Please give grammar help!!!

Hi xiaophil

It seems to be a little difficult to exactly translate the weird English phrase into weird Chinese. Unfortunately, 我上个星期回来时 is NOT weird in terms of tense. What about "我上个星期将回来时"? It's rather weird, hehe.

请你在一张我上个星期回来时已回答的便条上，明确地概括你的要求和问题。

Please outline your needs or questions in a succinct note which I have already answered when I return last week.

xiaophil：

谢谢你纠正我的错误！哎，比我考研究生时候的翻译题还要难。

changye

世界是骇人听闻的地方!! ;-)

Hiorangina

I'm shocked, shocked to find that 我上了你一当, although I very much like a joke of this kind, hehe.

changye 哈哈！Thankfully Dr. Streetmentioner's book is not real... It is from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. I thought it was appropriate because it so nicely ties together time-travel and the difficulties of grammar, even if you are a native speaker of the language in question!

hey orangina

how many mushrooms should one consume before one settles down to read it?

miantiao

我明白你的意思。说实话，我特别喜欢你这个“一边我在游岁月中”的句子，比较比喻的，像诗歌一样差不多。

Hi xiaophil

Thanks a lot for your detailed explanation. I finally got it. I'm afraid I overlooked the key phrase "traveling in time" in the text. I don't even know how to translate the English text into my native language, let alone how to translate it into proper Chinese!

Hi orangina

Looks like I have to ask someone to help me decipher your comment, hehe! Anyway, I'm very glad that my mother tongue, Japanese, is not as strict as English about tense. I guarantee that the book you introduced doesn't sell well in China and Japan!

hey xiaophil

我上面写的不是具体的针对任何的人。 我的意思就是说，好像这里没有一位母语是中文的人物能干翻译你的句子。

还有，谢你啦。 我是真的喜欢这个游戏。虽说令我头痛，可是也是带给它好好锻炼。

miantiao

If you just read what I wrote, nevermind.  If you are baffled by this, then you didn't read what I wrote. ;)

天啊！这游戏就是游戏罢了！当然xiaophil给我们提供的句子中的意义不讲道理。如果母语不是英文或者英文水平还不达到高级水平，就无法看懂，于是无法翻译成中文。

这游戏好耍我觉得哈！

rj,

Please outline your needs or questions in a succinct note which I have already answered when I return last week 哈哈!

lujiaojie

不好意思，我觉得你的翻译有点错。

你写了：

“对不起，我目前在外旅行，不在办公室， 所以不能查收邮件”

但是，这是“时间旅游”(time travel)，不是在一般的外面旅游。

changye, please consult Dr. Dan Streetmentioner's Time Traveler's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations. It will tell you, for instance, how to describe something that was about to happen to you in the past before you avoided it by time-jumping forward two days in order to avoid it. The event will be described differently according to whether you are talking about it frim your own natural time, from a time in the further future , or a time in the further past and is further complicated by the possibility of conducting conversations while you are actually traveling from one time to another with the intention of becoming your own mother or father. Most readers get as far as the Future Semiconditionally Modified Subinverted Plagal Past Subjunctive Intentional before giving up； and in fact in later editions of the book all pages beyond this point have been left blank to save on printing costs. ~h2g2

我也看不懂。

Changye

我尽力帮你。

This is probably the easy one:

• Please outline your needs or questions in a succinct note. 
  

It bascially means "Please tell me your needs and questions clearly in a brief note".

Now the hard part:

• I have already answered

He doesn't explictitly say it, but because he is time traveling, he has already been able to see the note that he is asking for.  Yes, this is hard for native English speakers to understand too.

Now the last part:

• when I return last week

Normally we return in the future, but because he is time traveling, he has the ability to return at any time, this time being 'last week'.

So let me see if I can put it all together.

Please leave a note, but because I can travel in time, that means 'sometime in the future' I have already read and answered your note.  'Sometime in the future' is also the time I return to the past, which is your last week. 

Actually, I think I made it worse.  The idea is to keep in mind there is more than one timeline paradoxically happening at the same time.  Even though he already replied to the note, the note still must be made to keep the continuity.

Okay, now I'll say it.  我晕

Me too. I don't understand what the last line means. The first line should be:

对不起，我目前在外旅行，不在办公室， 所以不能查收邮件。

Honestly, I don't exactly understand what this line means. Please someone help me "decrypt" it.

Please outline your needs or questions in a succinct note which I have already answered when I return last week."

Okay, I wanted to make one change...

"对不起，由于我目前在外面时间旅行，于是我没看你发给我的电子邮件。请你在一张我上个星期回来时已回答的便条上，明确地概括你的要求和问题"。

zhenlijiang

You caught me.  Poorly worded.  Bad xiaophil.  

"I would love to hear from some Chinese on this matter." :)

xiaophil,  I hadn't realized there were fake Chinese among us here (who all are they--just so I know?).

(Sorry, wasn't trying to fault-find! I've unintentionally given people the impression of being an imposter myself which is probably why I reacted)

hey rj

我试一下吧！

抱歉，你来的邮件没看了，一边我在游岁月中，请你把我已当上个礼拜时看过了的你的要求和问题在概括上写清楚。

我晕！

RJ

It would be nice to get some real Chinese (hint, hint) to take a look at this because there has to be some errors, possibly major ones.  But I think I got the gist.

Anyway, as promissed:

"对不起，由于我目前在外面时间旅行，于是我没看你发给我的电子邮件。请你在一张我上个星期回来时已回答的具体便条上，概括你的要求和问题"。

"Sorry to have missed your e-mail correspondence as I am currently out of the office and traveling in time. Please outline your needs or questions in a succinct note which I have already answered when I return last week."

再前见

下一次见过

似曾相识

既视感

Hi rjberki

Reading the text makes me dizzy, just like watching an Eshcer's painting.

Congratulations Xiaophil and RJ! You've managed to find a wormhole linking a grammar thread to the drivel-verse

I think a Nobel prize is in order here.

See you all yesterday.

rjberki

这些句子是否Hawkwind的歌词？（给你开玩笑)

And I will try to translate, but sadly not until morning (China time).

我晕！

@xiaophil,

What tenses would be (were) needed in my next (last) "out of office" auto reply? It went  (will go) something like this:

"Sorry to have missed your e-mail correspondence as I am currently out of the office and traveling in time. Please outline your needs or questions in a succinct note which I have already answered when I return last week."

-RJ

Please translate.

Attention everyone:

I made a final post regarding this subject and put it here.

chengyuanfang

Thanks for the help.  I looked at your examples.

1、I read books.
我看书。

2、I am reading a book.
我正在看书。（be doing something use 正在 before the verb 看 in the sentence）

3、I am reading a book tomorrow.
我明天会看(着)书。（It's both correct to use 着 or not ）

4、I have read that book.
我看过那本书。(It's both correct to use 了 or not)

5、I have been reading that book.
我最近在看着那本书。

6、I read that book.
我看了那本书。

7、I was reading that book.
我以前看那本书。

8、I had read that book.
我已经看了那本书了。

9、I had been reading that book.
我以前看着那本书了。

10、I will read that book.
我会看那本书。

11、I will be reading a book.
我会看那本书。

12、I will have finished reading that book by 10 pm.
我十点会看完那本书的。

13、I will have been reading that book for 2 weeks.
到那个时候我已经看那本书两个星期。

 Many sentences are of the same meaning.So it's not important to care wheater use 着 了 in some sentences.You can use other words instead 。

不用客气哦！

aaaaz

谢谢你的非常清楚的说明！我明白。

所以你的“我今天已经决心了在ChinesePod更多写汉语”

应该说成：“我今天已经下了决心在ChinesePod里写更多汉语”

to xiaophil

  看到你的决心我很高兴。但是，你又犯了一些错误，是关于“了”的错误。

  汉语里，一般两个字组成的词后面不加上“了”，但有些词   表示(express)一般过去时(simple past tense)时会加上“了”，如：吃了(had)，进行了(had).

  但是在 一般现在时(Present Tense),或是(or)不表示 过去 和 将来 的 时态(Tense),两个字组成的词是不用“了”的，否则会表示成过去。

  简单的说，就是你在不想表示过去和将来时态的时候，就不用“了”。

  如：吃苹果，决心写字，鼓励大家，打开抽屉，遵守规则(它们都是 一般现在时)

        吃了苹果，鼓励了大家，打开了抽屉，遵守了规则(它们都是 一般过去时，而 决心 要表示一般过去时，应该说“下了决心做……”)

aaaz

谢谢你的鼓励，说实话，我今天已经决心了在ChinesePod更多写汉语，一直用英语讨论汉语没有特别好处。

To xiaophil：

  不用客气，现在来看，你的句子"谢谢你的方法和忠告"已经基本不存在 语法(grammar)问题了, 仅仅(only)存在一些 语言习惯(the language habit)上的问题，我想这种问题在 日后(later)会得到解决的。

  另外，我希望你能够多用汉语(Chinese)，并大胆的用汉语，这样，如果你的汉语中存在问题，我们一定能够帮你找出来，并为你解答

aaaz

谢谢你的解决和忠告。。。

哦！我的意思就是说“谢谢你的方法和忠告”！

哈哈哈

Really though, I appreciate the help.

Well,I don't like my user name,but I have no ideas.If you can,please call me Dea.

Hello，xiaophil

我已经看了你的一些 求助文章(help articles)，我发现你用“解决”这个词时经常将它 看作名词(as a noun)，我想这大多数时候是错的(It's wrong all the time to use "解决" as a noun)，实际上(in fact)，"解决"是一个 动词(verb)，它可以做 及物动词(transitive verb)，也可以做 不及物动词(intransitive verb)。

所以，你的句子"我很高兴看到你们的解决和忠告。我会编写这些资料在一起"存在一些问题。

你可以这样说(You could say it as this)：我很高兴看到你们的方法和忠告。我将会把这些资料编写在一起。

你可以用“方法”代替“解决”，因为方法是一个名词

同时，你在用 一般将来时(Simple Future Tense)的时候，可以说成：我将……，即在“我”的后面加上“将”，其它的内容不变

PS:其实我认为“将”很想英语中的“will”，希望以上的内容对你会有帮助

aaaaz and diwaien (and anybody else I might have missed)

I am so happy to see your solutions and input.  I will compile these.

Thanks so much.

我很高兴看到你们的解决和忠告。我会编写这些资料在一起。

多谢你们

As for the English tenses, I know how to use them, but I don't know the names of them.  I had to look them up on the internet.  I just think they are useful because they can describe every temporal situation in English.  If I can translate them roughly into Chinese, I'm good.  And as far as I am concerned, these structures are chunks, therefore adhering to ChinesePod's principle.

拿“English tenses“来说，我能用，不过我不太知道它们具体的名次，我那时在网上研究一下。我只是觉得因为“English tenses“能描写所有的情况，所以比较有用。如果我能把这些英文的观念翻译成中文差不多，我很满意。说起来chunks，这样的“English tense”的句式是一种"chunk"，因此遵守ChinesePod的原则。

To clarify matters, last sentence was "pass" (go through). Here is the same sentence with "pass" (succeed) :

要是看过那本书了，他可能成功了他的考试。

If he had read this book, he would have passed his exam.
要是看过那本书了，他可能通过了他的考试。

Is it correct ?

I agree with lujiaojie's opinion.

Here is some Chinese expression based on my logic below, perhaps I will misunderstand xiaophil's thought on some of the tenses.

I am reading a book tomorrow.  明天我看书呢。or 明天我在看书。However, "会" shows the possibility if something will happen.

For example: 他明天来吗？ Is he coming tommorrow?

他明天会来吗？ Means I wonder if he will show up tomorrow.

I have read that book. 那本书我看了。 "了" shows the completion.

I have been reading that book. 我一直看那本书呢。 In Chinese adverbs and time nouns are important to show the tense.

I read that book.  我看那本书了。 which means you did something, or some action has been completed. In our Chinese logic, if you say 我看那本书了 without speaking any time words, we'd rather think you mean you've read that book. If you say yesterday I read that book, we can say 昨天我看那本书来着。 来着is another grammar point.

I had read that book. 我看过那本书了。 However, we cannot compare Chinese 过 with the English Past Perfect Tense. 过 in Chines means you have ever done something, and indicates you have some experiences and abilities.

For example, 我去过南极。 I have ever been to the South Pole. After we hearing of this, we can know you mean you have some experience of living in the Antarctic, or you are showing off you are rich.

I will be reading a book. 那时候我看书呢。

I will have finished reading that book by 10 pm. 那本书我10点看完。

We don't use 会 on these two occasions in oral speaking. 会 still shows the possbility.

I will have been reading that book for 2 weeks. 到那时候，那本书我看了两个星期了。

I specially ponder过 these "过、了、着、呢", and I wonder if lujiaojie will agree with my opinion.

Learning Chinese grammar has been a great help to me. Prior to buying the grammar books, I've wondered again and again why Chinese words are arranged in such a strange order. Now after learning  some basic grammar rules, I have a much better understanding how Chinese structure their basic sentences and I have a much better handle on how to incorporate new vocabulary into my Chinese sentences.

How long do I need to wander the streets of China speaking foolishly before someone tells me that you need to say this before that? Thank goodness there is the grammar book which within minutes can tell me how to get my communication approximately correct. 

We got it - the Cpod's approach in teaching Chinese is to think and talk in contextual Chinese, learn chunks of expressions by themselves, forget about figuring out meanings of the individual words, forget about translating from English into Chinese, learn pronunciations by listening to fast speakers, and of course, diss grammar. The rest of the world teaching Chinese just don't get it. 

Zhenlijiang,

I agree that this kind of discussion and exercise should be encouraged, not dismissed, and you are correct that this is separate from "the always-needing-to-translate-from-English" issue. I would think the goal of everyone is to eventually think (not just speak) in Chinese, but in the mean time we need a way to communicate our questions effectively. God bless those who know what these things are called.

Present Tense

汉语里一般不会出现一般现在时(Present Tense)，当如果要表示常常做某事，汉语里常用：我经常(often)……；我总是(always)……；

如：我经常读书(I often read books)

汉语里很少用：”我读书“这种句型（sentential form）

Present Continuous Tense

翻译现在进行时(Present Continuous Tense)，可以译成：我正在……；我在……

如：我正在看书(I am reading books)

Simple Future Tense

一般将来时（Simple Future Tense）其实很好翻译，你只要用这种句型：我将会……；我马上去……；我将会去……

如：我将会去看书(I will have a reading)

不能够加“着”，“着”不被用在一般将来时，你可以在现在进行时中的：吃，看，玩等可以带上宾语(can take an object)的词后用

Present Perfect Tense

I have read that book.

我看过那本书.(It's able to use in Simple Past Tense)

(Is it okay to add 了 and say 我看过了那本书?)

It's good to add "了"
Present Perfect Continuous Tense

I have been reading that book.

我最近在看着那本书。

如果你没看完：

我已近在看那本书了

（Don't add “着”,it just use in Present Continuous Tense ,and it's wrong to use "看着书", it is usually use "看书")

Past Tense

I read that book.

我看了那本书。

Good！

Past Continuous Tense

过去进行时(Past Continuous Tense)通常会带有时间，你可以结合(syncretize)时间和现在进行时( Present Continuous Tense)翻译。一般使用的时间如下：在那时；昨天X点。时间一定要具体

如：我昨天8点在看书

Past Perfect Tense

I had read that book.

我已经看了那本书了。

Good！

Repeating what others have said, I don't know what they are called in English or Japanese either and not knowing my tenses hasn't been a problem for me in being fluent in those two languages.

But there are those people (I suspect like Changye?  So is he a "nut"?) who simply get an intellectual kick out of discussing and thinking about grammar points, and in a language learning environment that kind of discussion and exercise should be encouraged, not dismissed. I enjoy listening in on those kinds of discussions, it's very educational.
And this is separate from the always-needing-to-translate-from-English issue.

Mikeinewshot, I think it's less a matter of talking about grammar, it's more how change your reference frame for the rule. This is probably a stupid way of thinking about it, but it works for me - you can describe a point on a piece of paper using cartesian co-ordinates or polar co-ordinates, and it's a matter of flipping your brain into a different way of achieving the same thing depending on what you're doing (though it's good to know how to convert one to the other). You can think about tenses in English, or you can think about completed actions in Chinese, and they both achieve the same thing, but if you start thinking of circular motion in Cartesian co-ordinates, you're head starts to hurt a bit more than if you used polar.

xiaophil

Oh dear you are being lambasted for using the 'GRAMMAR' word, although what we are all talking about here is actually grammar!  It seems that instead of saying something like "What is the difference between Chinese and English grammar when talking about the future?" you have to ask "What is the difference between Chinese and English when talking about the future?"!

Okay.  No more English for awhile.  It's time to speak Chinese.

rjberki

This is exactly how I feel.  I probably seem like a grammar nut, but I just want to find a way to say what I want to say.  The simpler the better, and I don't care what name people slap on it, be it the present perfect, past perfect or whatever.

Still think you are great Matt!

I think Mike hit it on the head when he said:

 "I constantly feel frustrated that I don't know how to express equivalent ideas in Chinese to our complex tenses."

Thats the point, I couldnt care less about grammar. I never learned english grammar and I dont plan to learn Chinese. I just want to know how to say what I want to say, and to say it correctly. 

Anyway thank you Jiaojie (and xiaophil).

sorry sebire, I walked on your question.

I agree. Let's all forget about English grammar, it's far too complicated.

我已经看了那本书了

If you miss out one or the other 了, what does that change? Is the first 了 showing that the reading was completed, and the second 了 matching up with the 已经 (and it's a new situation?)

In other words, are these also the same:

我已经看了那本书 

我已经看那本书了

Matt

Certainly we should all think in Chinese and throw away our native tongue - easier said than done!!

My credentials in languages is that I speak French fluently and used to speak Russian pretty well.  Certainly in French I don't need to visit English first before I speak.  But there is a big BUT with respect to Chinese and English and how we express the time of events relative to others.

I think there is something special about the way that in English (and French and to a lesser extent Russian) we think about the timeline.  I constantly feel frustrated that I don't know how to express equivalent ideas in Chinese to our complex tenses.

I am reminded often of conversations with Chinese people in English when I have had no idea of whether they were talking about the past, present or future! 

So I totally support Xiaophil's attempt to get his head around this. 

Chinesepod: how about a series of qingwen's?  How about taking a few examples of situations in English where we use complex tenses, and teaching us how to think about expressing equivalent ideas in Chinese?

As a learner of Mandarin, sometimes I can't resist doing this kind of "thought experiment".

matt c

I live in Shanghai.  I do speak Chinese quite a bit, and I don't translate word-for-word (always).  However, it is a nice feeling to know that what you are saying is grammatically correct when you say it, and what you wanted to say is what you actually said.  I know ChinesePod's learning philosophy is exactly what you just said, and I am sure you believe it.  But honestly, I think that approach is adequate for some, but for most of us creating a strong foundation that is infused with some simple, practical theory is helpful.

Think of it this way.  When you started primary school in Australia, you could already speak fluent English, but you still had to learn grammar.  What would happen if you didn't?  Your oral and written English would have been riddled with errors. 

In the end, I want to speak and write this language well, and I feel part of the way of accomplishing this is to take a balanced approach.  Yes, actively speaking is better than filling out grammar sheets, but that doesn't mean that the weaker of the two should be abandoned.

Let me just share my learning theory:

• Practice as much as possible
• Integrate it in as many aspects of life as possible
• exposure, exposure, exposure
• Use more than one method to avoid feeling stagnant

And yes, less talking about Chinese in English, and more actual Chinese practice.  (I'm failing this part at the moment.)

Thanks though.  I really do appreciate your insight into your personal experience.  Who knows.  I may come around to your way of thinking.

Matt, your point is very well taken of course, no argument from me. Me personally, I simply appreciate Jiaojie getting back to us telling us this once how to say all those sentences in correct Chinese.  It really feels good to have that there.

Not so interested in the grammar rules myself, esp as I can't even explain English or Japanese grammar well at all.

Xiaophil,

           Whilst I understand that you are trying to get your head around Chinese, this approach may be causing you more difficulty than is necessary. Remember that this language is so different to English, it doesn't have tenses so trying to learn English tenses in Chinese doesn't work. I'd suggest trying to clear the English verb tenses from your mind and try to learn the Chinese 'time-words' and their uses from the Chinese perspective - that way you'll start thinking about these things in Chinese.

The defining moment for me learning Chinese (or any other language for that matter) was when I realised that I was thinking about what to say in Chinese, not translating it into Chinese from English.

I never systematically learned Chinese grammar, I simply cleared my mind of English and 'got a feel' for the rhythms of the language - this takes a lot of exposure. If you aren't in China, exposing yourself to exclusively Chinese movies, radio, tv, Cpod dialogues etc will help.

I know many people prefer to translate everything from English into the target language, but the longer they do this, the longer they keep themselves from true and natural understanding and usage of the target language.

That's my two cents.

Thanks lujiaojie.  Thanks a whole lot, actually.  Very, very good work.

I'm reposting this in my revised section.  Hope you don't mind.

Hi xiaophil ,

Present Tense
I read books.
我看书。(OK)

Present Continuous Tense
I am reading a book.
我在看书。(OK)
I am reading a book tomorrow.
我明天会看着书。Should be 我明天会看书。“着” used after a verb or adiective to indicate the continuation of a state.

Present Perfect Tense
I have read that book.
我看过那本书。(OK)

Present Perfect Continuous Tense
I have been reading that book.
我最近在看着那本书。should be 我最近在看那本书。no need to add “着”。could be 那本书我正看着呢。

Past Tense
I read that book.
我看了那本书。or  我看过那本书。

Past Continuous Tense
I was reading that book.
我以前看那本书。should be 那时我正在看那本书。那时means "at that time".

Past Perfect Tense
I had read that book.
我已经看了那本书了。or 我已经看过那本书了。

Past Perfect Continuous Tense
I had been reading that book.
我以前看着那本书了。should be 那时我一直在看那本书。

Future Tense
I will read that book.
我会看那本书。(ok)

Future Continuous Tense
I will be reading a book.
我会看着书。should be 我会看书。no need to add “着”。

Future Perfect Tense
I will have finished reading that book by 10 pm.
我十点会看完那本书了。should be 我10点会看完那本书。no need to add “了”。There is 会看完，not 已经看完了。“已经...了” is a sentence pattern.

Future Perfect Continuous Tense
I will have been reading that book for 2 weeks.
到那个时候我已经看了那本书两个星期。should be 到那个时候我已经看了两个星期那本书了。or 到那个时候，那本书我已经看了两个星期了。(There should be a "le" at the end of sentence to indicate Continuous.)

Okay, I'm working on a revision that should be up within the hour. 

Hi sebire

看好 usually means "think highly of ～, like, appreciate", just like 我看好这个地方/我看好他了。As for "座", yes, you are right. You can't say "他在座" or "他在座呢", buy interestingly you can say "他坐着呢". Pls don't ask me why!

Regarding Cassie's statement above:

我十点会看完那本书了

Is it also ok to say 看好 instead of 看完 to say you've finished?

Xiaophil, I think I was probably referring to an example in English that shows the distinction between the progressive and continuous aspect. You probably can't use 在 with 坐！Perhaps the action of sitting takes place far too quickly? I was reading that there is no equivalent of "he is dying" in Chinese because in Chinese, you're either dead or alive or about to die (要死了), but you can't be in the process of dropping dead. Maybe it's the same kind of thing?

我有点晕了，因为我只看懂了中文，呵呵！

Present Perfect Tense

I have read that book.

我看过那本书。(Is it okay to add 了 and say 我看过了那本书?)

if you add 了，maybe you could say it 那本书我看过了

Paulinrus,

I meant "I'll definitely be washing my hair at whatever time tomorrow he's asking me to come out with him". I probably meant a hui4 rather than a zai4 (or both?)

xiaophil, it was just a suspicion. I have a problem identifying which verbs take zhe and which don't.

The example I saw for sitting down was something like

Ta1men zai4 sha1fa1 shang4 zuo4 zhe(1?).

[From memory, I only glanced at it]

Excuse my lack of characters, this computer doesn't seem to have Chinese input. 

My two cents worth...

我看过那本书。(Is it okay to add 了 and say 我看过了那本书?) no need to add 了since 过 is an experiential marker.

我明天会看着书。(I’m really suspicious of using 着 in this sentence) this sentence is 'future continuous tense' Tomorrow I will be reading a book. However, the sentence is a bit unspecific not knowing which book you'll be reading tomorrow. so maybe better to specify with 那本书.  Or, the sentence as written could mean 'Tomorrow I will be studying'.

ps I still see the html markers

@xiaophil,

哈哈，that quote of yours rings a bell...we're using the same grammar book (Chinese Grammar by Claudia Ross). I also have her latest book "Modern Mandarin Chinese Grammar". Most keen to read Cpod's comments on your sentences.

@ Sebire,

I understand the first part of your sentence 如果他给我打电话问我明天晚上有没有空，but when you use 就说 and 在 I don't know what exactly you mean to say in the second half of the sentence  就说我一定在洗我的头发。 Did you mean I'll certainly be washing my hair (when he comes), or I'll then certainly wash my hair (otherwise, why bother!) 哈哈！

Xiaophil

Unfortunately the staff qualified to properly answer this question are either away (and very far from a computer) or focussed super-urgent production tasks that do not allow them time to participate in community discussion.

I will have someone answer your question and set the record straight ASAP.

Matt

xiaophil

I tried Firefox and the html code is not there. In IE7 (despite my cache cleaning) they are still visible. one mystery solved, but how is it that they can help you fix the post but not answer the questions?

I will consolidate, repost and ask for some help from the staff.  Unfortunately, It will probaby take 16 hours.  Hang in out there cpod buddies!

RJ, strange.  I can't see the html anymore.  I wonder what gives?  Anyway, will repost.

What really stands out here is the lack of any help from moderators. How about answering some of the questions starting withe the original 4 questions xiaophil asked about his examples. Perhaps you should re-post it xioaphil without the html garbage. I saw a claim that it was fixed but clearly it was not.

楼主:  Not to run out of patience already, but considering our collective thirst for clarification, perhaps it's worth PMing ... Pete? Haven't seen him around these few days so he's probably busy, but it seems like something we can do about these burning questions rather than just wait and hope ...

来看看楼主，想问下你有没有MSN呢？互相交流一下，我是中国的

sebire

Are you sure that 在 would be used to indicate sitting down?  I would suspect that 下 would be used to indicate sitting 'down', i.e. 我在坐下 would mean 'I am sitting down' and 我在坐 would indicate ‘I am sitting‘. You could very well be right.  I just would like to see your information or have someone else back you up.

Anyway, you can say 吃着.  I just looked it up in my textbook.  It gave an example using 吃 and everything.  My book says, "The suffix V-着 marks the duration or continuity of a situation.  V-着 serves as a suffix on activity verbs and on achievement verbs which have resulting states."  

不管怎么样，你干得非常好！

xiaophil,

An example I came across the difference between 在 and 着 is the equivalent of the difference between:

He is sitting down.

He is sitting.

The first being a 在 sentence as he is the middle of the sitting down action, and the second being a 着 type of sentence as his state of sitting is continuing.

I suspect you can't say 吃着 because eating is not an "open-ended action" and you aren't in a state of eating, but you can be in the middle of eating

加油，加油！

cassielin or anybody else.  (No need to ask cassielin or anybody else to work too hard.)

You wrote two sentences that made me curious:

"我明天会看一本书" and "我明天会看书"

The only differences is the measure word included in the first one.  Does this significantly change the meaning, or does it just make clear that there is one book and not two or more?  (I'm guessing no real change.)

You said 看着书 means staring.  Well, I can see that, but I think the problem here is that 看 has two meanings "look" and "read".  What if we make a new sentence using 吃, which to my knowledge has only one meaning: 我六点会吃着饭?  Does this mean "At 6 o'clock I am eating"?  Is this grammatically correct?  Would a Chinese person even say it?  It looks awkward to me.  （I think Chinese people would say: 我六点吃饭。）

Just thought of something.  Is there a difference between 我在看书 and 我看着书?  I always thought 在 and 着 performed the same function used this way.  But from your examples above, it appears that the first one means "I am reading a book," and the second one means "I am staring at a book."

顺便提一下，sebire,谢谢你的“grunt work”。

I just want to say thank you for everybody's answers, insights and general banter.  It appears this might attract more attention than I could have possibly dreamed. 

And Raygo, I really can't say that this takes the biscuit, but I did give it a real go.

Hi xiaophil and sebire,

I am going to read a book tomorrow.

我明天会看一本书。（我明天打算看书。）

OR

I am reading a book tomorrow.

我明天会看书。（Sebire is right, no need to add a "着"here.  "看着" means look at or stare at.）

I will be reading a book （at 10 o'clock）.

十点的时候我会在看书。

I will have been reading that book for two weeks (by then/by August).

到（那个时候/八月），我就会看那本书两个星期了。

I will have finished reading that book by 10pm.

我十点会看完那本书了。（No need to add "了" here since you already used a “完”before to mean "finish"）.

I have read that book.

我看过那本书。(It is okay to add 了 and say我看过那本书了。But same as the last example, it is no need to add “了”since "过" and "完" both mean something has been done!) In fact, to add “了”at the end of a sentence just want to emphasize加强语气.

I  had been reading that book.

我以前看着那本书了。(I think you should translate it into 我之前一直看/读那本书。) "had been doing"表示这个状态一直持续。

Hope that can help.

changye said:- "This is one of the best threads I ever seen here in Chinesepod forum."

Huh? But there's nothing in it about Klingons! Or zombies! Or King Crimson!

Seriously well done xiaophil, looks like you've hit a six. (Err.. maybe I should say a home run.)

@lovelygreentea, thanks so much for your kind words.You are just like your tea! ;)

Hi rjberki

Thanks for the article. I'm afraid that scientists are always happy to discourage adults from learning a new language, hehe. As a Japanese, I feel very honored to see the "R and L" pronunciation problem of Japanese people in the article, which seems to be a well-known example, thankfully. I'm willing to admit that's a fact, and furthermore Japanese people are very bad at distinguishing "n" from "ng". In my case, the "n/ng" problem is more serious than "L/R" one.

Hi zhenlijiang

I have a feeling the conclusive word is going to come from an English-native expert of Mandarin.

You might be right. So I just hope that our Chinesepod teacher team, which consists of both English and Chinese native speakers, will give us answers soon. This is one of the best threads I ever seen here in Chinesepod forum.

Guys, don't miss it!

xiaophil, doesn't 我明天会看着书 mean "I'm going to stare at a book tomorrow" rather than read?

I did some Googling, and found the following example:

要是你明天十二点去他家，他一定正在吃饭。

If you go to his house at 12 pm tomorrow, he'll definitely be having his lunch.

It then goes on to say that the future progressive aspect needs to have an adverb (in this case 一定).

My attempt:

如果他给我打电话问我明天晚上有没有空，就说我一定在洗我的头发。

(Corrections very welcome - inspired by this week's ellie lesson!)

I decided to forget about English grammar (not that I knew anything in the first place) when I read this:

"While inflectional languages like English are concerned with marking the time of the action in relation to the time of the remark in which it is brought up, Chinese is more concerned with the developmental stage of an action. A time expression alone or even the context itself is sufficient to show time, such as the past, the present or the future. Therefore, inflection is not at all necessary and is non-existent in Chinese. In a given time frame, in Chinese an action is viewed with an emphasis on a particular phase along the course of its progress, which can be its beginning, its continuation, or its completion. “Each of these stages is referred to as an ‘aspect.’ A past action has all these aspects, so does a present action and a future action. Therefore, in English, the ‘perfective,’ or the ‘completive,’ may appear in the present tense, the past tense or the future tense."

Lots of examples:

http://chinese.rutgers.edu/class_content_simplified_chinese/level1/class30-to-39/class35/aux2_cs.htm

@zhenlijiang

I agree with you and I believe we all are able (and very capable) to learn a second language, you just have to work at it.

@raygo

I always love reading your  comments on cpod and thanks for all the great help you provide to all of us,   I thought your comment about getting a chinese mom was funny, I have heard and read that chinese wives/girlfriends dont necessarily make the best tutors and besides its better that you dont suggest that men learning chinese go out and get a chinese wife like you did, What if they already have a non chinese wife ? she could get pretty upset about that?

zhenlijiang, I think good progress is just generally ensured by being competitive and stubborn and believing in your ultimate superiority over the vexed problem. I refuse to be beaten by the following: babies, computers, Chinese and maths. Babies can't even feed themselves, computers can only count to 1, a billion people can speak Chinese and maths is mainly letters. Clearly, none of these things are hard! Delusion gets you far :D

xiaophil, my grammar book seems to agree with you for all sentences that do not contain a 着. I don't get 着, so you may well be right.

Seconding (thirding? fourthing?) xiaophil's request for comments on the sentences in his original post. I'd also very much like to know once and for all about these things.

(But these questions are also about very tricky English grammar points that we take for granted--I mean, can you imagine trying to get a grip on the Future Perfect and all these different tenses as a learner of English? I have a feeling the conclusive word is going to come from an English-native expert of Mandarin.)

Sebire I like your attitude. While we may fall short of our wildest delusions, we are also likely to make better progress by stopping less to bemoan our current (lack of) ability, right?

不管怎样，我们加油吧！

Thanks a lot rjberki，your explanation is as perfect as mine, haha. I'll read that article some time later.

I have a problem of distinguishing till and until.

小phil，也谢谢你。

再纠正你两个错误：多感谢您（应该说：多谢，或者“谢谢你”。大家都是年轻人，就别说“您”了，哈哈。）

你有如何的英文问题，请问我。（应该说：你有什么英语问题，请问我。“如何”是“怎么样”的意思，是一个古汉语，ancient Chinese，用在正式formal或者幽默humorous的地方。）

我是中文老师，北京人。很高兴认识大家。除了中文老师和科学家，没有人懂中文语法。哈哈

Thanks to all who have commented so far.  There have been some good pointers and insights.  (And zoekoo, you are right about my grammar mistake.)

Perhaps someone can take a look at my original translations given in the post?  Pretty please.  (I know--so pathetically demanding.)

4. 我们两天以前以来在这里一顿也没吃了 ithink this sentence have some mistakes~ “以前”and“以来”is different from the mean。One is previous，another is since.we can't put them togther.在这里 also have mistake，来这里is more better。I think you want express ：We have come here without foods for two days。right？so i think the “我们来到这儿有两天没吃饭了”is better~hope it can help you~~嘻嘻

加油 sebire, but the babies have got something that we grownups haven't. Moms and dads! ;)

Well many of us do in fact have moms and dads, but maybe not teaching us Mandarin.

I went and got a Chinese wife, but I should have just got a Chinese mom! Ah well, least my little chip off the old block should have a good chance of winning this game!

Interesting article RJ. :)

RJ, xiaophil, self-delusion is the way forward. I refuse to believe my adult brain cannot cope with something a baby can do. I am totally not being beaten by a baby!!!

diwaien

我上次有点急，所以忘了提你有如何的英文问题，请问我。顺便提一下，您是个老师还是个对外语有兴趣的人？

rjberki

That article is very interesting, and yes, a little depressing because I would like to think someday Mandarin will flow off my tongue as easily as English.  Well, we can just forge ahead and see what happens.

Wow, great exercise

Xiaophil - you did better than I.

diwaien - Your meaning was perfectly clear, and the sentences near perfect, but in the spirit of two way learning I offer the following changes in your english sentences (I got the easy job): 

2 "He hasn’t been to the company for a week till now".

(you dont need the "till" - using until implies he has showed up now but was missing the entire previous week. Without the until it means he has been missing for a week, and is still missing.)

He hasn’t been to the company for a week now.

3 "He hadn’t had meal for more than 2 days when he was in the mountain."

"on" the mountain is correct, dont forget the "a"

He hadn't had a meal for more than two days while on the mountain.

or to avoid the "hadnt had" we more likely would say

He hadn't eaten for more than two days while on the mountain.

Great stuff, language is such a complex and subtle thing. It is depressing to note that I will never learn a second language nearly as good as the first. Here is an interesting article that touches on why:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_med_healthbeat_bilingual_tots

oh, and diwaien, thanks so much for helping.

diwaien老师，我明白您的解释，多感谢您！

小phil，你中文不错，知道不少:) 加油啊！

1. 我上个月一个星期也没上班. （一个星期也没means didn’t go to work even a week）

他上个月一个星期没上班。

2. 他一个星期没来公司上班了.（写得好！）

3. 他在山上的时候,两天以上没吃饭.（remember the use of 多）

两天多没吃饭。

4. 我们两天以前以来在这里一顿也没吃了.（不说“来在这里”，可以说“来到这里”，或者“来这儿”；and pay attention to the standard structure Topic + a certain period of time + 没 + Verb 了）

我们来这儿以后，两天没吃饭了。

5. 我五年没看见他了.（嗯，对！）

很不错！记住，中文是topic + description的语言，这个能帮助你更有感觉，如果还有问题，请问。

Hi diwaien

我试试

1. 我上个月一个星期也没上班.

2. 他一个星期没来公司上班了.

3. 他在山上的时候,两天以上没吃饭.

4. 我们两天以前以来在这里一顿也没吃了.

5. 我五年没看见他了.

谢谢

I have a feeling there are many mistakes.

@xiaophil, no worries! It's a great post! I updated it, it's now OK!

Practice:

Some of them need "了" and some of them don't, try to speak them in Chinese:

1 Last month he didn’t work for a week.

2 He hasn’t been to the company for a week till now.

3 He hadn’t had meal for more than 2 days when he was in the mountain.

4 We haven’t had a meal for 2 days since we came here.

5 It has been five years since I last saw him.

Hi xiaophil, let me help you explain the question of "没" and "了" combining.

Sub+a certain period of time+没+Verb 了

means up to now, it has been a certain period of time you havn't done something.

For example,

我 两天 没 睡觉 了。

It has been two days since last time I slept.

I havn't slept for two days.

我两年没看见xiaophil 了。

It has been two years since I saw xiaophil last time.

I havn't seen xiaophil  for two years.

Remember, the basic use of 了 is to declare or report a news that something has been completed.

In this case, 了 shows "two years" has been completed, it has been two years.

Hopefully it will be helpful.

Hi xiaophil

This is just a great post. I also very much look forward to seeing replies preferably from native Chinese speakers who are proficient in English.

P/S. Maybe you wrote this post using WORD, didn't you? If so, pls use the "Paste from Word" button in the toolbar.

Chinesepod help!

I have no idea why there is all that html garbage in the first part.  Can someone go in and delete that html code?  leave the rest.  Thanks.