葬礼 zang4li3 (funerals)
bodawei
December 14, 2010, 02:38 PM posted in General Discussion在中国葬仪的习俗因小数民族不同而不同，比如藏族有天葬，水葬， 土葬还有火葬。 在天葬中尸体切开一百零八块，然后鸟来吃。
I saw a lesson topic suggestion but couldn't find it on the thread (this thread is now so long the links don't work for me.)
lujiaojie
像很欢快的最后的送别会！这个想法真不错！
bodawei
Hi zhenlijiang
I don't know anything about the Buddhist rites, apart from the matters I have alluded to above - and what I read in the novel 天葬 (also made into a film; I haven't seen the film). I am looking at 遗书全文内容 (the contents of what we in the West would call a will) at present with my tutor - discussing the guy's instructions .. 后事之类的。 In this case he says 就由政府处理得了。。 因为他这个人是从来不迷信的。
I have also been at a temple when what I assume was a funeral ceremony was in process. Watching from a distance I was surprised how private it was compared to what we do in the West. There seemed to be just three members of the bereaved family, standing with 50 or 60 chanting monks on either side - it was being conducted inside one of those rooms that house the photos of the deceased.
zhenlijiang
嗯 ... 火葬之后没有尸体，残存的就是骨灰。这个差重大我觉得。(Not wholly unlike the difference between being served meatball soup and a soup with a whole rooster in it, beak, comb and all? Even though all are equally unalive ...)
I would be dead then of course, but would not like for guests to suffer through a miserable, dead afternoon affair in my honor!
The 遗书（also see 遗嘱） you're looking at is of someone deceased? How did you come by such material? What interesting lessons you are having off-CPod.
后事--great word, another way, a euphemism, to refer to funerals.
I suppose rituals and ornamentation are there to comfort the living. It comforts me, to look at the beautiful old wood and imposing statue of the deity, the polished lacquerware, gold trimmings and purple brocades. Just as some churches are better than others, some temples are much better than others. There's a lot I don't like about going to my father's 老乡 for these affairs, but I do like the temple.
We're each given sutra books to follow along and chant with the priest during these Buddhist ceremonies. They're written in 漢字 of course, with phonetic notations for the Japanized (sorry about this terminology, it's probably all wrong) sounds. Ever since I began studying Chinese I have secretly been reading (can't keep up though, I still read much too slowly) them in Chinese, while mouthing the Japanized sounds aloud along with everyone. Someday, when I can read at that pace, I feel like I will have a deeper understanding of the sutras than anyone there. Doing that is something I secretly look forward to, especially with ceremonies for the anniversary of someone's death--the occasion often not very sorrowful to begin with.
bodawei
Ha ha - discussion on this thread is much more interesting than I thought it would be! Zhenlijiang you have quite the turn of phrase. And you have given this much more thought than I have. I am reaching the age when I should show more interest!
The 'will' I refer to is published on the Internet as the case involves something of a famous case. It is part of Chinese folklore as when the person in question passed on there was nation-wide publicity. There was a great deal of sympathy expressed and the documents in question were widely read - I am learning about the circumstances with my tutor. However I won't go into it more here - if you are interested could you PM or email me?
zhenlijiang
Hi Bodawei, if you're happy to let your family do as they feel best you don't need to think about this. From recent experience (not just in my family) I feel the need to leave instructions, and a memory device containing the photo I choose for my 遗像 (this is actually very important, not because I'm silly and vain). I may have spent a bit too much time this year thinking about it though!
The other thing, how I arrived at the non-burial, no-grave option for myself--we face another urban issue in Japan now, related to nuclear families and the aging population. What to do about graves? Who will take care of the family grave, which in many cases is located far from where the only (fast-aging) kin live? If you have no children, you are last in line, there will be no one, once you are gone. Then what? Many families who 2-3 generations back relocated to the cities from rural areas have only weak ties with the temples back in the 老乡. If you don't really have ties with the temple that's another reason maintaining the traditional family grave there seems only to be a burden.
More and more, we are reconsidering the unquestioning respect for old customs and traditional ways, deciding that they are outdated, no longer making sense in our lives. Many of us have simply accepted them for so long, and are no longer happy to do so; we want choices. We want to be the Martha Stewart of our own family deaths (* a Sex and the City reference)! We have begun exploring what acceptable new options there are. New markets, opportunities for business.
lujiaojie
没错，现在该好好地活。我从小就害怕死，但正因为人不知道自己哪天会死，可能年轻的时候也可能很老的时候，所以活着的每一天都要开心，都要努力追求心中所想。
zhenlijiang
啊我弄错了吧。“得+补语”一定要用来说已经过去的事情，不可以说“现在该活得好”，是吗？谢谢你的批改。
每一天还要向你周围的人表达出来你感谢他们。对我来说，这是不那么容易的事 ...
bweedin
December 14, 2010, 08:59 PMThis is off topic, but the 繁體字 character for 脏 is 髒 and I didn't even know how to say funeral in Chinese, so this helped me remember something I already knew, and learn a new character. ok, sorry. continue. . .
zhenlijiang
Oh I did not know this! How macabre.
bweedin
yeah when I would write 髒，I used to think to myself 骨，卝，死，开 but NOW I can simply think 骨，葬
with these 漢字，the more you know the easier it gets!
不好意思，繼續吧。
JasonSch
December 15, 2010, 12:30 AMActually, we have a lesson coming out soon that has to do with this topic. It doesn't cover the details of the funeral itself, but rather, is about talking about death and consoling people. Keep your eyes open for it. Maybe we could make a continuation about the actual funeral process in the future.
pretzellogic
Jason, thanks for your feedback. We could use more words in Chinese to console people. But thanks to the cpod lessons below, we do know how to say things like "thank you for your consolation", or "i'm fine now". I am not trying to hijack this thread, but I was really hoping for additional insight around the death/dying/burial process itself, some of the customs:
1) so that we could learn the vocabulary around the customs
2) so that we are aware of what to do and say in context.
•Qing Wen - Saying Sorry
•Qing Wen - Sorry and Thank You
http://chinesepod.com/lessons/seeking-comfort/dialogue
toianw
December 15, 2010, 03:54 PMNot very Buddhist, but I remember reading about this some time ago.
zhenlijiang
The bereaved find solace in numbers, take warmth from the presence of many mourners gathering around them, whether they knew the deceased personally or are there to express sympathy for the family. It's comforting too to know that the person you lost matters to many people, sometimes in ways you didn't know about.
So the focus on 热闹 is understandable. And I tend to think of funerals like parties (some are much better than others)--though I don't think they have to involve partying. I guess strippers were one of the limited attractions available in such rural areas.
As well as ordering an end to the practice, officials have also said residents can report "funeral misdeeds" on a hotline, earning a reward for information.
Ahh rewards are attractive too, if money is very tight ...
zhenlijiang
December 14, 2010, 06:34 PMBodawei it isn't you, they're currently not working for me either, and not just in the very long threads.
This is a good topic. I'm particularly interested in the arranging and attending aspects of an "urban" funeral in China today. Most funerals we will attend in Japan will be Buddhist (I've also attended some at churches), and for many city dwellers, especially younger people living alone, that is just about the only time we practice our Buddhism in any way. So we end up consulting books, websites and asking people about what's appropriate--many taboos, many areas to make mistakes or come across as being less than appropriately respectful in the eyes of those more familiar with such customs. I imagine what's expected in China will be different from in Japan, and would like to know what they are.
我自己火葬之后呢——现在希望的是被撒骨灰。希望有一晴天，亲人在港口笑脸团聚。一个要带骨灰罐，一个要带我自己挑的，照得最好看的遗像。各自随便带一朵花儿来配我。一行很热闹地乘（包租的）观光船，放音乐，跳跳舞，谈往事，互相抱着肩膀拍很多照，把我的骨灰亲手交给大海，挥手告别。游览湾内一周之后，大家大概去附近的老地方喝一杯吧。气氛始终很开朗，很热情。这是我的理想。
I think now I want my ashes cast in the ocean near where I grew up. My family and friends could make a party of the cruise and hopefully that day the wind will be mild and the water calm, it will be a close, relaxed gathering filled with laughter and smiles.
Mmm, I really need to write my will (another lesson suggestion I seconded) ...