Help with a chinese name

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Well，Lili = 丽丽 and Elizabeth = 伊丽莎白 so maybe。。。

丽丽白 = Lì​lì​bái​

http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddict&wdrst=0&wdqb=%E4%B8%BD%E4%B8%BD

http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddict&wdrst=0&wdqb=elizabeth

I think so, it is very oral. What you find with such oral language is that there is no clear agreement on how it is written; some of these expressions are written in two or three different ways. I'm going to double check on my characters before I commit it to 'heard it on the street' (if that does not sound too much like a contradiction!)

That's my 逻辑 luo1ji2 (logic).

Bodawei this 花生 seems 'heard it on the street'-worthy to me! No?

哦，不好意思，我写有一点错了，哈哈。

我改了一点儿。。

应该写’臂，'arm'的意思。 碧和臂声音一样，都是'bi4'.

花生hua1sheng1 (fashion!)

句子英语说： the trunk is red, the arms are black, the rabbits are yellow and black. Fashionable!

红地儿的，是吗？ Sorry Bodawei, mystified again! 碧是黑色 is poetic--reads to me like "How Black the Blue-green". What is this 碧? And 花生 (my dictionary gives me only peanut)? Did you mean 花哨?

躯干是红色，碧是黑色，兔子是黑色和黄色，很花生！

Bodawei, aha, 明白了.

Really? As in, you're going to be seen in it around your neighborhood? 是什么颜色的呢？

Hi Zhenlijiang

'I'm mystified now. 把冬帽衫上兔子买了 --??'

I just bought a hoodie with der rabbit on it. Getting in early for 2011 Feb 04. Three rabbits actually, one on horn, one on cymbals, and one on the drums; calling in the new year. It has 吉祥 ji2xiang2 on it.

Hey xiaoliang

I look forward to hearing Christine's family experience with naming too .. most Chinese people I talk to are happy to discuss their names (and childrens' names), but tell her thanks very much anyway!

And sorry to be obscure - I'm still trying to understand it myself.

Well it's Bodawei and me, hehe. We like talking. Thanks for being a gracious host XiaoLiang!

And yes that would be super, if Christine could share that with us.

I've read this conversation, but I'm really not sure what you're all on about :-) However, Christine has promised she'll give you an answer as to her family's naming traditions if that'll help.

I'm mystified now. 把冬帽衫上兔子买了 --??

On further reflection, I guess you could also argue that Japanese feel no 科学-迷信 conflict because the traditional thinking does not have as strong a hold on people's lives as it does in China. Examples such as actually preventing a marriage from taking place for a whole year. As I said, we have bad/good years and days also, and I think many of us observe those to the extent that we would delay a significant move such as building a new home or starting a business until a better year. I think with things like marriage and having children, in Japan people are more flexible (with our shrinking, aging population, we'd better be!). Maybe if we find out it's not the most auspicious time, we'll look for ways to secure protection and carry the 'project' out safely, or just plain ignore the "bad" info and choose to believe in the natural, compelling forces that brought the people together in the first place (now this is starting to sound superstitious actually), rather than actually postpone. And it isn't really that there is no superstition in Japan, or no superstitious people of course. I was thinking of customs. ** Actually, 1966 was a year in which fewer babies were born--you can see the dent in graphs--in Japan. It was a 'fire horse' year, that comes around once every five cycles (60 yrs). As recently as then, a female child born under the fire-horse sign was considered undesirable. So enough people avoided giving birth that year to cause the dent. Again, this was during a period of high growth for Japan, the population not yet aging or dwindling. The next time that sign comes around, I'm sure it will pass unobserved. But so I concede that this behavior can be described as having a basis in superstition. Even then, it doesn't give rise to 科学-迷信 conflicts in us. Again, I think it's about being aware of our fear and inability of us humans to determine our own fates. **

I suppose such tenacious beliefs in bad years and bad days in China so as to actually delay and postpone moves would be seen as defeaters, hindrances, to development and business and so the government would want to discourage it. In China it always balances out though doesn't it, with pragmatism?

Finally, Bodawei, you're immersed in your environment in China, living there, hearing locals speak every day. You pick up bits of their 说法 too. It's natural that you speak like that, adopt the language, with the people you associate with in China. So I understand, among them you say 西方, you say 迷信, there is no communication problem. But again, a mixed group comes to the CPod boards and many of us are not in China. I presume when someone uses English here that they're speaking English. I have no way of knowing when, if ever, Chinese terms written in English translated form are getting mixed in. Why not write the hanzi, rather than a word that looks only like English, when you do use such terms here (it's OK! this is ChinesePod!)? There would be more clarity, less confusion that way. I think it might be easier for people to have interesting discussions on cultural differences that way. This one was interesting for me though, thanks!

'I have loads of superstitious practices, some I'm not even aware of.'

Nice one hiewhongliang. :) All this just reminded me of a book I read maybe in the 1970s (annoyingly I can't remember the title) that discussed a whole range of seemingly unscientific practices around the world and ran a feasible scientific explanation for them all. Looking back, these 'practices' may have been more things that didn't happen in the country of the author. I think the book was authored in the US.. (This was the 70s, and there must have been a lot of people interested in this kind of debate then, I know I was.) I think that it was trying to argue that all cultures should be respected, something that is more mainstream now. Although it was criticised by some at the time as cultural relativism. For example, the practice of eating or banning certain foods in different cultures, say the prohbition on pork in cultures in hot sandy deserts - these behaviours and others were all 'rationalised'. Because my generation loved for these kind of things to be rationalised.

I wonder how the Chinese people read this book - were they equally interested in these arguments at the time?

I have loads of superstitious practices, some I'm not even aware of. As the saying goes: A baby can't wait until he understands breathing before he starts to breath.

I'm just breathing until this weird life starts to make sense...

我刚才把冬帽衫上兔子买了！ 冬帽衫?? (是hoodie的意思?? 我不一定)

I can see how I may have been seen to be mixing up rituals and traditions with superstitions. And you have highlighted the distinction. Some Chinese friends will actually point to some practice/belief and say it is 'unscientific'. I was not necessarily making that judgement myself; not here at least. And then there are the 骗子, perhaps pretending to draw on tradition but being motivated by greed. Thanks for your reflections on this - I have learnt a lot.

Hi Bodawei, yes point well taken. I remember now becoming dimly aware of a "科学 or 迷信" criterion in China, yes of course 迷信 being 不好的. We don't have that in Japan. We don't see those customs as being at odds with science or whatever and therefore needing to be abandoned. Of course, our traditional thinking is not at all identical with China's, though we have a lot in common too.

Since you bring them up, areas of medicine, and diet as it relates to ailments and health (Chinese traditional thinking 中医学、東洋医学 is generally highly respected, and has loyal followers in Japan), are different; in these areas there is quite a bit of discourse about 科学 VS 迷信, particularly I think in relation to things like cancer and fertility, where you have many quacks and liars swindling desperate people who will grab at any promise of treatment.

I guess I was mildly surprised to see in your comment 'well educated, well read' and 'studied in the West for years' given as a contrast point to keepers of traditional Chinese thinking. Seemed a bit ... missionary-like. But as you always say so, I know when (do I dare say) Westerners find such differences in China that you recognize culture, and not some area China is deficient or behind in.

Also I may have overreacted to 'superstition' because we have just been practicing rituals and going to shrines and buying new amulets and things like that to mark the new year and our resolutions and hopes for it. These acts are not out of superstitiousness. They are a way of coming clean on what you want and hold dearest to you, of representing yourself truthfully to the universe.

Hi Zhenlijiang

That is very well put and I particularly like your personal take on it from experience in your own country.

Re: my use of 'superstition' - okay, it is my translaton here, but many Chinese people, friends, and people I meet, use the word 迷信 or say 'superstition' in English in reference to these things that we have been talking about. It raises its head quite often, volunteered by the Chinese themselves. And of course the government makes reference to practices it regards as 迷信 (disapprovingly - to some extent this is behind the way medicine is now practiced in China, a kind of blend of Chinese and non-Chinese practices). So I was really just repeating what I have heard, rather than putting a disapproving Australian slant on it. Even the person I refer to above (discussing wedding plans) talked about 'superstitions'. (Of course what they mean may be different to my understanding of the English word - in Australia it does have a 不好的 meaning but in China I am not entirely sure. For some Chinese people it is almost a point of embarrassment. Like one might say 'I would get married in March, except my grandmother says that is impossible - she is so superstitious' (laughs).

On 'bad' days, a good friend does say it is superstition, but still has it on his mobile phone; I can ask him: 'so is today a good or a bad day?' And he looks it up, laughs, and says 'but I don't believe it'. :)

On questions of health, medicine and food: this is where I see the old Chinese ways (I won't say superstitions) most deeply ingrained, resistent to non-Chinese beliefs. Which I mostly applaud, even if I don't understand them. I am beginning to believe some of them myself.

It's informative enough in itself, I meant to say, for us foreigners to hear one individual Chinese person's take on such things. In this case I suspect it's just as much about nostalgia (I reckon she's in her mid- to late 40s) and the multi-dimensional migrated-to-HK-Chinese emotional relationship with the mainland, as it is a political view.

Bodawei, somehow I don't think that people will look at something like 族谱 as hocus pocus in any case, whether or not their family is still practicing the tradition. In reality, with the one-child policy, if you have a daughter there is no one to name according to that tradition. That daughter may also only have female cousins.

I was simply sharing the remark about Chinese traditions and the Cultural Revolution made by my born-and-raised-in-HK tutor. It is educational enough for us foreigners to hear the way one individual Chinese chooses to see and tell it. I know she doesn't speak for 1.3+ billion, and I have no assertion or opinion either way.

On another point, as an Asian raised with certain deeply ingrained customs, the word "superstition" used like that is an issue for me. It strikes me as misguided, or judging without being culturally informed--not that you are. I don't know well about the Chinese thinking on good and bad years, but I can relate to it. I know our thinking about good and bad years and days, and don't consider it superstition. It's more about being constantly aware of and showing our fear (respect) for higher powers, acknowledging that humans can not determine their own fate and fortune just by taking control (of what we can). I'm afraid I'm not explaining this very well, but what it really is is showing the absolute best effort that we humans can, so that heaven may help us in our endeavors and allow our humble wishes to be realized. It's just an extension of hard, honest work (and to people who think that way, bribing or lying and cheating, if you think you have to to get what you want) and virtuous living. Of earnestness. It's not like heathens needing rescuing by Christian missionaries and educators!

Well yes the 文化大革命 can be blamed for breaking many tradtions, and it seems that a whole generation missed out on the stories. (Some families really have made a break from traditions.) But thinking about it, there is nothing to stop valuable tradtions being revived except the will to do it. (Some traditions may not be worth reviving - society moves on. This happens in my country and I sure that it does in your country.) The reality is that Chinese people now make choices about tradtions, and many still follow the old ways. Many others think that it is just hocus pocus. And most people are a mix of these two positions. It is remarkable (just to take one example) that thousands of young couples who are well educated, and well read, and perhaps studied overseas for years (in other words those who you might expect to be wary of superstitions and old traditions) are this year holding off marriage plans because 2011 is a 'bad' year. Someone we know who studied in the West for years is deliberating (in consultation with families) about how to get married this year when it is such a bad year. I think that I am trying to say that many traditions remain very deeply ingrained in Chinese culture. The government is fighting a losing battle. :)

The government has flagged legislation to ban the consumption of dog (on animal cruelty grounds) but my 'corner' restaurant still has a big sign advertising 狗肉米线。

I don't know if keeping the 族谱 is China-wide either. A tutor from HK told me about it. As she said it, you have to go to Singapore these days, if you want to see Chinese traditions still thriving; the mainland was ravaged and so many traditions broken in the 文化大革命.

As she explained it to me, the 族谱, the family book, is passed down the generations and stays with the head (son) of the clan (so I think someone in his 40s or 50s), and he is the only one who can have access to it, open and see it. There would be a wheel, a cycle, of characters--not clear how many, it seemed like 60 maybe? some multiple of 12--to be assigned to the generations in order. So all the sons of the same generation, brothers and cousins, would accordingly have the same first char in their given name, and the second char in their given name treated as their personal name really. And I remember now, a 80后 teacher from Shenyang also told me about this naming tradition, though she didn't mention 族谱.

I meant that the father was named according to the tradition you refer to: three brothers, their given name shared the same first character (you note that is to do with the generation, I didn't know that, I thought it was just a character chosen for the usual reasons of meaning etc.) and then the last character of the given names varied. (I indicated the variation with A, B and C.)

Maybe xiaoliang can enlighten us as to whether his girlfriend is named this way, and (if he doesn't mind letting us know) why? :)

PS. You still sound like you are way ahead of me on names, Zhenlijiang, even if you did mix up that point. I am not sure myself whether this is a China-wide rule, the family is originally from Fujian. Actually I know that the minority nationalities have their own naming rules and some are markedly different to the Han tradition.

Oops, I have to apologize for acting like a know-it-all, and completely forgetting about girls not being named under such traditions! Sorry.

About XiaoLiang's question mark, I guess I ignored it, thought he was telling us his girlfriend is called 小雅.

What do you mean "the father was named similarly one of char A, char B and char C"? I didn't understand that.

In modern Japan we have families that like to carry on a certain character down generations, or carry on a pattern down generations (sons in my father's family had three-char given names, until my father was given a one-char, a break from the line my father didn't think much of. he gave my brother a three-char name), or take a char each from the mother's and father's name, or take a char just from the father's name for instance. These could apply in naming daughters too. But I don't think we have anything as formal as the Chinese traditions I have heard of. The generals in the warring age passed down characters. Of course daughters were not part of the picture here.

We have a hero in baseball, Sadaharu Oh 王貞治 (not to keep raising this issue, but he is considered a 'national hero' in Taiwan as well. As far as I know he is a Japanese national--if anyone knows otherwise pls correct me), his mother was Japanese, his father originally from Zhejiang. He has no sons, three daughters. In Japan unlike China and Korea, usually when a woman marries she gives up her maiden name, takes the surname of the family she is marrying into. So he named his daughters 理香 Rika, 理恵 Rie and 理沙 Risa (sorry, not sure about the char for sa), saying it was so that even after they grew up and married they would always be known as daughters of Oh 王. I thought nothing of that then, just fatherly love, but now I see it as very Chinese also.

* I edited this comment several times. *

Hi Zhenlijiang

I'm just realising I know very little about names - I have not seen this referred to as the 族谱 tradition. I don't understand your reference to 冯 - could you explain? [I thought xiaoliang was asking a question about this in his post - I thought he meant that he wasn't sure what his girlfriend was called. If he was sure, why the question mark?]

I can tell you something interesting: I was at dinner with a family where three girls have been named (given name) char A, char B, char C. The father said to me he was named similarly one of char A, char B and char C. 'Oh', I said, 'so you carried on the tradition with your three daughters!'

'NO!', he said, 'you can't do it with daughters - it can only be done with sons.' So, to clarify, they named their daughters this way but it was, if you like, 'coincidental' - this naming tradtion can't be done with females. Or, it can be done, but it does not have the same meaning. One of the daughters was there and she said to me 'yes, it's just a coincidence that me and my sisters are named this way'. :)

BTW, is this a tradition in Japan as well?

This case has always been about extended family of course. 小陆 is the wife of his girlfriend's relative (don't know how close--but I guess one of the people they spent time with in Guangzhou, in which case they're probably not very distant). As XiaoLiang says, my girlfriend's name is 冯雅 so sometime she's called 小雅, not 小冯. So he may have assumed it's another such 'family name' *meaning 2*.

Perhaps XL's girlfriend's family are keepers of the 族谱 tradition. As you know, following this tradition the first char in your full name is your surname, tells people what clan/family you belong to, the second char (first char in given name) tells people which generation of that clan you belong to, and the third char (second char in given name) is your personal identifier. So within the family she would be called 小雅. If this is the case I would expect her to have cousins with 冯 as the first char of their given names.

Hi xiao_liang

I love this name 'game' - one of my hobbies here learning about names.

Just to clarify the above (hope I'm not stating the obvious to you but your comment made me wonder).. you attach 小 to a family name such as 陆 to get 小陆, but you don't attach it to a given name. (At least I haven't seen it). But 小 can be part of a given name (examples given by lujiaojie); that is a different thing. In the first case 小 is a sobriquet, in the second case it is a name given by parents or grandparents and appearing on your ID. The sobriquet can be given in the workplace often for someone who is younger than the person who uses this form of address. Or it can be used in the family as a nickname as in my example in the post above; in which case it would be 小.. [something other than the family name.] In rural areas it was common to just give kids names by number; actually it still happens at least as a family name.

PS. I have used 'family' name in two ways above - hope that isn't confusing. 1. Family name = surname; 2. Family name = a nickname just used within the exended family. Actually this extends to the way kids address their parents, just like it does in the West I guess. We have ma, mum, mother, mater!, etc. (my brother often called my mother 'mutter') and the Chinese have various forms as well that vary from family to family.

A bit of packaging and a few more mystery relatives, and you can make a board game out of this! :-)

It was a surname after all! 小陆 is the winner! Thanks again :)

Ah, you're such a superstar, thank you for the help lujiaojie. I'll submit the suggestions to my expert jury for her opinion :)

Surname could be 芦 Lú 卢 Lú 鲁Lǔ 陆Lù 路Lù

小露，小璐，晓露，晓璐 is common for female first name.

There must be a big book written somewhere about names befitting the subject. I mean apart from One Hundred Names, which is actually a small book. I'm interested in names so look forward to more comments in your thread.

For what it is worth I have never heard 小 attached to a given name, only a family name. I have heard of brothers called 小海 and 大海, but these are 'family' names, not proper given names. I think that in modern China it is usual to have a family name (nickname) different to the name on your ID card.

Thanks lujiaojie. Is it likely to be a surname? I thought the 小... beginning was usually appended to someone's first name? For example, my girlfriend's name is 冯雅 so sometime she's called 小雅, not 小冯?

Those are the 4 surnames that I was thinking of.. but what about first names? 小鹿 for example.. or.. 小录.. or 晓露 even :) So many possibilities :)

4th tone...