Debating Traditional v. Simplified Characters
zhangdawei
May 04, 2009, 03:43 AM posted in General Discussionhttp://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/02/chinese-language-ever-evolving/
Cut and paste the above link from the NYTimes about the on going debate about the future of Chinese written script.
miantiao
May 05, 2009, 07:39 AM商代时，甲骨文逐渐简单化而有系统，称为大篆。秦始皇统一中国以后，大篆简化成了小篆。改变小篆的形体，制造了隶书。后来隶书发展了草书。后汉时代，有一位学者利用笔、墨、纸张的便利创造了楷书而楷书奠定了到上个世纪正体被简化的时候中文正体。
百家的老子、孔子、床子、墨子等等，肯定不是在用楷书来写字的。
象形文字现在就占了中文字体的一小部分， 字体演变到了楷书的时候就难看到了象形字体的痕迹了。
user300409
May 04, 2009, 11:20 AMMy opinion: Most simplified Characters are simply ugly.
Look at 个, 过, 么, 当, 与, 无, 东, 写, 乐, 兴, 艺, 乡, etc.!
They have no beauty, contain no meaning, nothing, just ugly script!
Traditional characters are the path of least resistance to learning. Because they are more complex, they convey a “story” behind the character, so they are much easier to memorize!
Simplified characters IMHO are relicts of Maoism. Taiwan and HK did right to keep the beautiful and easy to learn and understand traditional script.
What's more, some restaurant owners and shopkeepers in the PRC want to show their distinctiveness and "education" and switched back to traditional script... ;-)
And:
Cit.: In Taiwan and Hong Kong, schoolchildren have no trouble learning traditional characters, and those regions demonstrate some of the highest literacy rates in the world. Meanwhile, in recent decades, the PRC has implemented policies that implicitly acknowledge the practical, cultural and aesthetic values of traditional Chinese: some traditional characters have been restored to use, and the government permits traditional characters in the practice of calligraphy.
IMHO the purpose of simplified Chinese was to destroy parts of the Chinese culture so that Communism could take its place.
Just my opinion.
changye
May 04, 2009, 11:53 AMAs far as learners of Mandarin concern, the answer to this problem entirely depends on your needs and interests. I personally hope that Taiwan and Hong Kong will keep using traditional characters in the future. I love diversity.
tvan
May 04, 2009, 03:34 PMI'm with changye. It seems like you have the best of both worlds now. The PRC's move to universal education was assisted by simplified characters; Taiwan steps in to fulfill its post-colonial role as repository of traditional Chinese culture.
I did have a quibble with the statement by one of the debaters who asserted that traditional characters have a strong association with,
"the canonical writings of Confucius, Lao Tzu and countless others who had exploited the full range and expression of the traditional characters."
I'm not positive of the specifics, but I'm pretty sure that characters underwent at least one or two simplifications since the times of Confucius and Lao Tzu. They may have a stronger connection, but it still seems pretty tenuous.
paigeums
May 04, 2009, 05:15 PMTraditional characters are a lot more intimidating to a complete newbie. I've been studying with simplified for nearly a year, and just now started studying the traditional counterparts of the characters I already know. If Chinesepod had been traditional-only back when I started, there's no way I would have progressed as much as I have (if I'd stuck with Chinese at all).
antony73
May 04, 2009, 05:36 PMpaigeums
That's interesting, you think that studying with traditional characters would have slowed your progress?
I've been studying Chinese a little under three years and have been terribly slow at studying characters. I had been thinking that maybe I should, as a beginner to characters, learn traditional. Maybe this method would save time and effort later on.
What do others think to a beginner to characters learning traditional? I am really at a loss which way to go with this.
hitokiri6993
May 04, 2009, 06:45 PMI started learning writing and speaking Mandarin when I was eight years old, and honestly... learning to memorize simplified characters were very confusing and quite difficult. After 2 weeks of study, I reverted to traditional and I actually found it easier to write and memorize.
But then again, it's the person's preference.
antony73
May 04, 2009, 07:03 PMhitokiri That is wierd, and you're probably right about personal preference. I remember Amber saying that living in Taiwan(?) made remembering and recognizing traditional characters difficult, yet when living in Mainland, using simplified, it became much easier. The complete opposite experiance to yourself.
lechuan
May 04, 2009, 07:50 PMI usually break it down as follows:
If you want to go to, or are are in, Mainland China, learn Simplified.
Taiwan, Hong Kong etc? Learn Traditional.
If neither of the above, just choose one. See what resources are availble for each. What are available mangas and books in your area printed in? What subtitles are used on your favorite dramas? Flip a coin.
The worse thing you can do is delay your studies of the characters because you can't decide (as happened ot myself). I ended up arbitrarily choosing simplified because I found a really good book on learning characters that is only available for simplified characters. I plan to learn traditional later on.
It's kind of like debating whether to learn english with an american or british accent....
hitokiri6993
May 04, 2009, 10:26 AM繁體字 however is much preferred in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau and almost all overseas Chinese communities. I haven't seen simplified characters in use outside Mainland China...
user300409
May 04, 2009, 09:05 PMantony73 said
most Chinese people I know who have only studied simplified can also read traditional
OK, but for a foreigner who only learned simplified it will be very hard if he comes e.g. to Taiwan.
He knows 体 - but in Taiwan it's 體.
Or, he knows 艺 - but in Taiwan it's 藝.
etc, etc.
Really easy??
paigeums
May 04, 2009, 11:11 PMSome characters only change a little and are easy for simplified readers to recognize, like 謝 and even 學. I only really know about 50 traditional so far, and I'm having very little difficulty due to being able to pick out the simplified character within the traditional.
But also using your examples, it could be true the other way around as well for some people, since there's little-to-no relation between the simp. and trad. versions.
changye
May 05, 2009, 01:10 AMHi tvan
You are very right. The characters used in a time when Confucius and Laozi lived are very different even from today's "traditional" characters, both in shapes and pronunciations. The debater's remark is just a nonsense.
hitokiri6993
May 05, 2009, 03:05 AMHaha. Yeah. I really got confused with the 干 character， knowing that there were more than just one meaning, such as ：
干= shield; to invade
幹=to do
乾= dry
My Chinese teacher suggests learning BOTH simplified and traditional character sets.
user300409
May 05, 2009, 06:35 AMchangye said
The debater's remark is just a nonsense.
You may call it nonsense, but the main reason of the character reforms in the 1950's is a political one: to destroy "old" culture.
It is also interesting that Chairman Mao never used simplified characters.
miantiao
May 05, 2009, 06:43 AMi've noticed mainland chinese may not recognise some traditional characters individually, but in context have no problem at all.
and i'm sure it works the other way round.
the larger one's vocab gets the easier it is to recognise either forms in context.
i guess i'm lucky though, having had an education in both but not by design. having realised the value of studying both, after some initial frustration, i continue to read texts in both forms.
miantiao
May 05, 2009, 07:04 AMchinese written language would be impossible if romanised, and why should it be?
naming for one would lose its integrity. why should the chinese romanise their language in order to please growing frustration from outside their own culture?
i agree that the number of characters does prolong the process of literacy, but when a language is based on tones and single syllable words i can't see any other way other than to use multitudes of symbols.
the written form has been simplified on the mainland and may be simplified further, or perhaps it may revert to 楷书， which has been 正式的字体(正体）up until the simplification. simplifiaction was the simplification of 楷书。
romanising the chinese language is implausable and impossible.
urbandweller
May 05, 2009, 07:30 AMa chinese friend just taught me this recently...its a newbie thing i should have learned a long time ago!
繁体字( 繁體字 trad.) fan2 ti3 zi4 means traditional character
简体字 (簡體字 trad.) jian3 ti3 zi4 means simplified character
antony73
May 04, 2009, 08:20 PMlechuan
I think that's it. After all, most Chinese people I know who have only studied simplified can also read traditional, and vise versa.
skyfx
May 04, 2009, 09:41 AMsimplified chinese are more appricated in most area of China.