China's Lost Girls

champion effort xiao liang...I was googling as well but though there were several articles about that article,they all referred to the guardian article to get the full story.Thanks for that.

Hi bodawei

呵呵，你看起来很羡慕我，对不对？我这个人绝不错过机会和一个妙龄女生“亲密交流”，抓紧机会就是我的座右铭。你好好向我学习吧！

Yeah, i knew someone would bring that up. Don't you know that I like to bait Changye? ;-) Did he bite? (I haven't read all the posts.)

晚安！

我晕！

Sibuliao 同学，你好！

我很高兴听到你说你长见识，其实我也和你一样。多亏了你提出的疑问，我才去网上查询有关信息，感觉这次学到了不少东西。关于你问的私人（？）问题，我的答案很简单又很合理。和一个22岁的中国姑娘热烈讨论让我无比喜悦，这就是一个难得的机会呀！晚安。

你好！

我看了你提供的网站，我觉得已经无意义争论这个话题了，不管Xinran的报道是不是100%正确的。因为我又shocking了一次，在封建时代“杀女婴”居然成了一种习俗！我不能接受，太残忍了，这个母亲要受到多少良心的责备!

我的误解来源于Xinran的报道中大篇幅出现了one-child policy，而我个人觉得“杀女婴”和one-child policy没有太大的关系！

谢谢这次精彩的辩论让我学到了很多！

我能问一个私人问题吗？

其实一开始你说“无知有时候是一件好事”显然你那时不太想和我辩论这个报道，后来是什么促使你要和我辩论到底的呢？

haha, Changye's a Westerner Bodawei? Says in his profile he's a middle-aged Japanese "boy".

@sibuliao

The main reasons this discussion took up hours and hours and resolved very little is that (a) Chinese and Westerners hold different values, and (b) we organise information differently. You cannot (nor should not necessarily) change your values, but if you want to argue successfully you need to learn how we organise our information.

For example, you rely on emotion and Westerners are not greatly impressed by this. In fact (for us) it often undermines the case. Interestingly, this very story provides an exception - Xinran herself relies on emotion. But she has Chinese heritage AND she is a journalist.

Just trying to be helpful.

I like your style and appreiate you !

Maybe you are right !I should give you more objective evidence.

但我觉得“机智的回答”才是辩论最美妙和惊叹的地方！

I am very young，初出牛犊不怕虎！没你谨慎啊！

Hi sibuliao

Come on! You ARE tough, just like your name "sibuliao" (死不了, die hard), hehe. If I were you, I wouldn't have the heart to keep posting without answering a question raised by a debate opponent, or without showing objective/concrete evidence for justifying my opinion. You are a really tough girl, sibuliao 同学.

I don't know him. To me , it's funny! I have to admit he is very tough!

and I like his dog very much, very pretty! That's why I keep on , at least for he has such lovely dog !

Hi zhenlijiang

Your concern is much appreciated, thanks! Fortunately or unfortunately, I'm off today, hehe.

Changye, I do hope all the time you've spent here today has not been wasted.

thanks mate.I thought it pertinent to the one child policy discussion but maybe it is a bit boring for others.Don't go to too much trouble unless you wanna know yourself. :)

hehe,fair enough.Sorry to trouble you. :)

@Barbs

Recently met a woman who works as a researcher in 'Family Planning/sexual health/AIDS, HIV' in a medical school - when the opportunity arises I will ask your question, okay?

Sorry I have no interest in your question.And I don't know the answer to your question. Maybe you can ask the question to the experts. I am merely interested in that whether the report is 100% true!

I'm trying to ask to what extent,if any,there is an IVF programme in China.Ok,sure they are trying to limit population growth,but what about infertile couples? I'm asking about the Chinese position on assisted fertility.Furthermore,historically in the west in the past there was a tendency to transfer multiple embryo's to maximise the chance of a successful outcome,but the down side of this was in many cases a multiple pregnancy and it's inherant risks.In more recent times technology has helped select more viable embryo's and has brought this transfer number down.If I understand your point earlier,you seemed to be stating that the one child policy meant that each family was only allowed one successful pregnancy but of course there are times when a multiple pregnancy is naturally conceived.This led to my question about what the policy dictated in the case of IVF...are they allowed to transfer more than one embryo in order to increase the chances of success? I only ask as I would find that interesting and you seem to claim some knowledge of this policy and thus I thought you might know.

hi ！

谢谢你翻译成英文了！

你的意思，是不排除双胞胎和三胞胎的可能？

sibuliao,Thanks for your reply but I'm a little unclear whether I wrote my question clearly enough as your reply does not seem to answer it,so as your English is better than my Chinese,I thought I'd switch to English to clarify.What I was trying to say above was:

...first of all quoting what you had written which I took to mean:

"obviously "one family one child" merely indicates "to make [ie conceive]" one child"

to which I then responded by trying to say:

..very interesting. Your post made me think of a question.Sorry to trouble you,but can you tell me regarding the extent of China's In Vitro Fertilisation programme? I guess doctors are only allowed to transfer one embryo and not allowed to transfer two in order to increase the chance of success,right?

Your response to me seems to be:

Oh please!! [?exasperation ??}.That time China how to have test tube baby ,ah !!

Ok,so as opposed to the rest of this conversation I suppose my question was more pertaining to the current situation [but the background history would also be very interesting].But I take it from your reply you are suggesting that at least in the past IVF was not available in China?

拜托！那个时候中国哪有试管婴儿啊！

"显然“一个家庭一个孩子”指的是只“造”一个孩子"。。。很有意思。你的帖子让我有一个问题。麻烦你，可以告诉我关于程度的中国的试管婴儿？我猜医生只允许传一个胚胎，而不可能两个以提高成功的可能性，对不对？

HI sibuliao

Just for your information,

> 这个故事里有一句话：the old village custom of killing girl babies was extremely common in provinces, 我希望xinran记者能提供具体的照片，书面文字说明！

I agree with you. I also want to see concrete evidence for this, although I guess that it’s actually not so easy to get statistics for this kind of thing.

As far as I can see on the Internet (China), it may be said that killing a girl baby was common in some regions in China before the establishment of the PRC. The old custom seems to have a very long history.

《近代华北地区的溺女(drowning a girl baby)习俗》

http://wen.org.cn/modules/article/view.article.php/1456

Here is a piece of news article in 2009, 《严防“两非”和弃溺女婴等违法犯罪行为》 Looks like some local authorities are still trying to prevent “killing a girl baby” in modern China, which is an official agenda in a conference at a municipal government.

http://www.gzlps.gov.cn/art/2009/4/2/art_4509_108904.html

Below is the link to the article 《李银河采访百名妇女后撰写农村性别权力现状》, which introduces the book 《后村的女人们》.

http://bj.yzdsb.com.cn/system/2009/11/29/010253727.shtml

The book describes some 男尊女卑 customs/practices in villages in modern China. The research was done in 2006 and 2007. The article says “新闻告诉我们，溺女婴 (drowning a girl baby )、拐卖妇女、卖老婆及较高的女性自杀率仍在继续，特别是在农村地区”.

Of course, these articles don’t give us quantitative information.

HI sibuliao

> 你也不能提供相应的证据反驳我

You are still missing the point, or just evading the point. I’m in a neutral position. I’m not denying your claim, and as I said before, I’m also not 100% sure that what the author said in the article is all true, because I don’t have evidence either. On the other hand, you clearly said “it is not true”, so it’s YOU who need to show us the evidence to justify your claim. OK?

> 我佩服你的态度“知之为知之,不知为不知，是知也”，我想问的是你是否能保证每一个中国人，或者每一个日本人都具备这种素质？

Looks like my joke didn’t work well. I said “I admire an attitude of 知之为知之,不知为不知” (as a joke) because I still believe some Chinese would just say “I don’t know about that”. It’s not a matter of “素质”.

> 所以我对这个故事是“怀疑”“不相信”的态度，并不否认它的真实性，我否认的是那句话。

Yeah, you are very right, and therefore we are now trying to figure out whether your claim”我否认那句话” is correct or not.

> 这篇报道用的照片是那个孤儿吗？为什么只有背影？

The caption says “Photograph: Natalie Fobes/Getty Images”, so it’s not a photo of Little Snow. In any case, the photo has nothing to do with our discussion.

> 我出生日期是1988年，刚好比那个ranran大一岁，据我所知，我的同龄人也有家里是两个子女的，自己生了一个女孩子，收养的是个男孩子，我请问不是有可以收养另外一个孩子的例子吗？怎么这位记者就不能收养了呢？何况是个孤儿！

Your claim lacks the most important information. Would you please tell me when the boy was adopted? Is that before April 1992, or after April 1992 ?

> 这个故事把矛头指向“计划生育

I think the one-child policy has been necessary for the PRC, but this doesn’t automatically mean you should turn a blind eye to the negative side of the policy. Otherwise, you can’t improve the one-child policy. Don’t you think so?

> 为什么说“中国没有人权”总是外国媒体篇幅多呢？

I think this is because people have more “free speech rights” in countries like USA and Japan than in the PRC. As you know, free speech rights are very limited in your country.

> 这么多的疑点，让我不得不怀疑这篇报道的真实性，尽管我没有很明确的证据说明！

The problem is that your 疑点 are based on your speculation and hunches, but not based on concrete evidence, as you said. That said, of course, you have every single right to doubt the article, even if you can’t persuade me.

Lastly, let me recommend you not frequently use an exclamation mark “!”. I’m afraid someone might think you’re getting emotional. Just a thought.

1 我仍然怀疑“xinran”这个故事，因为我已经说了我否认这句话：you already have a child, you wouldn't be allowed to adopt another under the one-child policy，所以我怀疑这个故事的真实性！即使2001年之前没有明确的法律规定，但是政策口述是“只准生一个孩子”，和“只准养育一个孩子”有着天壤之别，我承认不能提供相应的证据反驳你，但你也不能提供相应的证据反驳我，所以我们只好大部分建立在“说服力”的基础上，但至少这个故事不是100%准确的，是有疑点的！

2 我想解释“every chinese will think you are ridiculous”，我佩服你的态度“知之为知之,不知为不知，是知也”，我想问的是你是否能保证每一个中国人，或者每一个日本人都具备这种素质？！我说了，大多数中国人敬爱中国共产党，当然不会认为政府没有人性到不可以养育一个孤儿，而且关键是不违背“计划生育”的目的！但是不可否认，领养孤儿并不是那么简单的，所以我对这个故事是“怀疑”“不相信”的态度，并不否认它的真实性，我否认的是那句话。

3 这个故事把矛头指向“计划生育”，谕旨中国没有人权，乱杀女婴，我想提出，为什么说“中国没有人权”总是外国媒体篇幅多呢？难道是外国媒体提醒中国人民了，“嘿！中国人注意了，其实中国没有人权的”

4 这个故事里有一句话：the old village custom of killing girl babies was extremely common in provinces such as Henan, Shandong, Shanxi and Northern Jiangsu’在2005年第五次人口中国人口13亿，农村人口9亿，即使在1990左右，中国人口11亿，农村人口也占了60%多，中国人口聚集在内陆，东边，以及沿海地区，我想问根据这句话，中国不但是“造人大国”，也是“杀女婴”大国，有多少女婴要被杀，说这么一句话是极其不负责任的！我希望xinran记者能提供具体的照片，书面文字说明！让人信服！

5 这篇报道用的照片是那个孤儿吗？为什么只有背影？

6 我出生日期是1988年，刚好比那个ranran大一岁，据我所知，我的同龄人也有家里是两个子女的，自己生了一个女孩子，收养的是个男孩子，我请问不是有可以收养另外一个孩子的例子吗？怎么这位记者就不能收养了呢？何况是个孤儿！

7 这么多的疑点，让我不得不怀疑这篇报道的真实性，尽管我没有很明确的证据说明！

人品呐！

姐姐我放寒假在家学英语呢！

RP大爆发，一个上午怎么也打不开这网站，本来还想作最后陈述性语言，不料，吃中饭时间到了！

帅哥 你好像每天都到了的哦

晚安，明天再回答，再作总结性陈述！

Hi sibuliao

哎呀，时间已经不早了。那你好好休息吧，晚安！

Hi sibuliao

Your claim is based on your speculation, so let me also tell you my "hypothesis" based on my speculation/hunches.

I guess that prior to the advent of adoption law in the PRC, Chinese citizens who had a child (or children) were not allowed to adopt a child, regardless of whether he/she is an orphan or not, which I also think is not reasonable. And this is the reason the author couldn't adopt the girl in 1991.

Having said that, it's also possible that the administration/interpretation of one-child policy and its regulations slightly varied from region to region in the PRC, as is often the case in China, such a large country.

And therefore, the government had to make the adoption law in order to make rules clear and solve some lingering problems, and consequently the rule for adopting orphans was changed under the law that was enforced in 1992.

In the article, you can find the following discription.

> I went to see someone higher up in the hospital, an old friend. He made a wise suggestion: I should take her home now, while Little Snow was still down in the hospital records as their patient. In a couple of months it would be Chinese New Year, and policy might change or be relaxed.

I think this senario is possible, but of course I don't know whether it's correct or not. I also don't have any evidence, except for the Xinran's story.

中国人的思想里把中国共产党当作为人民服务的，我知道西方国家思想很开放，可以反对国家领导人，但是在大多数中国人思想里，还是热爱中国共产党的，潜意识里当然知道中国实施计划生育的目的是为了减少人口负担。所以领养孤儿并不与这项政策违背，为什么不可以呢？理所当然我坚信，中国人会认为领养孤儿是可以的！

Hi changye:

你是要继续辩论吗？现在我不太想辩论，我现在只想尽可能解释清楚，让你更了解计划生育法！

事实是：在那个时候，很少中国家庭需要思考那种问题，因为那时候中国很艰苦，很少家庭会去再领养一个孩子，时间大概是2001年之前，（2001年是一个重要的转折点，因为刚好2001年才实施了计划生育法），也不排除特例有家庭真的想要领养，中国人法律意识单薄，但我觉得常识性地都会认为领养孤儿是没有问题的，因为与计划生育的目的不违背。

“与计划生育的目的不违背”这是一个很重要的判断标准，但是具体能不能领养成，还得走法律程序！我们不能评判，如果我们真的想弄清楚，我觉得需要请具体相关的律师，但上网查是不够的！

I have given my reason. you don't regard it as a reason.

但我强调的是，我不是出于爱国，你那样评价我，我觉得我受伤了，觉得受到侮辱了人格！

你并不有深交我，你不了解我！我绝不是那种因为是中国人，就帮中国说话，我觉得我和他们是平等的，我也很欣赏那位日本朋友！

听到你原先的评价，我觉得伤了自尊！

我只是在说我看完那篇报道后的真实感受，我确实质疑了！

Hi sibuliao

I think your "answer" has nothing to do with the question "are you really sure .......?", or is just contradicting, at least. You said before "every chinese will agree with me/the most chinese people will feel that this sentence is ridiculous", but you are now saying "most chinese don't need know whether it is ok to adopt another even they have a child already". Furthermore, what do you mean by saying "at that time"? When is that? Are you talking about today's China, or China in the past? Your argument seems to have been getting inconsistent.

Yes, I did. Please see my previous post.

On re-reading it however, it may be talking about the law enacted in 1992 and not answer the question of the law before that time anyway.

I think the main point of this endless conversation, if there is one, is that "everyone knows" and "it is ridiculous" are never satisfactory answers. No one here has said that you are wrong. Just that you have given us no reason for your beliefs.

hi！

oh，really?

I mean you said" the report I found states that prior to the 1992 law, no, Chinese citizens who already had a child were not allowed to adopt. "

你可以具体指出在哪说明这句话吗？

thank you !

Ah, I see. A child who's parents have both died? Not a child abandoned by it's parents, or a stepchild. I guess it hadn't occurred to me to differentiate. I suppose I thought of an orphan as any child who is without parental support, regardless of the reason.

however as what I say, Xinran is a very special example, who want to adopt another .If it is ture, I Think she is a great mother !

所以你的问题，我不太好回答！领养一个孤儿并不常见，在当时中国很穷的状况下，谁会想去领养一个不是自己亲生的孩子呢？！

At that time,China is still poor !Most family can not make sure that they can raise their family members or not !They don't want to adopt another to increase the burden. I think most family are tend to be selfish .So that most chinese don't need know whether it is ok to adopt another even they have a child already.Unless some family have not the ability to give birth to children,but obviously which is out of the topic !

HI orangina

How about in the case of adopting an orphan?

Right, sorry, did I misunderstand? The report I found states that prior to the 1992 law, no, Chinese citizens who already had a child were not allowed to adopt.

Hi sibuliao

Please read my comments more carefully. My question is this,

> Are you really sure that every Chinese guy, who knows more or less about the one-child policy, automatically think that the statement "you already have a child, you wouldn't be allowed to adopt another under the one-child policy" (even in case it's an orphan) was clearly wrong before the enforcement of the adoption law? I just can't believe that.

Hi orangina

Thanks a lot for your comment, but I'm afraid that is not the answer. The point in this discussion is whether or not Chinese citizens who had a child (or children) were allowed to adopt an orphan before the enforcement of the PRC adoption law in 1992. This is allowed under the adoption law.

我这么跟你讲吧，那时候杀女婴的少，逃脱计划生育的倒不少，所以农村里的人生了很多女孩子现象很多，谁会忍心杀自己的孩子啊？

中国男女比例失调，部分是由于计划生育造成的，但是堕胎的多，杀女婴得少，我听说过，也是从报纸上不知道什么“野史”看来的！我相信有杀女婴的事，但不可能是大面积的！还是属少数！

That's okay changye, I will answer your question.

According to a report from (this is a link) Harvard International Law Journal:

"China’s 1991 adoption policies restricted domestic adoptions to childless Chinese citizens over age 35."

I'm afraid you didn't answer my question again.

wow！you got what my name mean !

说明你的中文真的很好！

我真的不相信这句话，you already have a child, you wouldn't be allowed to adopt (收养) another under the one-child policy，我以一个朋友的身份跟你说我不相信这句话，真心的，不是以一个中国人身份，如果给我一定的时间，我肯定会找到证据反驳这句话的！

很高兴认识你！

幸会，幸会！

HI sibuliao

> every chinese will agree with me.

I don't think so. I guess some would say "I just don't know about that well", which I think is a very sincere answer. I love an attitude of "知之为知之，不知为不知，是知也".

Are you really sure that every Chinese guy, who knows more or less about the one-child policy, automatically think that the statement "you already have a child, you wouldn't be allowed to adopt another under the one-child policy" (even in case it's an orphan) was clearly wrong before the enforcement of the adoption law? I just can't believe that.

double post, deleted

Oh~ really?

I say that because Chinese government implement the one-child policy, and nobody is more clear about the one-child policy than chinese. If Janpen implement the one-child policy, I wounld not say that !

Not for the reason I am a chinese ,so I need more chinese stand at my side. And I don't represent for China, I represent for myself!

Hi sibuliao

> every chinese will agree with me.

Looks like you love this phrase, but I recommend you not say a thing like this when debating/discussing, because it can't effectively strengthen your argument.

The time has come for me to have a meal. See you later!

For the reason that you are maybe more than 20 years older than me ，you think my argument is childish? No kidding ! I am 22 years old, already ! I am not a child anymore！Plus I have no offence ,just kidding !

I think my argument is 有根有据的 ,every chinese will agree with me. If you said you already have a child , you could not adopt another under the one-child policy in china, even before 2001, I promise you, every chinese will think you are ridiculous!

Hi sibuliao

I don't have much interest in your speculation, but have interest in historical facts/local practice regarding adoption in the PRC before 1992. Your argument is not persuasive, on the contrary, just childish. Please be noted I'm not saying you are wrong, but I only want to see concrete/objective evidence (but not circumstantial evidence/speculation) that can justify your opinion.

另外，你说的那个问题，我们事先已经讨论过了，我觉得人思考问题时不能太死板，难道非要有白纸黑字的书面才能证明吗？亲爱的日本朋友，难道考古专家非要坐时间机器，回到侏罗纪时代看到恐龙了，才能证明恐龙的存在吗？实际上2001年的《中国计划生育法》和1992年的《收养法》都更加倾向于我的论述是合理的，更加倾向于证明z这句话“you already have a child, you wouldn't be allowed to adopt (收养) another under the one-child policy”是没有根据的！

Hi sibuliao

You are just dodging/evading the point. I didn't say the author's claim is correct. Please read my previous comment again.

> Honestly, I'm not 100% sure if what the author wrote is all correct, since I also don't have evidence to prove it, but you clearly denied the author's remark and said "it is not true". So I think you need to show us more concrete evidence. (posted by me)

我可以先这样反问你吗？为什么你认为这句话是正确的？“you already have a child, you wouldn't be allowed to adopt (收养) another under the one-child policy”政府阻拦她领养一个孤儿有什么好处？对中国减少人口，实行计划生育又有什么好处？你能回答我这个问题吗？

Hi sibuliao

Looks like you still don't get the point.

What I'd like you to show is objective evidence for your believing that the sentence "you already have a child, you wouldn't be allowed to adopt (收养) another under the one-child policy" is wrong.

In other words, I'd like to know how adoption was done in the PRC before the enforcement of 收养法 in 1992, which is very important for figuring out if your (or the author's) claim is correct.

难道中国政府头脑就那么死板啊？"一个家庭一个孩子"就是特指一个家庭只能有一个孩子啊?!双胞胎和三胞胎都不行啊？！显然“一个家庭一个孩子”指的是只“造”一个孩子，不是只能有一个孩子！

因为任何一个中国人都明白，实施计划生育的目的是减少人口，

这么跟你简单地解释吧：假设中国人口为定值，如果你多生了另外一个孩子，中国人口就增加了，政府就会根据计划生育政策阻拦你，但是你领养一个孩子，中国人口不变！

我没有说我完全否认她，我是提出的我的质疑！

take a look：

The journalist wrote: " Besides, you already have a child, you wouldn't be allowed to adopt another under the one-child policy." As far as I know ,it's not true! The one-child policy doesn't allow you give birth to two children or more physically except the twins which doesn't mean you can't raise two babys or more.

I mean the sentence "you already have a child, you wouldn't be allowed to adopt another under the one-child policy" is wrong!

I deny this sentence firstly, so I have to doubt the whole story !Because this sentence is very significant for me to believe the story or not !

Besides, you can ask the question to any other chinese,the most chinese people will feel that this sentence is ridiculous ！

Do you think people could freely adopt children in the PRC before the enforcement of the adoption law (1992)?

Chinese parents generally couldn't have the second baby even before 2001, when 《计划生育法》 went into effect. It may not have been "illegal" (?), but in fact it was virtually not allowed because of the national policy.

Honestly, I'm not 100% sure if what the author wrote is all correct, since I also don't have evidence to prove it, but you clearly denied the author's remark and said "it is not true". So I think you need to show us more concrete evidence.

但是，许多中国人心中确实存在重男轻女的观念，我个人也非常反对，也很憎恨这种观念，我不觉得成为一个女孩子有什么不好！

《中华人民共和国收养法》已由中华人民共和国第七届全国人民代表大会常务委员会第二十三次会议于1991年12月29日通过，现予公布，自1992年4月1日起施行。

收养法也是1991年才颁布的，我的问题是：那么1991年之前，收养法没有建立的时候，计划生育法没有实施的时候，薛欣然凭什么说自己违法了呢？

Hi sibuliao

Your argument is not persuasive. You are denying the author's remarks about things happened before 1991 just based on your hunches and limited knowledge on modern China. 《计划生育法》(2001) and 《收养法》(1992) are not helpful when you want to justify your remark "it's not true", because the author's story happened in 1990/1991.

> You can try to ask the same question to any other chinese.I think most of them will feel it's ridiculous.

I must agree this is a very "scientific and objective" way to verify your claim.

I don't know!I don't want to withdraw my statement!

How ridiculous that you can not raise the other baby under the "one-child" policy.You can try to ask the same question to any other chinese.I think most of them will feel it's ridiculous. It just doesn't make sense!

除此之外，中国计划生育法也是根据中国计划生育政策编写的，二者应该统一，没什么大的变动。即使是中国收养法也不会遭到大浮动的改动，在中国想要改变法律的一例条文是很难很难的！

however you are right, sometimes innocence is a good thing!

I got it !

Sooooooooo sorry!

You said right !

I hope China will change it !In fact ,I worry about China's education.A lot of problems there~

Hi sibuliao

So you have to withdraw your statement "As far as I know , it's not true", but don't mind. As I said before, there is a lot of things we don't know in this world.

> 我确实不能找到明确的信息！

sibuliao

"I have no offence !So sorry!"A lack of education and a lot desperation will make people do desperate things to survive. It's a sad fact. "what do you mean?你是指中国吗？"

I was stating that in places where people are struggling to survive and do not have access to an education to help them make good decisions (in all poor places/countries, not only China during less wealthy time)people are forced to do things that others who have a comfortable life cannot comprehend.

I also "implied" that it might not be right to judge people based on how we view morals in our own country as we do not know what its like to be in those terrible situations ourselves.

Does that make more sense?

抱歉！我确实不能找到明确的信息！

中国计划生育在2001年才形成法律条文，之前只是一向政策，并没有形成法律条文！但中国计划生育是为了减轻人口负担，而薛欣然领养这个孤儿，反而是减轻了中国政府的负担，中国政府反而阻拦她领养孤儿了，这点说不通啊！

这篇报道的矛头显然指向的是中国的计划生育，但我觉得中国计划生育总体是成功的，确实中国人口增长速率在减少，而且保证了绝大多数的孩子接受教育，告别文盲！所以我还是支持中国实施计划生育，而且不止中国实施这项政策，也有一些其他国家也实施了，比如印度多吧？

I have told you my questions,doults, and opinions.I am not afraid of exposing the dark sides of China.But it must base on the truth！部分真相也当于谎言。而且我已经说了我没有完全否认中国存在重男轻女的现象，和存在杀死女婴的可能，我已经尽量小心地用每一个词，但不可避免，我还是犯了些语言上的错误。你对我一系列评价大部分都是建立在你个人的情绪和猜想中，抱歉！我不是你评价的那种人！难道你真的相信中国农村存在大量的杀死女婴的事件吗？

Sorry!

I have no offence!

1，首先他犯了些英文单词拼法的错误是吗？影响我的理想，但我可能自己英语也有问题！抱歉！我是不太理解!"A lack of education and a lot desperation will make people do desperate things to survive'这句话！

2，在中文里“prejudice”是偏见的意思，在中文里可以这么讲，我觉得你对什么什么有偏见，没问题的！我不知道美国和英国，而且我加了“I think"我没有肯定说，“你就是有偏见”，在中文里，如果你用“歧视”这个词，这是不太妥当的，如果我说“我觉得你对中国有歧视”这句话就不太合适。

3，我没有误解他的意思，我知道他大部分同意我的观点。

4，我觉得argument是一件好事，可以把问题弄清楚，并且增进彼此的认识，提高你们的中文，提高我的英文。

5，谢谢你对我的英文提出质疑和修正。

I have no offence !So sorry!"A lack of education and a lot desperation will make people do desperate things to survive. It's a sad fact. "what do you mean?你是指中国吗？

Hamshank, you're welcome. Actually, it's good practice for me. I'm sure some of what I said was a bit clunky, but I think it gets the point across.

Hi sibuliao

Very sorry, I overlooked the article 8. That's a good observation. But I'm afraid you've not yet answered my (important) question. Do you know the situation before the enforcement of the adoption law in the PRC?

Xiaophil - Many thanks for your explination to sibuliao. (and to google translate for helping me read it ;)) I don't think my Chinese ability was good enough to defend/explain my statement and it also looks like an English response may end up being misunderstood.

sibuliao

好像你的英文能力不错，你跟外国人能争论，可是我想告诉你一件事，下面的你对Hamshank写的小段你没写太合适。

I think you have a prejudice of China.You don't even figure out why Chinese government implement the one-child policy.

在英文里，你不可以随便说别人有prejudice，你仔细再看吧，Hamshank没批评中国，他没意味着批评中国，而且他没说自己的看法，他只是弄清记者的意思，提出问题，其实在最后的部分里，他表示他跟你同意。有可能你说错是因为你的英文能力还是有限或者这样的话题让你有点敏感，可是说prejudice比较过分了。

oh~ really? Please read "中华人民共和国收养法" (1992)clearly:第八条 收养人只能收养一名子女。

收养孤儿或者残疾儿童可以不受收养人无子女和年满三十五周岁以及收养一名的限制。

I have to go to sleep.

I am so glad to talk with you !

Good night!

Just for your information, here is the link to "中华人民共和国收养法" (1992), and the rules specify that "第六条 收养人应当同时具备下列条件： （一）无子女； （二）有抚养教育被收养人的能力； （三）年满三十五周岁。" But I don't know the situation in 1989. Do you know about that?

http://news.xinhuanet.com/legal/2005-11/10/content_3760815.htm

You said "As far as I know ,it's not true!" responding to the remark in the article, "Besides, you already have a child, you wouldn't be allowed to adopt another under the one-child policy."

And hamshack asked you a question, "perhaps the rules were rather different in 1989 when this happened?" I'm afraid I must say your "answer" is way off the mark.

国内多数学者认为，可以把1970年作为计划生育开始的年份。虽然早自60年代中期开始，我国许多城市就已开始宣传和实施计划生育，但它们多是倡导性的、局部性的。只是到了1970年以后，全国广大城乡才普遍开展计划生育，而且力度越来越大，对我国生育率的下降产生了明显的作用。因此，我们根据许多专家和学者的意见，将1970年作为估算我国因实行计划生育而减少的出生人数的时间起点。

1982年党的十二大确定计划生育为基本国策.

2001年12月29日<<人口与计划生育法>>经全国人大通过2002年9月1日正式实施

At the beginning the this report:

"I once lost a little girl who was like a daughter to me. It was the winter of 1990, and I was working as a journalist and radio presenter in Nanjing"

Which proves that the time is close to the 2001,so you should follow the 2001年12月29日<<人口与计划生育法>>.It's the first time the one-chind policy come into being a formal law.In this law ,it is said you can't give birth to the second baby which doesn't mean you can't not raise 2 babys.

"I have to admit that I heard something about killing or abandoning the girl babys in China. But it was a long ，long time ago I heard about it. Whatever ! If it really happen ,which must happen in some minority situations ."

Please explain to me how 20 years ago is a "long,long time ago" or exactly how many babies have to be killed to receive more than a "Whatever!"

I don't think anyone here thinks that Western culture, whatever that is, is perfect or that China should copy it. Does that mean we can't learn about the darker sides of Chinese history? Doesn't this recent history affect how people interact with each other today? I am truly happy that you had such a loving home. Does that mean the stories of other people who have not had such a blessing should not be heard?

If you really feel that this story does harm by not telling the whole truth, then do your part to share the good things you know about and the wonderful story of your childhood. Don't criticize someone else for telling their story from their own experience.If there are facts in this story you know are wrong, please please tell us. If you feel that we also need to know about the good side of China's history, please share that too.

Would you please answer the question (2) in hamshack's post?

> perhaps the rules were rather different in 1989 when this happened?!?

I don't get what do you mean! Can you point out what I don't know specifically?

I think you have a prejudice of China.You don't even figure out why Chinese government implement the one-child policy.

Hi sibuliao

1 - ".I am so confused why she blamed so much to the one-child policy."

I think the author blames the policy because the it adds to the pressure of the 2000 year old tradition. Now you only have one chance to get a boy and more land....

2 - "Besides, you already have a child, you wouldn't be allowed to adopt another under the one-child policy." As far as I know ,it's not true!"

You may know better then me on this one but perhaps the rules were rather different in 1989 when this happened?!?

4 - I agree with most of this point. People tend to judge other people based on there own values that are instilled in there own country. A lack of education and a lot desperation will make people do desperate things to survive. It's a sad fact.

There is a lot we don't know about this world, but don't worry. As the saying goes, what you don't know can't hurt you.

Plus:

You know what? The most lucky thing in the world for me is to be a girl! What hell is wrong to be a girl?

我重新用英文写了一篇：

Firstly I want to say I am appreciate that I can speak english ,although I need more hard working for the reason my english is not good enough.So I can browse any western website I want except some websites halted by Chinese government such as Youtube and Facebook.I read some news about the Google's challenge to China.The interesting thing is that you can hear the totally different voices of the correlative information about China, about everything. That's why I learn english but obviously english has more functions ! Besides I want to emphsis that I learn english for myself ,not my family ,teachers, or my country. One of my American teachers says we learn english for improving China's competitive power in the world which makes me feel odd.

Recently , a report published in the website http://www.guardian.co.uk/ captured my attention immediately. The headline of this report is ' China's Lost Girls',Please take a look:http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/2010/jan/23/xinran-china-girls.Well , I thought both you and me would definitely be shocked !Even I am a chinese ,I am shocked absolutely which proves that 'abandoned girl- baby' is not a common thing happend in China.The report metioned that ‘the old village custom of killing girl babies was extremely common in provinces such as Henan, Shandong, Shanxi and Northern Jiangsu’.My hometown is Huaian , a city in northern Jiangsu.It 's a bit smaller than Nanjing . I live in downtown , the urban part of Huaian.We can consume anything we need here just like Nanjing.We also have hypermarkets ，big emporiums，clearn streets, several beautiful parks,a funny zoo, convenient transportations such as buses ,taxies，book stores which are my favourite places，and so on.But Huaian is not diverting as much as Nanjing. What I wanna say ? I am a girl and the only child in my family.My parents love me indeed. I have not found any' abandoned girl- baby' thing around me until now ,and I did not feel any strong gender discrimination in my 22 living years besides the days spent in my hometown.But I don't deny it .There is a phenomena of gender discrimination exiting exactly in China.

There are 3 kinds of lies in the world : lie , damned lie, statistic lie. That is why I always hold a dubitable attitude of all kinds of news and media .I think most media just tell a statistic lie. I don't care whether you are chinese media or foreign media. I just hold a dubitable and cautious attiude.I respect the truth mostly which I think is right .

To my knowledge ，the report exaggerates parts of the truth and some statements need more evidence to be proved.Here are my questiones ,doubts and opinions：

1. The plight that befell many girl babies in rural China: 'Girl babies don't count,' has nothing to do with the one-child policy.It comes from the 2,000-year-old feudal thoughts and chinese long-time close culture .I am so confused why she blamed so much to the one-child policy.

2. The journalist wrote: " Besides, you already have a child, you wouldn't be allowed to adopt another under the one-child policy." As far as I know ,it's not true! The one-child policy doesn't allow you give birth to two children or more physically except the twins which doesn't mean you can't raise two babys or more.However nowadays in China, if you both are borned in a one-child family ,and I mean you and your husband [or wife], you can give birth to 2 babys.And today one-child policy is not a the basic state policy anymore.

3." I was warned by personnel that if I did not act soon, the head might lose his job, and I mine, because I had disobeyed the one-child family planning policy" According to the one-child policy, if you break the law，the government will just impose a fine accordingly.I don't know why it's turned into a threaten of your job here .

4.The time of the report metioned is around 1979 to 1989. We all know and truly feel that the development of China is very fast. This year is 2010 already , and this is a World Expo year which will be held in Shanghai.Any country in the world needs a period of time to go through from poor to rich.We should put more attention to whether this kind of phenomena is decreasing .Actually it does.In contrast, this report will make western people misunderstand that China has no human rights at all.

I don't believe this report even after I know the jounalist is very respected and household in England. It's a papradox that I feel so sad about the story at the same time.I have to admit that I heard something about killing or abandoning the girl babys in China. But it was a long ，long time ago I heard about it. Whatever ! If it really happen ,which must happen in some minority situations .Now China is a powerful , complex ,and up-to-date country with sustained and rapid development of economy .

I wish I wouldn't look at the conversation sections before actually trying to learn something....There goes my dinner break!

Having said that. It was worth it. Thanks for the post Tal

Glad to be of service!

哦，还有我很喜欢日本漫画，小时候看了很多日本的动画片，例如《神探柯南》《灌篮高手》《樱桃小丸子》《叮当猫》等等，日本的动漫在中国确实很受欢迎呢！

说到电影，我没看过多少日本的电影，不过我真的很喜欢燕尾蝶这部电影！这个导演很有思想，我有个中国朋友就是个岩井俊二迷！

really?

Interesting! when did you guys start to change the traditional ideas of women? Can you give me some details?

啊对不起，你问我的是日本传统的观念吧。确实，以前有这样的‘理想’——女人毕业大学之后先当‘OL’最长五六年，再嫁到好婆家，然后抚养两个孩子（但愿是一‘好’字）就幸福了，就正常了。不用说，那时候日本的就业情况很稳定，人们都看这样是应该的。现在，保持这样的理想根本不可能。

我没看过很多日本的电影，我看过一些，比如《燕尾蝶》（我觉得导演岩井俊二很有思想），《千与千寻》，不了解日本状况，只是看报纸这么评论的。

sibuliao, 日本经济最近不太好，特别是这两三年。不管结婚了没有，有孩子没有，不管年龄多大，我们都为了生活而工作。其实结婚之后不必工作有余的女人当然也不少，在现在的情况下我觉得她们算是很幸运的人。‘30岁’没什么特别的意思（或许你看过大约20年前的日本电视剧里30岁之后的女人被当做过时，是吗？）。

So ... 你的中文其实走到中国都混得走了，当然如果写的方言那就不一样了哈 means, with my Chinese I should generally be able to communicate if I went to China, although I would have problems if people are speaking 方言? 呵呵，反正我要请你用英语解释这么简单的句子，走到中国肯定有问题吧。给你添麻烦了，谢谢
对了，我是女的，呵呵。

首先我知道你是个学习中文的日本人，其次我还想问在传统日本人的观念里，女人30岁之后是不是不应该再去工作，在家里相夫教子啊？

Thank you！I think you have to do like that .I mean people have to be responsible of their words spoken out.

zhen, I think you're being seen as a 'bro' again!

in china ，wen you looked a man but you don't known his name and kooked him old than you， at this time you can called him “大哥”“兄弟”“老师”“哥们儿”，“混得走”=“吃得通” means， Under certain circumstances barrier-free，usually ， in chongqing and chengdu them his a hibit it's a lot of sentence end +”了“or”哈“

Hi, do you mind translating what you just wrote into English? It's a bit difficult for me to understand. Thanks and sorry for the trouble!
* Don't worry if you can't though, I'm sure someone else can help me a few hours from now.

大哥你的中文其实走到中国都混得走了，当然如果写的方言那就不一样了哈

对于媒体，我们要始终保持怀疑的态度，这才是一个文明社会应该有的严谨态度。
我很高兴，听到中国年轻人说这样。是对的。我们也愿意和你们讨论这些问题，不断想要保持客观性。还要强调‘始终’这很重要的一部分；随便怀疑随便盲信是不可以的。

（对不起，我的中文还很差。）

我不太相信她哦 应为我在中国大陆 跟我看到的有很大的差异 我只知道中国政府就可以50%以上都是腐败分子

资本主义用宏观调控？

我尊敬她，感谢她指出了中国在“重男轻女”问题，这很好，我们不能回避事实，显然我不否认中国存在这个问题。我只是想强调，我们应该更客观地看这个问题，不能带有个人情绪化！还有很高兴和你们讨论这些，让我促进对中西方文化的了解。

我佩服你的自信，但是我还觉得你吹毛求疵！中国政府用宏观调控啊！真是服了他们。还是资本主义咯，没关系。现在我们人类也许认为那种经济模型肯定最好的，肯定永恒的, 可是告诉你其实就是秋后的蚂蚱-蹦不了几天。

关于薛欣然与《China's Lost Girls》，我想我要相信她，她是一个很有经验的记者，她又勇敢又同情心的。你应该尊敬她。

我是学经济的，中国经济和西方经济不一样，中国不完全是市场经济，还有中国政府的宏观调控！西方经济则完全由市场调节！

还有关于那篇china’s lost girls报道确实有些不恰当的地方：

1.年份是1979年——1989年，而中国国内的变化日翻月新，一天一个样，今年已经是2010年了。

2.即使是计划生育政策的实施，如果你已经有孩子的话，按理是可以领养另外一个孩子的，计划生育指的是只准你生一个孩子，不是只准你抚养一个孩子！

3.there is 3 kinds of lies in the world：lie ，damned lie， statistic lie。只说部分真相也相当于撒谎！对于媒体，我们要始终保持怀疑的态度，这才是一个文明社会应该有的严谨态度。

可能把，不过现今我觉得中国经济模型跟西方一样。

不能说“同性恋也引进了”，同性恋很早就有了，大部分同性恋是由于基因决定的，所以不可否认，在很久以前，人类就有同性恋，不过我诚实地说，中国还没有开放到同意同性恋结婚的地步！

我不同意中国会成为西方的再版！中国有其特殊的复杂性和特殊性。

不对中国现在已经变了，什么类型的人都有了，就连西方的同性恋也引进了

sibuliao

It's true that Xinran's stories come mostly from China's recent past and that China is changing. But the things she speaks of are still relevant I think. In the west, it's a commonly held belief that we must be aware of and try to understand history, so that we can make the future different.

Moreover, China is still mostly a peasant society, isn't it? 大多数中国人还是农民，对吧？Is it possible to believe that the attitudes towards female babies Xinran describes, 那个农民的“重男轻女”,has disappeared after only 20 to 30 years?

Right now China is certainly becoming a more affluent country, but this new wealth is concentrated in the cities, in the hands of relatively few. My own great fear is that history will repeat itself in China when the current boom comes to an end. In my view economic growth based on a western capitalist model is unsustainable (不能维持的). When it ends, what then?

诚实地讲，中国确实存在这种骇人听闻的事件，作为一个中国人，我听了也感到十分震惊！但这并不代表大多数中国人，我自己也是个女孩子，22岁，在南京上大学，我的家乡就住在江苏以北的城市，我的妈妈和爸爸非常爱我，我们家里只有我一个女孩子，在中国的22年里，我没有感到一丝的男女性别歧视，我们是平等的。中国从“封闭文化”到“完全开放的文化”需要一个很长的过程，任何国家从“贫穷”到“富裕“都不能避免这个过程，我们要把注意力放在“重男轻女”这种现象在减少，在慢慢消失，随着中国社会的进步！

我个人觉得，这样大言不惭的说中国重男轻女是不负责任的，这样会给外国人一个错觉，中国重男轻女的现象很严重！而且中国在慢慢改革，我们80后出生的年轻人如果是独生子的话，以后结婚可以允许有2个孩子！

如果有更多的关于中国的问题，可以发Email给我，我正在努力的学英语和法语，我在寻找language partner，我很高兴成为朋友！

Hi sibuliao! You said 'I think', so is that a feeling, or do you have evidence that the truth here has been exaggerated? Can you tell us what part(s) you think were exaggerated?