phonetic map : 丂 qiao
goulnik
October 06, 2008, 06:45 PM posted in General Discussion| qiao | ||
| 巧 qiǎo clever; coincidentally 巧妙 qiǎomiào ingenious; clever 不巧 bùqiǎo unfortunately |
丂 qiǎo . |
窍 qiào aperture; key to sth. 九窍 jiǔqiào body orifices 窍门 qiàomén key to a problem; knack |
| hao | ||
| 号 hào number in a series; business 编号biānhào serial number 商号 shānghào shop; store |
号 háo to howl 号哭 háokū to wail |
|
| kao | ||
| 考 kǎo to give/take test; study 考试 kǎoshì exam 考虑 kǎolǜ to think over |
||
| xiu | ||
| 朽 xiǔ decayed; senile 老朽 lǎoxiǔ v.p. old and useless 朽坏 xiǔhuài decayed; rotten |
||
goulnik
October 06, 2008, 07:29 PMit's not listed in 现代汉语词典(汉英双语), not even in the 利氏汉语大字典 (Dictionnaire Ricci des caractères chinois). what is listed there as an archaic variant of 于 is actually 亏.
but just because it's central doesn't mean it has to be in use, its main function is to serve as phonetic component. the original character might have become obsolete.
in any event, I would be really interested to hear the Chinese view on this, after all this concept, or at least the table I am working from have originated with a Western sinologist (L.Wieger).
henning
October 06, 2008, 07:44 PMGoulnik,
don't misunderstand me. This is not criticism. I really think those tables are perfect for learning and fine as they are. And I agree that 丂 is ultra-rare.
Just a little nerdy fun of looking up a little add-on knowledge. Which for me sometimes adds that complemental little memory hook I was still missing.
goulnik
October 06, 2008, 08:12 PMno problem, I also would rather have consistent data on all characters, and it really puzzles me that some key pieces are missing...
note that I started with (some of) the most frequent pinyin sounds which my appear in 10 or more characters. but it looks like some of the phonetics only occur in 1-3 characters, e.g. 览, 严, 党, 霸.
correction : 利氏汉语大字典 (Dictionnaire Ricci des caractères chinois). has 丂 listed as kǎo : (oracle bones) place name, 'augusts grand-fathers (ancestors) and defunct fathers', then 'longevity', 'do one's utmost to pay respects, make offerings or otherwise show filial piety' all in various pronunciations.
according to 说文, similar to one of your definitions, obstructed breathing, blocked by a horizontal line.
changye
October 07, 2008, 06:12 AMThe etymology of the phonetic radical "丂" (kao) is a little confusing. Some scholars say that "丂" is a simplified form of "考". And "考" (kao) was equal to "老" (lao) in ancient Chinese. In short, "丂" = "老", and therefore the original meaning of "丂" is "old, elder".
In this sense, the characters "巧", "窍", "考", and "朽" are easily understandable semantically. Probably, old guys are skilled at something...(?) Later, "丂" obtained another meaning "obstructed breathing", due to its shape(?), which led to the invention of "兮" and "号".
The (rough and approximate) historical sound transitions of "丂"- characters are as follows, where I added one more character "兮" (xi1)， which is a frequently used interjection in old Chinese (文言).
丂 kok > kao > kao > kao
考 kok > kao > kao > kao
巧 kok > kao > kiao > qiao
号 hok > hao > hao > hao
朽 hio > hiao > hiao > xiu
兮 hie > hiei > hi > xi
missworldtraveler
October 07, 2008, 11:21 AMHi Guys,
It is obvious you all are serious about understanding Chinese characters. Well, so am I -- especially since I need to know 3000 characters by this time next year. I am confident with your help I can do it.
Thanks for creating this group.
goulnik
October 07, 2008, 11:52 AMmissworldtraveler, there are 858 character components according to the Wieger table I'm using. As a rough estimate, I would say we'll end up with 5-6 characters on average, which should get you 4-5000 in total.
And that's only my contribution, i.e. phonetic compounds, not including the standard approach through radicals. So, even revised downwards, that's still more than what you need, I just have to sustain a pace of 2-3 a day ?!
henning
October 13, 2008, 12:19 PMCSV-list (for the import to Flashcard apps; "@" is delimeter):
不巧@bùqiǎo@unfortunately
九窍@jiǔqiào@body orifices
号@hào; háo@hào: number in a series; business; number in a series; business - háo: to howl
号哭@háokū@to wail
商号@shānghào@shop; store
巧@qiǎo@clever; coincidentally
巧妙@qiǎomiào@ingenious; clever
朽@xiǔ@decayed; senile
朽坏@xiǔhuài@decayed; rotten
窍@qiào@aperture; key to sth.
窍门@qiàomén@key to a problem; knack
编号biānhào@serial@number
老朽@lǎoxiǔ@v.p. old and useless
考@kǎo@to give/take test; study
考虑@kǎolǜ@to think over
考试@kǎoshì@exam
henning
October 06, 2008, 07:00 PMYou left me curious what the group-defining 丂 (kǎo) means. Even if it is rare it got a central position in the chart...
according to erong:
古同 于 "于"
zdict also gives
"obstruction of breath (qi) as it seeks release; variant of other characters"