把 （介）need examples, please!?
gesang
April 27, 2008, 10:44 AM posted in General DiscussionHello everybody,
i bought a new exercise book yesterday, with several sentance build, use vocab, find mistakes in chinese sentances, write character...exercises.
In one of these sentances 把 ba3 was used as a measure word, and then there was a note that there is another use for 把:
"used when the object goes before the verb, which must be reduplicated or accompanied by some other word or expression"
I never had this before, i think, and i dont really understand the explanation...
Can anybody help me with examples and explanations or link me to a cPod lesson where it is used like this? i couldnt find one by now..
thanks, 格桑
changye
April 28, 2008, 04:07 AMHi gesang, Here is the fourth tip for 把 structure, which is very simple. You have to place an auxiliary verb, adverb, and negative adverb BEFORE “把”, not after “把”. 我不把那本书卖给你。 我不想把那本书卖给你。 我不能把那本书卖给你。 我没把那本书卖给他。 我已经把那本书卖给他了。 我们都把那些钱捐给孤儿吧！(all of us) But be careful, 我们把那些钱都捐给孤儿吧！(all the money)
wildyaks
April 27, 2008, 11:08 AMThere we go. Henning was faster and way more accurate... :-)
gesang
April 27, 2008, 11:12 AMThank you Henning and Wildyaks!! Oh, of course i forgot to check your grammar collection post, Henning...searching by cPod search i only found measureword use before i posted this... and it takes so long until you open the lessons... Thanks again! Gesang
lunetta
April 27, 2008, 11:17 AMIt doesn't look like there's a qing wen on the subject yet but I'm sure CPod will make one if people start requesting it. I for one think it would be a good subject.
auntie68
April 27, 2008, 11:29 AMHi gesang. I'm sorry I can't deliver the usual examples this time -- Formula One starting very soon! -- but I believe that Henning has given you an incredible amount of amazingly useful information. This "other" use of 把 is well worth spending the time to get comfortable with, it is -- syntactically -- one of the most important words in Mandarin. It's one of those extremely versatile (but maybe impossible to explain!) words. In that sense it reminds me of that German verb, "treiben". Sorry to all the German speakers out there who will be horrified by my ghastly German, but 把 is a bit like a treiben that works on verbs rather than objects. Good luck!
auntie68
April 27, 2008, 11:31 AMP/s: Or like the German verb "lassen", maybe.
chillosk
April 27, 2008, 11:49 AMHenning 真厉害！
gesang
April 27, 2008, 12:01 PMThanks auntie, incredible you even know German Grammar, from what i read in your posts before you are from Singapore, right? wow, i have much to study now with Hennings links, and i also made a note to ask my chinese teacher next time (unfortunately i had to reduce lessons for money reasons...so i am very happy i have the cpod community, too!!!)... i am curious about what she will teach me about it, hope i can add something here afterwards...as it seems i came across quite a topic this morning ;-)...
changye
April 27, 2008, 12:56 PMHi gesang, One of the most important things in using 把 properly is not to use a “naked” verb. wrong) 你把那个房间收拾。 我把一个苹果吃。 你把那个东西拿。 correct) 你把那个房间收拾收拾。 你把那个房间收拾一下。 你把那个房间收拾干净。 我把那个房间收拾了。 我把那个房间租给他。 我把一个苹果放在桌子上。 我把一个苹果吃了。 我把一个苹果吃掉。 你把那个东西拿回来。 你把那个东西拿来。 你把那个东西拿着。
wildyaks
April 27, 2008, 11:06 AMDoesn't the book talk about the one ba-construction that we all so love... with the inversion of the object, e.g: 把书放在桌子上。 ba + object + what is to be done with it And I am pretty sure there was a qingwen, and certainly lessons, but maybe somebody else who organizes lessons according to such patterns can ehlp out.
RJ
April 27, 2008, 06:10 PMLearning Chinese using CPOD - $x per month by Visa or Mastercard. Threads like this one - PRICELESS!
changye
April 28, 2008, 02:11 AMHi gesang, CORRECTION, and the second tip for using 把 properly. wrong) > 我把一个苹果放在桌子上。 > 我把一个苹果吃了。 > 我把一个苹果吃掉。 revised) 我把那个苹果放在桌子上。 我把那个苹果吃了。 我把那个苹果吃掉。 In general, the object after 把 need to be a thing or matter that both speaker and listener already know or recognize, therefore you commonly have to add, for example, “我的, 你的, 那个, 这个, 妈妈的, 今天的” to the object. You can use the “把一个～” structure when talking about something as a general thing, like “怎样把一个男孩培养成男子汉!” And you can sometimes omit a possessive word like this, “你把(你的/今天的)作业做完了吗？”.
wei1xiao4
April 28, 2008, 02:29 AMChangye, that was great! I love that, "no naked verbs" rule when using ba. Hennings has been working on all this input for us for such a long time. I'm not sure how to access it though. I just scour through it looking for the lesson I am working on. Does anyone know a better way to do this. You are right rjberki, this type of info in priceless. 我把你的留言同意了。Did I say that correctly, Changye?
auntie68
April 28, 2008, 02:35 AMDear gesang, I agree with changye. Eg: 我喝了水 wo3 h1le shui3 = I drank (some) water. but: 我把水喝了 wo3 ba3 shui3 he1le = I drank the water Good luck!
henning
April 28, 2008, 02:43 AMwei1xiao1, this is actually how what is meant to be: an index that points at lessons where certain language points are mentioned or discussed in the banter. It has initially been designed to speed up the interlinking the grammar guide...
changye
April 28, 2008, 03:34 AMHi weixiao, I’m afraid that ”我把你的留言同意了” is not correct, probably. The most natural way to say the similar thing should be that 我同意你的观点(看法，想法, 意见, 说法) or something like that. And let me show you the third tip for 把 structure. Ø 我把你的留言删除了。(deleted) The above sentence is correct because this suggests that you treat or act on (删除) something and get the result (了), which is a basic thought usually underling the 把 structure, therefore generally you cannot use verbs such as “同意” or “理解” with 把. Other examples. Just saying “我把那部电影看了” is not correct since it does not connote you act on 电影, but “我把那部电影拍完了” is OK because in this case, you act on (拍) the 电影 and get the result (完了). Wow, I’m becoming confused about 把 too! “我把那部电影看完了” is also OK. Emphasizing the result of an action (完了) is also a critical function of 把 structure. “我把那部电影看了” is not OK, but “我把那个苹果吃了” is OK, this is just because that the action “吃” is more “active” than “看” (just seeing).
pituitaryadenoma
April 28, 2008, 03:54 AMDear Changye, 我把那部电影看了, is actually CORRECT, albeit carries a slight difference in its meaning. One must know that most Chinese words had been historically built on just one hanzi, and every hanzi or kanji carries its own meaning independently, it is only until the last 100 years or so more and more words become a compound of 2 or more hanzi, and a lot of them are actually being imported from Japanese language. Going back to the sentence: 1.我把那部电影看了, means I saw that movie. 2.我把那部电影看完了, means I finished seeing that movie. The first sentence means I saw that movie but may not finished seeing the movie, seeing the movie for only 1 second is also considered as seeing. The second sentence means I finished seeing that movie, from head to tail. Therefore, both are right, it really depends on what you want to convey.
changye
April 28, 2008, 04:06 AMHi pituitaryadenoma Thanks again for your precious information. Actually, I was looking forward to your comment! And I am very pleased to know that you are also interested in the history of relationship between Chinese and Japanese. Your remark below is very right. Even the word 共产主义 is a made-in-Japan word. > a lot of them are actually being imported > from Japanese language.
gesang
April 27, 2008, 02:01 PMThanks changye, i am really happy to have this compact explanation about ONE thing about this 把, after realizing the complexity of my question ;-)!!!
henning
April 27, 2008, 11:00 AMHi gesang, start here: