Commenting Policy: Some More Explanation

Interesting fact: With threaded comments you can reply without joining the group.

I never really saw the point of not allowing people who aren't in a group reply to the topics. What is the advantage of that?

tal

Avast alerted me to a virus in your link.

Perhaps today is a good day to die.

When we were kids it always used to tickle us pink to watch the Klingons on Star Trek. Round here Cling-ons is another name for Clinkers. Those are what you get adhereing to the hairs on your bottom if you don't wipe it properly. Anyone of a sensitive disposition should not read the preceding sentence.

Gives a whole new take on "Klingons on the Starboard Bow".

I think studying a language requires one to study the culture.  As we know, Klingons are known for being impulsive and are not known for reasoning.  Therefore, if any of you know Klingon, I think you should play the part and freely post. 

Malaka! I think that proves my point!

Interesting that "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts", comes not from Homer but from Virgil's Aeneid. He was always my favorite amongst the Thunderbirds pilots too.

Good to see Klingon back on the boards. I've been waiting so long for a suitably gratuitous moment to post a link to Hamlet's great soliloquy in that language.

O O O O that Shakespeherian rag-
It's so elegant
So intelligent...

mickeytoon,

Did we ever get to the bottom of the 'comments in Klingon' debate? Last time I dipped into these discussions it was being seriously frowned upon for reasons of high drivel content.

..well whatever the outcome of that I'd just like to point out that Na'vi has no relationship whatsoever to Klingon,and thus any negative rulings on Klingon have no bearing on Na'vi at all.As far as I am aware Na'vi is a language isolate and therefore will need a ruling all on it's own.

So we have (I think) established that there is no policy restricting comments made in Greek; as long as they do not contain machine translatable expletives. Did we ever get to the bottom of the 'comments in Klingon' debate? Last time I dipped into these discussions it was being seriously frowned upon for reasons of high drivel content.

So we have (I think) established that there is no policy restricting comments made in Greek; as long as they do not contain machine translatable expletives. Did we ever get to the bottom of the 'comments in Klingon' debate? Last time I dipped into these discussions it was being seriously frowned upon for reasons of high drivel content.

Cheers mate!  Catch you later.

轰轰

你有很好的幽默感 ：）

How do you know when a plane-load of pommies has landed ?

When they switch the engines off the whining continues.

brick，

the affectionate use of 'git'

hehe,oh right..yeah,that does ring a bell now.It's been several years now.Thanks for your explanation.

annual Punch a Pom Week

..hey,now when's that on and how did I miss it?...you do understand I'm Aussie now don't you? Must be in Rugby season I guess.Nah,just kidding mate..love you guys.Sorry again for missing the vibe.Jiayou.

Baba, you old git :  Haha !  Μαλάκα is also used the same way "nigga" is used between urban blacks in the west .... in the sense of 'brother' or 'bro' - similar to the affectionate use of 'git'. But it might not be wise to call your boss, or someone you don't like a git - same as calling them a bastard.

Nice to see that you can read between the lines; for a minute there I thought it was the annual Punch a Pom Week.

The world would be poorer without that pun, to be sure.

brick,

Just thought I'd become the god you invoked, Tal. No hostility at all.

..good to hear mate.In retrospect I'm sorry guys for over-reacting and misreading some playful gibing.I remember hearing "git" a lot when I was in the UK,always used with great expression and effect in a way that only you guys can pull off [none used against me to my knowledge but maybe I can join the ranks too,hehe].Yeah,you've gotta feel sorry for the Greeks with that saying.It all hails back to the Trojan horse story though doesn't it?

Simon,

yeah,it was clearly a clever pun on "beware of Greeks bearing gifts".I think when you think of a good pun like that it's very hard to resist the temptation not to post it.

Hey, you're on the ball ! Lets not characterise Greeks as swearing gits, though.  It's rather vulgar.

I think Tal was making a pun on the old saying "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts". And a very good pun, at that.

Blimey. Magic translating machines online ? That's some faux pas I've committed ! Not much point in me learning Greek, then.

By the way,'git' is British slang for   i) A contemptible or foolish person  ii) A bastard (as an insult)

Just thought I'd become the god you invoked, Tal. No hostility at all.

There's no policy on Greek. There is a language-blind one on vulgarities. Like Baba says--online translators! In this day and age.

kimiik: That is a fun character, made awesome by the addition of the descriptive "门" following it. Very educational. Thank you, that goes straight to my SRS deck. :)

Using the chinese word 肛门 would have been much more educational here with the "heavy" semantics brought by the rare character 肛 (gāng) 肉+工

:-)

O tempora! O mores!

Come on guys;why the hostility? You're both clever,and both have so much positive to contribute but this seems uncalled for.Brick,I know zippo Greek but it took me about 10 seconds with an online translator to work that out.You know that I'm sure.

Tal. As one old git to another:

μαλάκα!

Don't think I could get away with that here in Chinese.  I just found the perfect medium with which to insult people without them knowing it.

Oh happy days !

Beware of Greek swearing gits. 

hellothebrick

I guess they wouldn't like it, but I have to admit that I hope you try ;).  Greek is a language I would like to learn.

Is there any policy on posting in Greek ?

@catherinem

Great to hear that the comments policy for the Intermediate level has not changed. Now, could you please inform the counsellors that indeed they do not necessarily need to write Pinyin or English when they converse on the Intermediate board. I notice that their comments have completely dried up so apparently there could be misunderstanding on their part same as ours here. 

Maybe next time in order to prevent misconception/perception in the community such as this one, Cpod need not post on the boards when it deletes inappropriate stuff. Just delete whatever and email/inform the people involved and not tell the general community that things have been deleted. I think most Poddies are like me, not even aware when things have been deleted, and perhaps don't even care. It was Cpod postings on the Intermediate board on "comment policy" and "Will make sure to include pinyin in the answers from now on" that caused this misunderstanding and the subsequent ruckus. 

Just to put to rest some of the hypothesizing going on here:

(1) Our commenting policy hasn't changed.

(2) John was not suggesting that our CPod counselors stop commenting in Chinese. Their contributions are a valuable aspect of the service we provide here.

(3) John's comment was a way to explain why people might have seen comments disappearing from mostly newbie and ele lessons recently - these comments were posted by native Chinese speakers and intimidated learners and distracted users from the content of the lessons. His comment was also an attempt to notify these commenters that their posts were deleted and that there are general guidelines for posting in our commenting policy (they did not respond to our many attempts to contact them via email).

While I appreciate the conversations about the commenting policy explored in this thread, I'd like to remind people that our commenting policy was designed to help establish a warm, inviting community in which learners can come together and improve their Chinese. We only hope to continue this going forward.

Contemplate if you will the countless fruitless man-hours wasted in discussions like this by people who claim to have insufficient time to study Mandarin.

I should make it clear that I am not rallying against the current commenting policy.  Their current policy doesn't require anyone to use pinyin and translations.  What I am doing here is debating what the ideal policy should be.  I think there is little I can say that is new, so I'll stop debating my old points unless something new arises that changes the game.  That said, even though the official policy has not changed, I wouldn't be surprised if the staff has been or will be told to limit comments to hanzi with pinyin and translations.  That would make me sad.  Okay, here is one last question/point/suggestion (I hope):

How come CPod doesn't promote the use of pop-up dictionaries? 

I think it would make everyone happy.  They aren't perfect, but they do take away 90% of the guessing, and of course it will free up the message board a bit because people won't write a message three times (if people want to follow John's suggestion).  Actually, as far as I know, the guy that developed perakun only makes money from donations.  Perhaps CPod could collaborate with him.

Re: using Hanzi/Pinyin in intermediate lessons, the actual policy is as follows:

Out of consideration for Newbie and Elementary users, please provide English translations along with any Chinese (characters or pinyin) written in Newbie and Elementary lesson discussions. Blatant disregard for this courtesy may result in your comments being removed by ChinesePod staff.

Is it just me, but I don't see any part of the policy that says, "Intermediate lessons must include English/Pinyin?"  All I see is Elementary and Newbie.  Or is the policy even more inconspicuous than even Changye could imagine?  

That said, I'm mostly with RJ on this one.  This seems to be a bit of a tempest in a teapot?   (“茶壶里的台风?”  嘿嘿，大概“蜀犬吠日” 比较好。但好像它的意思一点点不一样。) 

xiaophil, I'm not talking about the lowest common denominator (or don't think I am), but I'm saying that at intermediate level, perhaps a bit more laissez-faire might be in order. So some folks will end up posting in hanzi, some provide pinyin, some in english - without the compulsion to do one or t'other.... pretty much as happens at the momen, in fact.

[p.s. - if you want to post in Greek, rjberki (ancient,  modern or Old Testament), then feel free...]

Its all Greek to me. But as you wish.

    Herakles, please.

Memorising thousands of characters is a bit laborious, but not as bad as mucking-out the Augean stables. Trust me.

Guys, Hercules,

Where did it say the policy was going to change? John only said he has the right to delete rambing irrelevant hanzi. I think you are making way too much of this.

hellotherebrick

I don't see how learning Chinese can be anything but a Herculean endeavour if one wants to really learn it.  There is just too much to learn.  The way I see it, if a person has modest aims, that's fine, but that isn't any reason to dumb it down for those who really are going all the way, and in addition make it so tough for the native Chinese teachers that they scale back their comments. 

As Changye, Simon and some others mentioned...

There are other places we can communicate purely in Chinese.  Fair enough.  If the policy happens to change, I will live with it.  But for the life of me, I just cannot understand the value of placing so many conditions for communicating using Chinese on an intermediate level message board.

Paulinurus

Perhaps you are right.  However, I did notice in the new intermediate lesson, the only two staff members who commented didn't use pinyin.  Then again, it was only two comments and simple ones at that.

@xiaophil

Are you sure that John is including Chinese staff in his category of 'non-learners'?  I was thinking he just meant the Chinese guests who lurk for a day or two leaving comments.  Perhaps we need that to be clarified

John's words and what I've seen happened on the Intermediate boards makes me think that John meant to include the Chinese staff in his term "non-learners".  

John said: On a recent lesson, there has been some discussion of the ChinesePod commenting policy, particularly with regards to how much Chinese in comments is acceptable at different levels.

He is referring to Cpod's "commenting policy" and with regards to "how much Chinese in comments is acceptable at different levels". So it is quite clear that he figures there should only be a certain amount of Chinese comments being acceptable at the Intermediate level. Prior to him suddenly bringing up this issue now, we've always thought it is OK to have as much Chinese as available from Intermediate board onwards, subject of course to pertaining to the lesson topic.

I saw his intention to change the comments policy in the Intermediate level first manifested in the Wrapping A Gift board. The Chinese staff were as usual conversing and replying in Chinese without Pinyin when a Poddie commented that he wished Pinyin was accompanied with the Chinese. A Cpod marketing staff responded:"Will make sure to include pinyin in the answers from now on".

As for the Chinese guests comments, their Chinese comments too are typically related to the lesson topic. The more Chinese comments related to the lesson topic, the merrier, I'd say, and it's really puzzling why a Chinese school would want to size down the amount of Chinese conversations. It's as if there has been a clinical study and conclusive evidence that only a certain amount of Chinese is good for learners at the Intermediate level.  

I guess that Chinese-only comments will keep coming in newbie/elementary threads, partly (or mainly?) because the commenting policy is so inconspicuous. I always wonder if it's intentional or there are some technical reasons for this.

I'm not a busy guy, but even I don't have enough time for embarassing poor newcomers by warning them not to post Chinese-only comments in newbie/ele threads. Oh, I've just come up with a good idea. Why don't you display a floating warning? hehe

I think that curiosity is one thing that fosters (quicker) learning. One reason why my listening skills developped faster than other things that I want to know what is going on around me (and no one provides pinyin or translations). If things are too easy it might even hamper learning is my opinion. Easy come, easy go, if you have to struggle for it, it will stick better somehow is my opinion :-)

Joking aside, honestly I personally don't care much about what commenting policy stipulates. After all, it's up to Chinesepod. I try my best to follow the rules they set, provided that they are clearly shown in the policy. I just don't want to hear "a murmur" from admins. Anyway, there are still a lot of places left for posting Chinese-only comments here.

Posting also SHOULD be easy, hehe.

I disagree with some of the above opinions.

 Learning SHOULD be easy, not an herculean endeavour; anything which makes it easier to progress along a CONTINUUM is to be welcomed. Additionally, not everyone wants to learn Hanzi; for many the focus is on being able to speak Chinese.

 Anything which facilitates the most productive use of time for the average user with, say, only half an hour or so each day to devote to learning Chinese is a good idea.

I agree with John's proposal.

Thinkbuddha

You have a point here:

One of the problems is that "intermediate" can mean lots of things - people's skills don't progress at the same level.

This is a difficult problem to solve.  However, I don't think the solution is to lower everything to the lowest common denominator.  The intermediate level is a crossroads, so perhaps its borders need to be a bit fuzzy, but still, there should be limits.

Simon

Yeah, CPod can't please everyone.  But even so, they must have academic credibility.  If they always lower the bar so that the lower levels can easily join in, that's just silly.  But yeah, I know you probably agree in plinciple to that.  We just don't agree as to where to place the bar.

Hey paulinurus

Are you sure that John is including Chinese staff in his category of 'non-learners'?  I was thinking he just meant the Chinese guests who lurk for a day or two leaving comments.  Perhaps we need that to be clarified.

zhenlijiang and I are on the same page I think.  At risk of starting to talk in circles, I will just bring attention to one thing that I think she said much better than me.

I don't agree that it's easy for most of us to provide English translations. Perhaps this is presumptuous of me but how many of the counselors here would find that easy? They're highly qualified and very good at what they do--teaching Chinese. They're not translators and most of them are not native-level in English. Like xiaophil I too hope that asking for English doesn't deter them from posting their comments in the lesson discussions.

Anyway, this is how I look at how levels should be distinguished:

Newbie: for people who know nothing or next to nothing about Chinese.

Elementary: for people who have a very basic foundation and who are able to have very basic dialogs, e.g. "Where is the bathroom?"  "I want the one with chicken," etc.

Intermediate: for people who already have the ability to hold conversations on a variety of simple subjects.

My argument is, if someone is so intimidated by characters that he or she won't even try, then that person really isn't ready to communicate as one should be able to do at the intermediate level.  If a person is at the intermediate level, that person should feel challenged.  We shouldn't look at a challenge as a sign that something is wrong.  Furthermore, if at the upper-intermediate level students are just getting to the level where pinyin and English translations are not necessary, then it shows CPod is not really pushing us hard enough.  As I said before, I took Chinese lessons in China.  Many of my upper-elementary textbooks didn't have pinyin, let alone English translations. I just find it hard to believe that only the last two levels should be pinyin/translation free.

I too don't understand and am completely puzzled why John has suddenly made it an issue that written Chinese in the Intermediate board should be accompanied with Pinyin. Even if there was a sudden rash of Chinese text in the Intermediate boards, what's wrong with that? Why the necessity to stem out the Chinese text? Infact, I was enjoying reading the Chinese chit chat among the counsellors and poddies, and suddenly this is a no no? Isn't over 300 Newbie lessons and already over 280 Elementary lessons (with more to come) sufficient to pamper the Poddies who require translations and Pinyin?  

It is such a burden to write Pinyin and this requirement will certainly discourage poddies to practice conversations in Chinese text. And I'm sure the counsellors will also cut down on their Chinese comments if they have to spend time writing Pinyin plus English. So all Poddies past the Elementary level will lose out observing and learning how qualified natives express themselves in a practical day-to-day manner. Who benefits from the counsellors having to write Pinyin? Those who can't spend a few seconds using online dictionaries to translate the chinese text?

As for which level is a good start for Poddies to start practicing and writing Chinese text, I would say for sure it is in the Intermediate level. Just compare the lesson sentences in the Intermediate level to those in the Elementary level and you'll see that the Intermediate level has sentence structures which not only convey more complex expressions but also idioms. Why wait for Upper Intermediate before you start letting go of the Pinyin training wheels?  You might just be too grown up (mentally) then and missed the opportunity to learn how to ride due to the fear of falling and failing.  

One would think "But what's the harm done requiring the counsellors to write Pinyin... that would just be additional benefit for me, me,me". But life is not like that. Can't have the cake and eat it too. Pinyin is an extra burden, so they just won't bake the cakes, or as many.

And as for learning Chinese writing via the Chinese forums, just let me know which forums discuss topics in a timely and related fashion to the Cpod lesson materials, then I can say forgetabout the Chinese on Cpod boards. Off course, I might also say forgetabout it if there is too much coddling going on here. Important to spread the love around so that competition flourishes.    

Besides that, which is my main point, I agree with thinkbuddha that Intermediate includes a very diverse group of learners with varying needs.
I came to CPod as an intermediate learner. Like many Japanese my listening comprehension/speaking is much weaker than writing/reading, reading being the easiest. It takes a mighty effort for me to express myself in Chinese, takes so much time and energy and a lot of dictionary use, to put together the simplest comment in Chinese. But that is the level of effort I have to make, if I hope to improve at all. So it often wipes me out. And I just may not have the energy left after that to provide an English translation, much less pinyin (though providing pinyin would be good training for myself, to get the tones right once and for all).

I personally consider it lazy and counterproductive for an intermediate learner to require English translations for any and all Chinese; think we should be using our dictionaries, asking people, etc., working hard to read and understand things written in Chinese, that that is how we learn and make progress. That's just me of course, but in all my (off-line, conventional classroom) learning experience that is how intermediate learners study. Yeah it does suddenly gets a lot steeper in Intermediate! That's how it is. That's why most of us spend so many years toiling here, if we're serious (and human. there are those super-human learners who move upward more quickly).

I don't agree that it's easy for most of us to provide English translations. Perhaps this is presumptuous of me but how many of the counselors here would find that easy? They're highly qualified and very good at what they do--teaching Chinese. They're not translators and most of them are not native-level in English. Like xiaophil I too hope that asking for English doesn't deter them from posting their comments in the lesson discussions.

It is not the same thing as having the counselors' Chinese participation in lesson discussions, to go off this site (or even on-site, off the lesson discussions) and seek interaction with native speakers at some 贴吧; of course we can all do that. As we know, native speakers in any language chatting in such online forums are often not mindful of grammatical accuracy and their posts often rife with typos and errors. Becoming accustomed to casual, slangy use of Chinese is of course very educational and valuable in itself. However if I could only have either one or the other, at this stage as an Intermediate learner still working to build a solid foundation, it's a no-brainer. I want the colloquial and chatty but correct, good Chinese from our native speaker teachers, want good models to look at and emulate. Slangy and "internet Chinese" I can always learn later--on a solid foundation. But trying to move forward and upward without a solid foundation is defeatist.

新年好！

I wonder why this was not written in Chinese as well? Why only English?

Guys,

[comment edited]

This is not a Newbie or Elementary lesson, so not all the same rules apply, but please remember that posting Chinese and English is much better, and adding pinyin after Chinese is saintly.

Thanks.

I for one didn't get that the intent there was "there was a recent rash of all-Chinese comments from non-learners, and I was simply trying to stem that.  It's all about maintaining an atmosphere of learning for each level". How many such offending "non-learners" are going to see that and know that means them? I read it and thought users like me were being told we're inconsiderate if we don't provide English translations with our efforts to express ourselves in Chinese in Intermediate lesson discussions.
And I did not see the rash of all-Chinese comments from non-learners so do not know what exactly what the problem was or what was deemed necessary to delete.

In any case why not put up a friendly, welcoming and conspicuous notice that will be read by native Chinese speakers who come to this site (they are the non-learners I assume?) telling them what the policy is and why it's in place, in Chinese? Doesn't that seem like a good idea, am I missing something?

One of the problems is that "intermediate" can mean lots of things - people's skills don't progress at the same level. So - as a compulsive skritterer and reader - my reading is pretty good, and my listening is not bad, but I am more or less a stuttering mess when it comes to producing the language (hopefully a few weeks in China later this year should at least take me up a notch in that respect). But others may be the other way round.

Perhaps - particularly at the intermediate stage - we need to have a policy that is flexible enough to take account of all these differences. I can see John's point that at Newbie and Ele level, English should also be included as a courtesy, and the weighting should be towards writing hanzi at UI and Advanced level (although I occasionally stray into UI territory as the air's bracing up there, and my occasional comment over there has been largely in English).

But in the end intermediate is, well... intermediate (and it's a pretty broad category too!); so it makes sense to have a big old mixture at that level. Bring on the hanzi, I say. And the pinyin. And the English, too.

Xiaophil: I agree with you, really. It's just that I don't think that the Intermediate level is the right level to do that. I think that the UI level is. I base this on how the lessons are taught, with complete translations on the Intermediate level and few translations on the UI level. It just makes sense to me to keep it the same in the comments.

Then there's also the 中文吧 threads, isn't there?

CPod can't please everyone, anyway. I'm sure no matter how the policy looks, some people will be happy. I usually skip the stuff written in hanzi, but read the translations if there are any. Of course I want more translations. Others feel like they would post less if they have to translate their hanzi, since it's a bother. Of course they don't want that.

Hey everybody,

Maybe it is because I have learned Chinese from teachers who cannot speak English well that I look at the issue differently from some of you.  I feel like my most valuable lessons came not from the teacher telling me 'how to speak Chinese' but rather when we just talked in class.  Many times I was lost, but later, somehow, I started to understand.  I feel it is part of the learning process to not understand all the time.  If we understand all the time, we probably are learning too slowly.  For this reason, I feel like intermediate level is the right level to drop the training wheels, i.e. pinyin and translations.  Simon is right, there are other places to chat with natives.  Actually, I have been thinking of pursuing those venues, but for the life of me, I still don't understand why CPod can't be that place too, at least to a certain degree.

Anyway, if I can't get my fix in the comment section, I will find another way.  No biggie.

Pauley

Glad that worked out for you.  I prefer the perakun add-on for Firefox if you still want to try others.  If you so happen to try it and have trouble installing the dictionary, let me know.  I should be able to help you.

xiaophil

  i installed the mdbg pop up chinese today....something i should of done years ago....thanks for giving me good advice ..this will help me improve my reading heaps...especially chinese news...i am slowly becoming better at using the computer...

xiaophil

actually you are right..i livei n china and my computer is all in chinese as my wife uses it and i have been unable to download a pop up dictionary...but next time a younger computer expert comes to my home i will try and get one downloaded....this would solve the problem...i also agree that it would be better to look at pop up dictionary than pinyin...which to me is only good for pronunciation

Hey rj!

Good thoughts. I was surprised when this issue was raised by John, and I just merrily  translated as necessary when some of the more archaine 汉字 appeared.

I do like John's delete policy when and if it is necessary. Otherwise, if the comment contains useful information albeit somewhat of a puzzle at times to extract, I'm happy with it.

This makes me think of Pete's 唐诗 lessons. I never did find out where I could find the old meanings of some of the characters. But, still this was for me one of the highlights of CPod's creative side. And the lesson discussions were amazing.

Since my formal graduate school education was in mathematics, I enjoy hard problems, and so, I like these long Chinese commentaries. And, with Changye there to reveal some of the sublties, all always seems fine to me.

Bill

Rjberki is wise. Also, I think pinyin is a bit unnecessary. It's a pain to write and its benefits are slim. However, a translation in English isn't too tiring to write and it will immensly help an intermediate learner to make sense of the sentence, just like in the lessons. Instead of "What does this mean?" you get "How does this mean that?". This would be much more helpful to an intermediate learner than only the hanzi.

your'e both right. if a small tidbit of chinese learning can be gleaned from the comments - great, but really the learning material is the lesson. The comment section is where one can come up for air and ask questions and get answers in the language he or she understands best. Less confusion this way and then back to studying. As simple simon (sorry simon) says, there are plenty of places to experience real chinese. Here it gets sprinkled in at an amount proportional to the level. Also ok. The comments are not the end-all and be-all of chinese learning. I think this issue gets way too much press.

Simon,

It is not that simple, really!

"There are many Chinese forums with lots of Chinese people chatting with each other. I'm sure you can find them. I've looked at some interesting posts at Baidu, which has a forum section. Completely free of charge."

I'm very aware of the Chinese forums. However, they are very different and very difficult to learn from compared to the discussions at Cpod's board simply because (a) the board discussions stick to a particular topic of interest i.e. relating to the lesson at hand, and (b) the counsellors and natives commenting on Cpod's board have the perspective that readers are learners and thus would frame their sentences so that readers can more easily understand.

"In addition, teaching is simply a lot more efficient when done in a language the learner understands. Teaching Chinese by talking Chinese is simply not efficient until the learner knows Chinese (which intermediate learners don't)."

Teaching has already been done in the lessons podcast (numerous times on the particle 了 John, how about the many other parts of grammar?) and more teaching when poddies ask questions on the boards. I'm referring here to the casual conversations on the topic matter... which if done in Hanzi on the topic matter will greatly expand our learning and give us the wings to fly earlier. For example, on the lesson of Buying A Gift, wouldn't you like more simple sentences and short stories in Hanzi of personal experiences to expand on this topic? You cannot get this by joining an outside all Chinese boards.

Paulinurus: There are many Chinese forums with lots of Chinese people chatting with each other. I'm sure you can find them. I've looked at some interesting posts at Baidu, which has a forum section. Completely free of charge.

I addition, teaching is simply a lot more efficient when done in a language the learner understands. Teaching Chinese by talking Chinese is simply not efficient until the learner knows Chinese (which intermediate learners don't).

It's quite simple, actually. In Newbie and Ellie, teaching is done in English, as you will notice if you listen to a lesson. In Intermediate lessons, teaching is done in Chinese by Jenny, which is then translated by John. In Upper Intermediate, teaching is done mostly in Chinese, with occasional clarifications in English. At Advanced, I assume it's all Chinese.

There is a reason for this, of course, and it seems to me that this style of teaching by levels has been very effective. I've never heard complaints of all the Chinese used in the lessons being translated into English. Using the exact same levels in the comments as in the lessons seems to me to be very logical. Someone at the Intermediate level is best served by Chinese together with English translation, or they would be at another level. I think it's quite simple.

EDIT: Man, I sure overused the word "simple". Sorry about that.

John,

When you used the term "non-learners", I think you have included the Cpod counsellors as well. I've learnt a ton of additional and valuable Chinese from their casual conversations among themselves or with other poddies on the lesson topic. You can't buy lessons of Chinese teachers having practical conversations in Hanzi with students..... these are precious real-life lessons...... actual day to day language in short sentences by teachers chatting with students or among themselves completely in Hanzi. When I don't understand the Hanzi, I simply use MDGB. It takes only a few seconds for any Hanzi to be translated into pinyin and into English. The translation is not where the real learning is (although used as a red herring by whining learners who are too lazy to help themselves) ..... the real learning is in figuring out the sentence structure and why as such.

So any ruling of yours that will de-motivate the free flow of conversations in Hanzi by Cpod counsellors among themselves or with poddies is a misguided action. Even comments of the occasional transient Chinese natives during the one week trial period have many a times added to my learning.

Instead of stemming written Hanzi, it should be the other way around. If indeed the goal is to promote learning Chinese, the ruling should be to ban all conversations in English from Intermediate upwards. After all, what Chinese will learners learn when poddies converse tons in English? Why is there a policy for pinyin and English translations when people write in Hanzi and not the other way around? If the goal is to truly make the discussion boards a learning environment, then the policy should be: If you want to write English, you must translate and write in Chinese.  Only those asking questions or seeking clarification on the lesson topics are allowed to use English. All other chit-chat should be written in Hanzi.

It a second time now that in the start of a new year, there arises again this emphasis to require pinyin to accompany Hanzi. Last year it was in Novice and Ele boards. Now it is spreading to the Intermediate boards. I'm getting tired of this notion that only Cpod knows how individuals learn and therefore knows when to delete the non-learning Hanzi.  

p.s. If you really want to learn Chinese correctly, you should not be asking for Pinyin and English translations of Chinese sentences written on the discussion boards.  The Pinyin written by counsellors or poddies do not provide you with the break-down of meaning and pinyin of each word or phrase in the sentences. Only online dictionaries such as MDGB does. 

Hey Pauley

Fair enough.  I'm just wondering, do you use a pop-up dictionary?  I know sometimes they are imperfect, but they are usually right, and by using them you get a translation and a definition all in one.  I personally think it is more convenient than trying to read a string of pinyin.  Is it that you are unaware of this kind of tool, do not like using them or can't use them for whatever reason?

ijust think that the chinesepod teachers post should include pinyin..as otherwise it detracts from being valuable learning tools...as far as other users are concerned it is no problem to me and i like trying to read their posts and have improved my chinese reading from not being able to see the pinyin with the hanzi...so i agree with xiaophil and also with john...i think as a learner we can use both methods of improving our chinese ..but when a teacher empoyed by chinesepod answers a post from a student i would like to see that in pinyin as well..as this increases immensely my ability to understand clearly what is being taught....

...

changye,

That's very true. In many cases, people won't read it, so we're just going to have to point it out to new users occasionally. If existing users understand and are on board, it won't be too much work to do in order to keep the discussion content helpful.

Hi john

Whatever the policy is, it's no use if people don't know it. To me, Chinesepod commening policy is just like insurance clauses written on the back of an insurance policy, hehe. How many of newcomers, native guys included, notice the "pinyin/translation, please" policy?

Ohhh.....I see。 我没张眼睛 wǒméizhǎngyǎnjīng

Thanks again a1pi2 / 谢谢小飞 xièxièxiǎofēi :-)

Both are very useful!

Thanks John for going out of your way to clear things up. 

I smell a debate coming here (although who knows due to the holiday), so let me just paste my basic argument against encouraging pinyin and translations in the intermediate and above lessons. 

This is most of what I originally posted here.  If you want the full background, you might want to go back.  Anyway...

First

I see translation at the intermediate level and above as an unwanted distraction, and thus doesn't promote a good Chinese learning environment.  What I mean is, it is a natural reaction for humans to zero in on the language that we are most familiar with, so no matter how good we get at Chinese, must of us will read English first, and only then if we have patience will we read the Chinese. 

Second

CPod staff has been very good at chatting with us lately in Chinese.  (Thank you CPod!) If CPod management suddenly tells them to use pinyin and translate, I'm afraid they will simply post less. 

I think people might say, "Well, if people want to learn Chinese, they should force themselves to read the Chinese, and as for staff, it's their job, so they should just grin and bear it," but I think human nature gravitates towards the path of least resistance.

I want to add, a while back I had an argument similar to this with another user who disagreed with me.  This particular user seemed to think I was an elitist.  I don't think I'm an elitist.  I just think my views are the proven way to learn.  But if others disagree, I'm all for them trying to change my mind ;).  Besides, if there is a civil discussion, perhaps a better CPod policy will come out of it.  (Although I like the current policy, haha.)

waiguoren

Perhaps this will be useful.

@waiguoren:

Option 1: Go to Resources then Add-ons, add the Pinyin Tone converter. It converts ni3hao3 to ni3hao3 so you still have to type the pinyin.

Option 2: Find one of the hundreds of freely available Hanzi->Pinyin converters on the web. This enables you to just type the Hanzi and have a computer convert it for you. Google wrote one but John pointed out how much it sucks. I wrote one, it doesn't suck. But I really didn't work that hard on it so I am sure there are better ones out there.

Um, sorry, probably going over old ground here, but where can I get that cool pin1yin1 tone converter thing...

Thanks in advance.

P.S. I find pinyin really useful in learning the characters, as a 'stepping stone' to full character recognition, so I agree with John's sediments.

One other thing...  xiaophil said:

Just to be clear, I didn't originally understand why John made his request.  I fully support him deleting the comments of native speakers if they pass the threshold of being useful to learners.  

The highlighted portion is exactly the point.  Unwanted comments would not so much fall under "not so useful" as "confusing and counter-productive."