread and to Pete for taking the time to copy previously deleted comments to it.

It's interesting that in the discussion above,  the definition of a "good" or "evil" government seems to rest on how that government treats other governments, not on how it treats its own citizens.  I guess in this regard countries such as (Saddam Hussein's) Iraq, North Korea, and Burma are good international citizens.

Using this concept to answer Changye's question, the PLA is indubitably Evil.  (Note the capital "E.")  It attacked the Korea and Vietnam.  However, killing students at Tianamen... eh, ya do what ya gotta do.

Hi akii

Your comment just reminds me of an opinion I heard before. It goes like this :

People's Liberation Army is a "good/benign" army, but other countries' armies are all "bad/evil" armies.

Do you agree with this?

changye,
well it sure didn"t feel like a joke. Just keep your dog away from cold meat dishes on open display without any visible cooling - regardless of the body part.

It was really tasting different - but not necessary bad (another problem was that I am not sure how it was supposed to taste and besides me only my 4year old ate a small bit of it - and he was lying flat for two days streight，also).

just a few thoughts:

ignorance of the law doesn't excuse the criminal, he still pays his debt.

ignorance of nature's laws result in the same consequences.

those in power are well educated and informed people, but follow their own ideals of a perfect world.

the idea of a well educated and informed middle class bringing about utopia is flawed. people are willing to defend and preserve what they have worked for, and who they love. they are also willing to swallow  propaganda to meet this end. this is a law of nature. 

a precedent of the magnitude unseen before in history will only change this.

hegemony is in the best interests of the world. the question then is which hegemonic system is best. by hegemony, i mean political and economic and welfare sytems, not cultural or national, and herein lies the challenge. to create consensus whilst breaking a law of nature. to break this law may require much suffering and does in fact reveal the contradictory nature of nature, by breaking the law we will be following it. nature abhors stagnancy and punishes severely.

how can we create a world with a fair and just system for all humanity without some form of concensus, read hegemony? the UN is a first step, but currently it is largely ineffective. it needs to be more inclusive particularly in the security council.

we are perhaps at an infant stage, at least i'd like to think so. most ppl don't enjoy watching others suffer, and abhore violence, but they are also willing to kill to protect what they have or what they believe in.

in my view, ignorance cannot be said to be the cause of the world's current previous or continuing ills. the path of human existence reveals this quite starkly. rather it is competion for recources, wealth, and power.

such is the contradictory nature of ignorance.

Hi henning

Let me ask you a question. Is this a sort of joke, or are you serious? If the latter, I and my chubby dog won't eat pig ears from now on.

I am currently recovering from that Pig-ear-induced food poisoning I got in Beidaihe

akii, how do you know what I have and haven't studied?  How do you know I'm not a professional economist?  Probably because it's one of the last things in the world I'd want to do!

Anyway, you still haven't provided any solid foundation for your ridiculous claims.  I'm all for freedom of speech, having your own opinion, yada yada yada...but at least back it up with something remotely credible.

Wow! I am currently recovering from that Pig-ear-induced food poisoning I got in Beidaihe so I had the time to go through this and the original thread.

As changye highlighted out perfectly in his post above, there is a really enriching variety of opinions here - adding up perfectly to what I have heard during the last two weeks (The outcomes of the great leap forward and the cultural revolution? Of course, just results of the foreign politics of the evil west!).

Actually, in my opinion, the original question is wrong. Each group or social cluster is scary if it is tightly closed up (including governments, cults, or even web communities). Only by the means of continous interaction and cooperation with non-group members the "evilness" fades.  

(Where "evil" is actually in most cases nothing but a rigid definition of "inside" and "outside" that is usually based on arbitrary and blurry concepts like "nation", "religion", "shared myths" or "ethnecity").

But well, real men hunt in packs.

"Good" and "evil" are inappropriate words to use in discussing governments. They ignore or conceal the complexities of reality. It is much more useful to examine the causes and effects of individual government actions. Who benefits, and who suffers?

Some government actions have the effect of benefitting a small group of actors whose interests are not those of the people they supposedly represent. Some government actions are apparently altruistic, and yet would better be described as "win-win" situations (ex: the Marshall Plan, the G.I. Bill). Some governments, for a variety of domestic and international reasons, are able to plan further in advance than others. It is utterly beside the point to damn governments as "evil," or to praise them as "good." This is the sort of tidy and wildly incomplete analysis that has led to great suffering in Iraq, to name just one example.

Regarding the Vietnam war, the vast majority of American involvement was over just ten years, from the Gulf of Tonkin incident till the US withdrew in April 1975. As Calkins pointed out, US forces won almost every battle they fought. But the war was not winnable with only military means. Because it lacked cultural awareness, an understanding of the appeal to the Vietnamese of Communism and nationalism, and a clear definition of "victory" (body counts? villages taken? social reform?) the American war effort (like the French before it) was doomed, regardless of battlefield successes.

Ignorance causes far more suffering than any idealized form of "evil."

Hi akii

Wow, I didn't know that at all. Thanks for your nice opinion. It's very impressive.

Is the Chinese government evil? I would say definitely not. I think the Chinese government is working for the betterment of the Chinese people. This is in contrast to the US and UK where those governments are working for the increased profits of a select few.

I have copied akii's post below and deleted the others in the "Is America/Nuclear Weapons/Lyndon Johnson Scary" debate. I will continue to delete non-lesson related comments in that thread.

*****

Hi changye，

I guess if I lived in Japan I might be more scared of N.Korea, but on a global scale the US is definitely the biggest cause of war and suffering.

Is the Russian government evil? Maybe. But again its influence is, since 1991, pretty localised.

Is the Chinese government evil? I would say definitely not. I think the Chinese government is working for the betterment of the Chinese people. This is in contrast to the US and UK where those governments are working for the increased profits of a select few.

calkins - I suggest you study the world economy before criticising.

xiaophil the US was fighting N.Vietnam for 26 years. Come on man, they couldn't win?

aprilwhite

You asked, "Does 'scary' have a negative connotation to you? "  Yes, it is quite negative.  Tell your mother she is scary, and I think you will know what I mean.  But I won't argue the semantics other than that. 

As for your assertion that "Wars are scary so any country that has the capability to fight is scary."  Almost all countries have this ability, so they are all scary by your definition.  This means the word 'scary' loses its meaning in this sense.  If you mean that the more capable a country is of creating war, the more scarrier it is.  I can see your point, but it does seem to me that any country that is large and prosperous will almost definitely have a strong military.  It is sad that you think that we are almost required to call a country that is large and prosperous 'scary'.  But again, semantics.

By the way, Afghanistan isn't unique.  America also went on the offensive against Japan after Pearl Harbor.

I don't mind if you or anyone else is critical or America or even anti-American, but I just don't like weak arguments that come at my country's expense because others might actually believe them.  That being said, I can see that you think you were clear, though.  I still think that your reasoning is a bit strange and unclear, but at least I get your drift.  I can accept that.

Okay, I'm going to try to exit this conversation for good (or maybe I will come back, but in Chinese), so sorry if I don't reply to any other comments.  It was fun, but now it is distracting.

regarding my above diatribe i'd like to add something.

the people that truly understand this truth are the povery stricken and the rich and powerful. bleeding heart pontificators and theorists using cultural relativist post-strucuralist decontructionist claptrap are only denying reality.

these ideas are used as a pretence for much suffering. but then again,humans being humans.  the suffering bought about from human ideological frailties and contradictions bring about change.

to eat the meat you have to kill the cow, but the cow must first have progeny to allow for further use.  to grow the rice you have to cultivate the land, and rotate your fields. to preserve one's place, one must be prepared to defend it and expand it.

its all scary, but its all perfect.

Hold on a minute aprilwhite,

Your comments here are directed at 2 different people. I know I wrote the first line you quoted, but not the next two.

If you are going to switch targets like that, could you please indicate who you are addressing each time. Otherwise everyone gets confused.

april

chicken or the egg, i like being a big kid april, i have no pretensions. what you see is what you get.

control of technology. what is going on today in the world? what are the motivations of restricting nuclear weapons and power generation in certain countries? what is the real motivations behind non-nulcear proliferation agreements? i suggest the altruistic reason is nothing more than disinfromation.

its there to preserve and protect ideological viewpoints and certain ways of life. the long term goal is of course political and economic hegemony, nothing wrong with that, all 'scary' powers in the past do exactly this.

the point being of course, it depends on your own views as to who is scarier, like april/adam has stated.

which way of life and what kind of society do poddies want to live in? their answers will reflect who they view as more 'scarier'.

the only creatures on this earth that are not contradictory are animals fish birds etc, they live according to their dao, they have no choice, they are instinctual. humans on the other hand....

to deny conflict is to deny your humanity.how to manage conflict and avoid war is the problem. but wars are inevitable. having the technological and economic clout to coerce change is what scary powers do, its their dao. humans being humans. perfect.

"Perhaps you don't get it."

All I saw was "Continue the debate here."  It wasn't very clear what you meant.  I tried clicking on the sentence and nothing happened; I didn't notice at first that the "here" was red.  Anyway, I did refer back to the lesson to keep ot on topic.

"would appreciate next time if you were more genuine"

I would have appreciated you having been less rude. 

"you've done your homework"

No, I've probably just lived longer than you, which is ironic as you were the one accusing me of being a child.

Aprilwhite continued to post in the other discussion board after Pete's warning. I have copied here post, and am pasting it here. I have suggested again that she continue her discussion here.

Here is her post:

xiaophil,
I think I was quite clear. Wars are scary so any country that has the capability to fight is scary.I mentioned that some of the wars that the U.S. fought in were ones in which they invaded, ie U.S. soil was not attacked before hand. Afghanistan is a unique case: the U.S. invaded Afghanistan but the U.S. had also been attacked by Al Queda which was operating out of Afghanistan at the time.
You'll notice in a later post I mentioned that criticizing the U.S. is viewed as "anti-American". This is, unfortunately, a way to quell debate. I think the lesson is guilty of the same thing: the Western media is accused of "exagerating" and being "negative" when all they might be doing is reporting the news. People are warned to not follow the American media for fear of being "misled". Again, the analogy is quite clear.
Does "scary" have a negative connotation to you? What if I were to have said "powerful" in the military sense? That's pretty much the same thing. I'm reminded of the line from Iron Man: "They say the best weapon is one you never have to fire. I prefer the weapon you only need to fire once. That's how dad did it, that's how America does it, and it's worked out pretty well so far." That was before Tony Stark came to realise that the other side can also acquire the same weapons.

april

great to see you're not a malthusian.

would appreciate next time if you were more genuine. you've done your homework and deliberately provoked a person who you well know will respond exactly how you've planned. 

look mate well done! but it doesnt really take much to get me going.

the world is normal, it'll be like this for millenia, i can't see evolution making much of a difference over the next few thousand years. the media and the information age has in my view made propaganda an even more useful weapon. the west uses mass disinformation as opposed to censorship.

perhaps genetically designed humans or even virtual intelligence may appear in the next few hundred years. but there will have to be some sort of conflict to control the technology.

there is no escaping competition and resultant conflicts. its all as it should be. perfect.

regarding the use of disinformation. john pilger is worth reading, or watching.