Five little grammar words: 由，与， 而，为，则
simonpettersson
January 16, 2010, 10:16 AM posted in I Have a QuestionThese five little words: 由，与， 而，为，则. I'm having some trouble understanding how to use them. Is there a QW on any of them? Does anyone have some tips or explanations?
To be clear: I'm only talking about when they're used as words on their own, not when they're used as parts of compounds.
simonpettersson
Good and straight-forward. Thanks. One down.
xiaophil
January 20, 2010, 12:47 AM
Simon, I wish I shared your belief that 则 is not so hard. I occasionally come across it, and never get that ‘I definitely know this' warm, fuzzy feeling. That said, I think I have cracked the following case of her.
conjunction [却] but, however
1. 他很虚荣，她则不然。 He's very vain, but she's not.
2. 南方湿润，北方则干燥。The south is humid, but the north is dry.
3. 老婆说他是模范丈夫，朋友们则说他像个"男仆"。 His wife praises him as a model husband, but friends say that he is a male servant.
4. 欲速则不达(Chinese idiom).Haste makes waste. （lit. to want sth in haste, but cannot get there）
5. 有些错误可以弥补，而有些则无法挽回。Some mistakes can mend, while others simply cannot.
6. 他来自中国北方，而她则来自南方。He is from north China, while she is from south.
I think that numbers five and six are particularly useful for two reasons.
One, they uses 而, which is a specific concern of you.
Two, they demonstrate, as you noted, a useful sentence pattern, i.e. __A__, while __B__. (I gander it is a bit too formal for most spoken situations, though.)
bodawei
January 17, 2010, 06:13 AMNo one wants to tackle 由 - probably good reason. When used on its own it is what I think we call a preposition indicating 'by' or 'from'. In everyday use you see it on signs such as:
由此入内 -> (indicating that you should go in the direction indicated to get inside). The 由 I think indicates 'by' as in 'you get inside by or via the route indicated'.
由此下楼 -> (indicating that you should go in the direction indicated to get downstairs)
I'll try to find a photo illustrating the point.
simonpettersson
That makes sense. Here's an example of where I've encountered it: 他的姓氏由他丈夫的姓决定: Her surname is determined by her husband's. It makes sense with your explanation of "from".
So I have no big problem with understanding it, but using it myself still seems far off. When to use 由 and when to use 从?
changye
"由此入内" simply means "Please enter here", and "由此下楼" means "Please go downstairs here." Probably I'm merely paraphrasing your long translations, hehe.
xiaophil
As for 他的姓氏由他丈夫的姓决定, I think it is better to think of 由 as 'by' and not 'from'. Generally speaking, 'from'(从） would indicate the origin of an action; 'by'（由） would indicate the person/thing that caused the action (although, in different situations 由 can mean 从, such as bodawei's two examples above, but I'm not talking about that now). I think a better question would be when to use 由 and when to use 被. I don't know if you are following what I'm trying to get across here, but if not, don't fear. I will elaborate... but tomorrow, unfortunately.
simonpettersson
January 17, 2010, 08:23 AMThanks for those examples. I have no problem with 为了. That's simple enough. In the other examples, it seems that 为 acts as a sort of universal preposition. It's placed before a noun in all cases, it seems. That's got to be a clue. I feel I'm closer to getting it thanks to your examples. Here's another example I've encountered: 我们称她为张太太: "We address her as Mrs. Zhang".
Your example number three confuses me. Are you sure this shouldn't be 这不是唯一个办法? I'll skip it in drawing my conclusions here. I'll also skip number one, because I think 为了 is actually used differently. So, in the other ones:
In number two, we have a change. The 为 tells us what is being changed INTO, not what is changing. In number four someone is bestowed. The 为 tells us what is BEING bestowed, not who is recieving or giving it. In number five, someone is pondering. The 为 tells us what he ponders OVER, not who is pondering. In number six the 为 tells us what it's powered BY. In number seven it tells us what the forest is being destroyed BY. In my own example it marks what to call her BY.
So here's my conclusion: The 为 marks the indirect object of the sentence. If A does something to B, no 为 is needed. If A does something to B with/by/using/though C, then we use a 为 to mark C.
And here's an attempt at making a couple of sentences of my own. If someone with advanced Chinese could correct or confirm them, it'd be swell:
我抓了他为手: I grabbed him with my hand. This is interesting, because I'm assuming the 为 points out HOW I'm grabbing her, not WHERE. It could mean I grabbed her BY the hand, or maybe it's ambiguous.
她成了我为好人: She changed me into a good person. I've got a feeling that 成为, "to change into", is really two separate words and that the 为 is used like a standalone word. If this is true, I should be able to split them apart, like this.
他来这里为飞机: He's coming here by airplane. The 为 would be telling us the means he uses to come here.
simonpettersson
January 17, 2010, 08:31 AMThat makes sense. Here's an example of where I've encountered it: 他的姓氏由他丈夫的姓决定: Her surname is determined by her husband's. It makes sense with your explanation of "from".
So I have no big problem with understanding it, but using it myself still seems far off. When to use 由 and when to use 从?
simonpettersson
January 17, 2010, 08:32 AMGood and straight-forward. Thanks. One down.
xiaophil
January 16, 2010, 11:49 PMI suggest starting the hard work with 为. 为 is particularly tricky because sometimes it is 2nd tone; sometimes it is 4th tone. It's meaning is often murky too. Below I pasted some 为 sentences. Perhaps we can draw out its different meanings, or better yet, make some sentence patterns.
- 我参军是为了报效祖国。 I enlisted in order to serve my country. (okay, this one is actually 为了, but I feel no list would be complete without it.)
- 化悲痛为力量 turn grief into strength (set phrase?)
- 这不失为一个办法。 This, after all, is one way of doing it.
- 皇帝册封她为贵妃。 The emperor bestowed on her the title of imperial concubine of the highest rank.
- 他为这个问题沉思了好久。 He pondered over this problem for a long time.
- 以风力为动力 wind-powered; wind-driven (I take particular interest in this because 以 causes me just as much problems as 为.)
- 森林为大火所毁。 The forest was destroyed by fire.
I feel there could be many more examples, but I'm afraid I have already gone overboard.
simonpettersson
Thanks for those examples. I have no problem with 为了. That's simple enough. In the other examples, it seems that 为 acts as a sort of universal preposition. It's placed before a noun in all cases, it seems. That's got to be a clue. I feel I'm closer to getting it thanks to your examples. Here's another example I've encountered: 我们称她为张太太: "We address her as Mrs. Zhang".
Your example number three confuses me. Are you sure this shouldn't be 这不是唯一个办法? I'll skip it in drawing my conclusions here. I'll also skip number one, because I think 为了 is actually used differently. So, in the other ones:
In number two, we have a change. The 为 tells us what is being changed INTO, not what is changing. In number four someone is bestowed. The 为 tells us what is BEING bestowed, not who is recieving or giving it. In number five, someone is pondering. The 为 tells us what he ponders OVER, not who is pondering. In number six the 为 tells us what it's powered BY. In number seven it tells us what the forest is being destroyed BY. In my own example it marks what to call her BY.
So here's my conclusion: The 为 marks the indirect object of the sentence. If A does something to B, no 为 is needed. If A does something to B with/by/using/though C, then we use a 为 to mark C.
And here's an attempt at making a couple of sentences of my own. If someone with advanced Chinese could correct or confirm them, it'd be swell:
我抓了他为手: I grabbed him with my hand. This is interesting, because I'm assuming the 为 points out HOW I'm grabbing her, not WHERE. It could mean I grabbed her BY the hand, or maybe it's ambiguous.
她成了我为好人: She changed me into a good person. I've got a feeling that 成为, "to change into", is really two separate words and that the 为 is used like a standalone word. If this is true, I should be able to split them apart, like this.
他来这里为飞机: He's coming here by airplane. The 为 would be telling us the means he uses to come here.
xiaophil
Simon, some of what you said confused me. Not because you said anything wrong, but because I don't have enough time to think about it as carefully as required. I will check back later and give it the look over it deserves. That said, I do have time to present my explanation of the above sentences.
1) As you said you understand, no explanation needed here.
2) 化悲痛为力量 Here we have a sentence pattern: 化A为(wei2)B. In English we would say: "Turn A into B." So in this case 为 means 'into' (and 化 means 'turn', obviously).
3) 这不失为一个办法。This time 不失为(bu4shi1wei2) can perhaps be treated as one word. It means 'Can still be considered to be...' The key point to this discussion is 为 really means 是 (to be) in this context. 不失 is more for emphasis.
4) 皇帝册封她为贵妃。 Here, 为(wei2) means 'as'.
5) 他为这个问题沉思了好久。 Here, 为(wei4 **notice tone change**) means 'about'.
6) 以风力为动力 Here we have another sentence pattern: 以A为(wei2)B. In English: "Use A as B."
7) 森林为大火所毁。 This is another sentence pattern, a passive sentence structure to be exact. If we changed the 为(wei2) to 被 and omitted the 所, we would have the most basic kind of passive voice sentence in Chinese, e.g. 我的自行车为小偷所偷了! = 我的自行车被小偷偷了!(My bike was stolen!)
I hope this helps (I know it helped me; thanks!). As I said, I'll take a closer look at your thoughts later. Let me know if you have any other thoughts.
simonpettersson
Yes, it certainly helps, by showing me I was totally and utterly wrong. Especially the tone change in number five makes me despair. I'm back to "I don't know how this works at all".
Regarding number two, my dictionary gives me "不失为" as a word/phrase, meaning, like you said, "Can still be considered to be". So that can be considered a fixed expression.
Still, as to the other ones, I'm completely stumped now. I need a Qing Wen on this, pronto.
simonpettersson
Wait, new thought on number five (他为这个问题沉思了好久): According to the built-in dictionary in OSX, 为 with the fourth tone means "because of; for; to". So while your translation "He pondered over this problem for a long time" is the colloquial one, a more literal translation might be "Because of this problem, he pondered for a long time".
xiaophil
Yes, you could think of it that way. You might think of it as a shortened 因为.
xiaophil
Simon, or anyone actually, if you are willing, I found a fun little sentence full of 为's that would be interesting to translate:
技术上的突破，如互联网等技术，为富国同时也为穷国开辟了一条以知识为基础的快速发展之路。
changye
January 17, 2010, 10:45 AM"由此入内" simply means "Please enter here", and "由此下楼" means "Please go downstairs here." Probably I'm merely paraphrasing your long translations, hehe.
xiaophil
January 18, 2010, 12:06 AM
Simon, here's some more for ya:
由usage: preposition ‘by'
1. 这件事由你去安排吧！This business will be dealt with by you.
2. 这个计划由他创议，也应该由他负责。 This plan was initiated by him, so he should be in charge.
3. 常委由代表大会选举或者罢免。 Members of the standing committee are elected and subject to recall by the congress.
4. 这个话剧是由两位青年作家编导的。 The play was written and directed by two young writers.
5. 协议书已由双方代表草签。 The agreement has been initialed by representatives from both sides.
6. 宾馆由建筑公司承建。 The guesthouse has been contracted by a construction company.
7. 他的姓氏由他丈夫的姓决定。Her surname is determined by her husband's.
As we can see, the above examples use 由 to form passive voice sentences. Let's contrast it with our buddy, 被.
1. 他被树根绊了一下。 He stumbled over the root of a tree.
2. 他被打个半死 。He was beaten within an inch of his life.
3. 他被对手击倒。 He was knocked down by his opponent.
4. 她被选为主席。 She was elected chairwoman.
What's the difference? Okay, first of all, I may lack the most precise grammar terminology, but I think I can make this clear. Forward on!
When using 由, the object is always, at least as far as I have seen, something other than human, and most often is something like a plan, contract, document, etc. There is also always a subject, e.g. in example one the subject is ‘you'. I have noticed that these sort of sentences often have an ‘official document' feel to them.
When using 被, the object can be human and usually is (as far as I have seen). The subject of the sentence, however, is optional. I have noticed that, while not always true, most of the time this kind of sentence is used to spell out accidents and misfortune in general.
Hope I didn't confuse you.
xiaophil
By the way, in number 4, 编导 shouldn't be highlighted. I'm sure you could have figured that out.
xiaophil
January 18, 2010, 12:08 AMBy the way, in number 4, 编导 shouldn't be highlighted. I'm sure you could have figured that out.
xiaophil
January 18, 2010, 03:08 AMSimon, or anyone actually, if you are willing, I found a fun little sentence full of 为's that would be interesting to translate:
技术上的突破，如互联网等技术，为富国同时也为穷国开辟了一条以知识为基础的快速发展之路。
simonpettersson
January 17, 2010, 08:36 AMRegarding 则, I feel like it's not that difficult, but I could really use some more examples. The one I've got in my mind is 有的擅长拳法，有的则擅长腿功: some are skilled at boxing, while others are skilled at kicking. 则 supposedly "expresses contrast with the previous sentiment". I'm guessing it acts just like the English "while" in the above translation. But a few more examples to really get the usage would be great.
xiaophil
January 16, 2010, 02:52 PMGood topic Simon. Some of these bother me as well. Unfortunately, my wife is calling, so I will only scratch the surface of what I want to write. That said, I will try to get this thread going by knocking out what I feel is the easiest.
与 means 'and' just like 和. The only difference is that 与 is primarily used in written Chinese. You will sound a little funny if you try to use 与 in your spoken Chinese.